Australian Politics Forum - socialists and the Chinese Communist Party

tickleandrose Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4013 Gender:	Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Reply #45 - Jan 27^th, 2022 at 2:31pm China has market captialism as its core economic policy not socialism.
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thegreatdivide Gold Member Offline Australian Politics<br /> Posts: 12978 Gender:	Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Reply #46 - Jan 27^th, 2022 at 2:58pm tickleandrose wrote on Jan 27^th, 2022 at 2:31pm: China has market captialism as its core economic policy not socialism. Nonsense. China is abused by Trump for NOT abiding by the rules of MARKET capitalism, which disallow state subsidization of industry - a Chinese specialty.
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Frank

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Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party
Reply #47 - Jan 27^th, 2022 at 3:42pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 27^th, 2022 at 10:56am:

Frank wrote on Jan 26^th, 2022 at 8:37pm:

Why so many socialist Chinese billionnaires

Because Deng accepted that some need to get rich before the nation can get rich.

But the CCP remains true to its socialist 'common prosperity' goal, which is why they have started to crack down on the 'funny money' tricks of financial capitalism, and are concentrating on developing the real goods and services sector of the economy.

So private ownership of vast quantities of the means of production (capital) is socialism coz the Party can always confiscate it and make you disappear. Capitalism is the exact same except the Communist party can do nuffin' about your privately owned capital.

Good one.

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freediver

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Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party
Reply #48 - Jan 27^th, 2022 at 6:34pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 27^th, 2022 at 2:58pm:

tickleandrose wrote on Jan 27^th, 2022 at 2:31pm:

China has market captialism as its core economic policy not socialism.

Nonsense. China is abused by Trump for NOT abiding by the rules of MARKET capitalism, which disallow state subsidization of industry - a Chinese specialty.

Again, there is no contradiction. We could criticise America for having illiberal trade policies or too much welfare, but that would not mean that the US does not have market capitalism rather than socialism as it's core economic policy. This is the second time this has been explained to you. Are you having difficulty understanding the concept? Or has the propaganda ministry demanded that Trump stop criticising them and give them a little applause instead before they admit to using free market capitalism?

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The CCP has the support of >90% of the Chinese population

Nice of them to let their people know.

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 27^th, 2022 at 10:56am:

Because Deng accepted that some need to get rich before the nation can get rich.

Duh. This is the reason everyone, including the CCP, ends up embracing capitalism rather than socialism.

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 27^th, 2022 at 10:56am:

But the CCP remains true to its socialist 'common prosperity' goal,

But not the socialist 'socialism' goal? Is this how they embrace capitalism in the name of socialism?

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They are welcome to the adversarial, gridlocked, achieve-nothing rabbles aka "democracy".

China's GDP per capita is now about US$10k, thanks to their rapid embrace of capitalist principles. In the US it is over 6 times as high. China also has far more people below the poverty line. China is also still exempt from many trade rules, for example governing intellectual property, on the grounds that it is still a third world country and should be given a leg up to help them escape poverty. Eventually they will have to give that up too.

The Chinese people will not experience the wealth and freedom of other western nations until they complete the transition to a free market economy as well as adopt democracy beyond the confines of the CCP. They are not even half way there yet.

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« Last Edit: Jan 27^th, 2022 at 6:46pm by freediver »

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thegreatdivide

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Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party
Reply #49 - Jan 27^th, 2022 at 7:38pm

freediver wrote on Jan 27^th, 2022 at 6:34pm:

Again, there is no contradiction. We could criticise America for having illiberal trade policies or too much welfare....

No we couldn't criticize the US for having "too much welfare", what planet are you living on? As for "illiberal trade policies" the US claims to be the bastion of liberalism and free-trade.

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but that would not mean that the US does not have market capitalism rather than socialism as it's core economic policy.

GIGO....

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This is the second time this has been explained to you. Are you having difficulty understanding the concept?

Addressed above; your argument suffers from GIGO because it has no relationship to reality.

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Or has the propaganda ministry demanded that Trump stop criticising them and give them a little applause instead before they admit to using free market capitalism?

They don't use free-market capitalism in the manner Trump demands of them ie, without state subsidization of industry.

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The CCP has the support of >90% of the Chinese population. Nice of them to let their people know.

Harvard spent some time in China several years ago; satisfaction with the central government was >90%.

cf with the 50/50 polling in the adversarial multi party rabbles aka 'democracy', and the increasingly wide-spread disillusionment with that obsolete electoral system, eg measured by the collapse in political party membership.

