Australian Politics Forum - socialists and the Chinese Communist Party

thegreatdivide

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Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party
Reply #60 - Jan 28^th, 2022 at 4:04pm

issuevoter wrote on Jan 27^th, 2022 at 8:35pm:

Insults and contradiction. Is this your best shot?

The goal of socialism is common prosperity. Your statement was sheer ideological nonsense, yet you want respect...

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The police and military are most definitely instruments of the CCP, and to state otherwise is to believe a fairy-godmother.

I didn't state otherwise; indeed they are instruments of ANY government.

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The forces' principal is to prevent what THEY call "reactionaries."

Democracy ideologues ARE reactionaries, especially when they want to destroy the sovereignty of their own nation.

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As for your 90%, the CCP is fully aware that to tolerate dissent is political suicide.[/size]

Harvard study poll of citizens, not the CCP (google it).

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thegreatdivide

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Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party
Reply #61 - Jan 28^th, 2022 at 4:19pm

Frank wrote on Jan 27^th, 2022 at 8:16pm:

Exactly the same as the aim of capitalism - common prosperity by individual effort. by every able citizen of the polity.

Which ignores the different abilities and circumstances of individuals, which is why capitalism always results in wealth alongside entrenched poverty. That's why Marx said: "from each according to his ability... to each according to his need".

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A moral dimension entirely missing or deformed in the 'socialist' lunacy.

Common prosperity for all, not merely the few as results from capitalist greed, is moral.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party
Reply #62 - Jan 28^th, 2022 at 4:30pm

Frank wrote on Jan 27^th, 2022 at 8:23pm:

Spoken like a snake oil merchant - correct combination. Scientific socialism, innit, titration is all.

'Scientific socialism', cf pragmatic combination of 'socialism' and 'capitalism' (since you objected to the phrase "correct combination" as snake oil); nevertheless the combination of the two principles, 'state planning' and 'private enterprise', is unbeatable.

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That's what will bring China down - too much idiotic ideology, party control, cowering before idiotic party brutes, repression of thinking

Not long to wait to find out.

Certainly the US's paranoia about loss of global hegemony to China will make China's socialist journey more difficult, but .....may the better system win.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party
Reply #63 - Jan 28^th, 2022 at 4:36pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on Jan 27^th, 2022 at 8:38pm:

Something that foreigners in China have commented on is how many ordinary Chinese admire Hitler. The Chinese appear to admire strongmen in power.

Hitler did lift Germany out of the morass created by American capitalism's world depression, and succeeded in building the finest autobahn system in the world.

But Hitler went to war, something the Chinese are not interested in doing.

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thegreatdivide Gold Member Offline Australian Politics<br /> Posts: 12978 Gender:	Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Reply #64 - Jan 28^th, 2022 at 4:38pm Frank wrote on Jan 27^th, 2022 at 8:52pm: They are national, Han national, socialists. Socialism Fascism with Chinese characteristics. Still amusing yourself with silly word games?
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MeisterEckhart

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Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party
Reply #65 - Jan 28^th, 2022 at 4:57pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 28^th, 2022 at 4:36pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Jan 27^th, 2022 at 8:38pm:

Something that foreigners in China have commented on is how many ordinary Chinese admire Hitler. The Chinese appear to admire strongmen in power.

Hitler did lift Germany out of the morass created by American capitalism's world depression, and succeeded in building the finest autobahn system in the world.

But Hitler went to war, something the Chinese are not interested in doing.

And all them Jews he murdered.

But, then, the Chinese had Mao, as did the Tibetans.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party
Reply #66 - Jan 28^th, 2022 at 5:01pm

freediver wrote on Jan 27^th, 2022 at 10:06pm:

The planet where do not not take Trump seriously. He is not even president any more. Yet the propaganda ministry wants you to define capitalism around his criticism of your country?

We can't really take you seriously either. You have trouble understanding the point. Is English your second language?