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Duh. This is the reason everyone, including the CCP, ends up embracing capitalism rather than socialism.

Nonsense, the CCP embraces "socialism with Chinese characteristics " (including state subsidization of industry etc.)

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But not the socialist 'socialism' goal? Is this how they embrace capitalism in the name of socialism?

Tip: your definition of socialism is the cause of your repeated GIGO argumentation.

The "socialist 'socialism' goal" ( a real gem of clarity, that one...) IS common prosperity.

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China's GDP per capita is now about US$10k, thanks to their rapid embrace of capitalist principles. In the US it is over 6 times as high. China also has far more people below the poverty line. China is also still exempt from many trade rules, for example governing intellectual property, on the grounds that it is still a third world country and should be given a leg up to help them escape poverty. Eventually they will have to give that up too.

China will be double, then triple the size of the US before the 100th anniversary of the CCP, all achieved via the correct combination of 'capitalism ' and 'socialism' (regardless of your ideological definition of these terms...)

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The Chinese people will not experience the wealth and freedom of other western nations until they complete the transition to a free market economy as well as adopt democracy beyond the confines of the CCP. They are not even half way there yet.

Hint: the fabulous roll-out of the world's most modern and extensive HS rail network was not achieved by the "free market economy". Free markets aren't interested in such vital public infrastructure...which is why the US doesn't have even 50 kms of HS rail, not to mention why Biden is having trouble getting Congress to fund the repair of some bridges...

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« Last Edit: Jan 27^th, 2022 at 7:48pm by thegreatdivide »

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Frank

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Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party
Reply #50 - Jan 27^th, 2022 at 8:13pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 27^th, 2022 at 7:38pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 27^th, 2022 at 6:34pm:

[quote]Duh. This is the reason everyone, including the CCP, ends up embracing capitalism rather than socialism.

Nonsense, the CCP embraces "socialism with Chinese characteristics " (including state subsidization of industry etc.)

Subsidising industry is not a particularly Chinese characteristic.

So what ARE the Chinese characteristics of 'socialism with Chinese characteristics'?

Oppressions, dobbing in, mass rallies, ra-ra-ra, ethnic supremacy, delusion about cultural supremacy despite a history of humiliation and inferiority.

Chauvinism, in a word. Socialism with Chinese chauvinism.

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Frank

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Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party
Reply #51 - Jan 27^th, 2022 at 8:16pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 27^th, 2022 at 7:38pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 27^th, 2022 at 6:34pm:

[quote]But not the socialist 'socialism' goal? Is this how they embrace capitalism in the name of socialism?

Tip: your definition of socialism is the cause of your repeated GIGO argumentation.

The "socialist 'socialism' goal" ( a real gem of clarity, that one...) IS common prosperity.

Exactly the same as the aim of capitalism - common prosperity by individual effort. by every able citizen of the polity.

A moral dimension entirely missing or deformed in the 'socialist' lunacy.

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Frank

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Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party
Reply #52 - Jan 27^th, 2022 at 8:23pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 27^th, 2022 at 7:38pm:

China will be double, then triple the size of the US before the 100th anniversary of the CCP, all achieved via the correct combination of 'capitalism ' and 'socialism' (regardless of your ideological definition of these terms...)

Spoken like a snake oil merchant - correct combination. Scientific socialism, innit, titration is all.

That's what will bring China down - too much idiotic ideology, party control, cowering before idiotic party brutes, repression of thinking

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issuevoter

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Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party
Reply #53 - Jan 27^th, 2022 at 8:35pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 27^th, 2022 at 11:09am:

issuevoter wrote on Jan 27^th, 2022 at 6:57am:

Politically, the goal of socialism is to make all citizens wards of the state.

I note the name 'dinosaur' is associated with your posts, which would explain the sheer absurdity of your statement above.

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Thus cementing control.

No, rather cementing the neurons in your befuddled brain.

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This is the purpose of UBI.

Oh god, the cement has already set....

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Socialists in the capitalist West, still cling to the idea of a Marxist utopia and are reluctant to acknowledge that the CCP, for all its "socialism" only exists by police and military force. If I said this in China, I would disappear

1. Eradication of poverty in modern AI and IT assisted economies is not utopia.

2. The CCP has the support of >90% of the Chinese population.

3. No-one in HK has 'disappeared', though some separatist democracy goons have emigrated to other Western countries. They are welcome to the adversarial, gridlocked, achieve-nothing rabbles aka "democracy".