It would certainly help if you would drop your silly word games.
China's goal is common prosperity, much of the Western press are bleating about what this will mean for 'market efficiency', and the effects on the wealthy.... poor darlings....

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This is correctly translated into English as "capitalism".

Only in your ideologically befuddled brain...

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Ah capitalism. Where you tolerate all those billionaires because everyone is better off. Nothing to do with socialism at all.

Addressed above. The Western press are busy denigrating the CCP's latest efforts to rein in capitalist excesses (in real estate, financial engineering, and private education etc)

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Now we are getting somewhere. Would you say that in this combination, the socialism part is rapidly decreasing, and the capitalism part is rapidly increasing?

Difficult to know, what I CAN say is the CCP is the most pragmatic political party on the planet and will adjust its policies as required, on its quest to achieve common prosperity for all, within a "prosperous socialist society in all respects" by 2049.

Whereas we can be sure the US in 2049 will still be disfigured by those black inner-city suburbs Trump spoke of in 2016: ""You are living in poverty, your neighborhoods are like war zones, your schools and hospitals are broken, your young men are in prison"..

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thegreatdivide

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Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party
Reply #67 - Jan 28^th, 2022 at 5:12pm

Captain Nemo wrote on Jan 28^th, 2022 at 12:04am:

https://i.imgur.com/7D0kFUT.jpg

Grin

Biden today reaffirmed the US's intention to ensure the 21st century is "The American Century".

I can see US diplomacy increasingly resorting to subterfuge, as China relentlessly nears parity with the US economy.....

We live in 'exciting times'.

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Frank

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Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party
Reply #68 - Jan 28^th, 2022 at 5:21pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 28^th, 2022 at 4:38pm:

Frank wrote on Jan 27^th, 2022 at 8:52pm:

They are national, Han national, socialists.

Socialism Fascism with Chinese characteristics.

Still amusing yourself with silly word games?

China IS a nationalist and a socialist one party dictatorship.

It differs from the Soviet in the complete absence of internationalising its 'socialism with Chinese characteristics". It is not supporting any international communist parties trying to introduce socialism. In this sense and culturally it is completely Han nationalistic - it doesn't want to export its national socialism to the barbarians, which everyone who is not Chinese.
It is happy to export the Chinese to act as a fifth column in other countries but has no sense of internationalism as the Marxists have had ever since the First International in the 1860s.

Instead, it has a colonialist plan through its Ball and Chain program, turning poorer countries into vassals through debt. It is a Nazi, national socialist, dictatorship with Chinese characteristics.

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« Last Edit: Jan 28^th, 2022 at 5:28pm by Frank »

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thegreatdivide

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Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party
Reply #69 - Jan 28^th, 2022 at 5:35pm

tickleandrose wrote on Jan 28^th, 2022 at 9:54am:

You have to look through the propaganda, and see the real policy underneath.

Common prosperity for all is not propaganda, it is achievable because China has all the resources, productive capacity, and system of government to achieve it.

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It is a market capitalism, because the product that they produce, would be sold at a price acceptable to the global market. And the purchase of raw material is set at market value as well.

Yes, correct concerning the external economy; but internally China is implementing common prosperity for all, as noted above.

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There are a mixture of state and privately owned entities, and in China, there is an emphasis on state owned. This is what the Chinese government called as the 'Chinese characteristic'. In their mind, state owned means people owned, which means socialism with an unique flavour.

Correct (more or less).

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However, I do argue that, the people do not actually own the state owned company per se, it is actually controlled by the elite few, and in real life, not different to CEOs, and board share holders. So therefore, I cannot agree that this is a socialist economic system.

The highlighted: the government owns the SOEs, not the people, but certainly neither 'the elite few'. Jack Ma certainly doesn't control the state-owned Chinese railways (the most extensive HS rail system in the world).

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In a real socialist economic system, the people controls the company via democratic votes. So the workers, the cleaners, etc etc all have a vote to where the direction of the company will go, and what sort of things they will produce. Which is very similar to farmer's coop that we seen in Australia.