Insults and contradiction. Is this your best shot? The police and military are most definitely instruments of the CCP, and to state otherwise is to believe a fairy-godmother. The forces' principal is to prevent what THEY call "reactionaries." As for your 90%, the CCP is fully aware that to tolerate dissent is political suicide.

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MeisterEckhart Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 12583 Gender:	Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Reply #54 - Jan 27^th, 2022 at 8:38pm Something that foreigners in China have commented on is how many ordinary Chinese admire Hitler. The Chinese appear to admire strongmen in power.
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Frank Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 46568 Gender:	Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Reply #55 - Jan 27^th, 2022 at 8:52pm MeisterEckhart wrote on Jan 27^th, 2022 at 8:38pm: Something that foreigners in China have commented on is how many ordinary Chinese admire Hitler. The Chinese appear to admire strongmen in power. They are national, Han national, socialists. Socialism Fascism with Chinese characteristics.
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freediver

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Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party
Reply #56 - Jan 27^th, 2022 at 10:06pm

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No we couldn't criticize the US for having "too much welfare", what planet are you living on?

The planet where do not not take Trump seriously. He is not even president any more. Yet the propaganda ministry wants you to define capitalism around his criticism of your country?

We can't really take you seriously either. You have trouble understanding the point. Is English your second language?

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Nonsense, the CCP embraces "socialism with Chinese characteristics "

This is correctly translated into English as "capitalism".

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The "socialist 'socialism' goal" ( a real gem of clarity, that one...) IS common prosperity.

Ah capitalism. Where you tolerate all those billionaires because everyone is better off. Nothing to do with socialism at all.

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China will be double, then triple the size of the US before the 100th anniversary of the CCP, all achieved via the correct combination of 'capitalism ' and 'socialism'

Now we are getting somewhere. Would you say that in this combination, the socialism part is rapidly decreasing, and the capitalism part is rapidly increasing?

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Captain Nemo Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 10388 Melbourne Gender:	Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Reply #57 - Jan 28^th, 2022 at 12:04am
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tickleandrose

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Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party
Reply #58 - Jan 28^th, 2022 at 9:54am

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 27^th, 2022 at 2:58pm:

tickleandrose wrote on Jan 27^th, 2022 at 2:31pm:

China has market captialism as its core economic policy not socialism.

Nonsense. China is abused by Trump for NOT abiding by the rules of MARKET capitalism, which disallow state subsidization of industry - a Chinese specialty.

You have to look through the propaganda, and see the real policy underneath. It is a market capitalism, because the product that they produce, would be sold at a price acceptable to the global market. And the purchase of raw material is set at market value as well.

There are a mixture of state and privately owned entities, and in China, there is an emphasis on state owned. This is what the Chinese government called as the 'Chinese characteristic'. In their mind, state owned means people owned, which means socialism with an unique flavour.

However, I do argue that, the people do not actually own the state owned company per se, it is actually controlled by the elite few, and in real life, not different to CEOs, and board share holders. So therefore, I cannot agree that this is a socialist economic system.

In a real socialist economic system, the people controls the company via democratic votes. So the workers, the cleaners, etc etc all have a vote to where the direction of the company will go, and what sort of things they will produce. Which is very similar to farmer's coop that we seen in Australia.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party
Reply #59 - Jan 28^th, 2022 at 3:52pm

Frank wrote on Jan 27^th, 2022 at 8:13pm:

Subsidising industry is not a particularly Chinese characteristic.

But is sure is frowned on by Trump shouting 'unfair competition'

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So what ARE the Chinese characteristics of 'socialism with Chinese characteristics'?

State planning plus market economy.

As a commentator on the ABC's 'The China century said: "when capitalism and communsim come togter, WOW!!"

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Oppressions, dobbing in, mass rallies, ra-ra-ra, ethnic supremacy, delusion about cultural supremacy despite a history of humiliation and inferiority.

Western 'individual sovereignty' ideological propaganda.

The CCP has >90% popular support. (Harvard study).

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Chauvinism, in a word. Socialism with Chinese chauvinism.

Admittedly the Chinese are somewhat sensitive after their "century of humiliation"...which you will be able to characterize in an infinite number of ways to suit your delusional 'individual sovereignty' ideology.

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« Last Edit: Jan 28^th, 2022 at 5:13pm by thegreatdivide »

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