Regardless of what "real socialism" is, China's "socialism with Chinese characteristics" is certainly not US style capitalism.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party
Reply #70 - Jan 28^th, 2022 at 5:45pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on Jan 28^th, 2022 at 4:57pm:

And all them Jews he murdered.

But, then, the Chinese had Mao, as did the Tibetans.

All bygone history, like the genocide of Australian aborigines; the current CCP is nothing like Mao's party; even so, the disaster under Mao was accidental not deliberate:
"The Great Chinese Famine was caused by a combination of radical agricultural policies, social pressure, economic mismanagement, and natural disasters such as droughts and floods in farming regions."

Of course the Chinese are still sensitive about their "century of humiliation" (because it is so recent) at the hands of the Western powers, so if you go sticking your nose into their internal affairs you might receive a less than friendly reception.

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« Last Edit: Jan 28^th, 2022 at 6:37pm by thegreatdivide »

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thegreatdivide

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Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party
Reply #71 - Jan 28^th, 2022 at 6:16pm

Frank wrote on Jan 28^th, 2022 at 5:21pm:

China IS a nationalist and a socialist one party dictatorship.

I'll accept that statement, except the word "dictatorship"; a consensus one-party meritocracy can be based on local democratic election of government officials who work their way through the party ranks.

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It differs from the Soviet in the complete absence of internationalising its 'socialism with Chinese characteristics".

Yes, the CCP is at pains to say it is not interested in exporting its model to any other country.

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It is not supporting any international communist parties trying to introduce socialism. In this sense and culturally it is completely Han nationalistic - it doesn't want to export its national socialism to the barbarians, which everyone who is not Chinese.

Well...I'm not in disagreement so far....except that the CCP, (unlike eg Trump), does believe in multi-lateralism.

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It is happy to export the Chinese to act as a fifth column in other countries but has no sense of internationalism as the Marxists have had ever since the First International in the 1860s.

Well... China has witnessed the demise of the USSR, but the CCP's desire for multilateralism in international affairs does display a certain socialist internationalism.

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Instead, it has a colonialist plan through its Ball and Chain program, turning poorer countries into vassals through debt. It is a Nazi, national socialist, dictatorship with Chinese characteristics.

.

The highlighted: priceless, thanks for the laugh....(but the so called 'debt-diplomacy' is BS)

The Belt and Road initiative is building much needed infrastructure especially in Asia and Africa, something the useless US-based IMF (Instant Misery Fund) didn't dream of doing, during the 70 years after WW2.

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freediver

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Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party
Reply #72 - Jan 28^th, 2022 at 6:37pm

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As a commentator on the ABC's 'The China century said: "when capitalism and communsim come togter, WOW!!"

Who was this commentator?

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It would certainly help if you would drop your silly word games.

Does the word socialism still have any real meaning to the Chinese Communist Party?

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Difficult to know

No it isn't. The Chinese people were starving to death under the yoke of socialism a generation ago, thanks to the CCP, which you describe as the most pragmatic in the world. So pragmatic, they realised that they would have no country left to run if everyone starved.

Now they are starting their own businesses and becoming billionaires. It is rare indeed for people to see such a transition in one generation, or even a lifetime. You cannot give an example of a country that has ever transitioned so rapidly.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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MeisterEckhart Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 12583 Gender:	Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Reply #73 - Jan 28^th, 2022 at 7:16pm thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 28^th, 2022 at 5:45pm: Of course the Chinese are still sensitive about their "century of humiliation" But not about the near-century of their humiliation at the hands of their mad leaders.
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Frank

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Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party
Reply #74 - Jan 28^th, 2022 at 8:21pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on Jan 28^th, 2022 at 7:16pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 28^th, 2022 at 5:45pm:

Of course the Chinese are still sensitive about their "century of humiliation"

But not about the near-century of their humiliation at the hands of their mad leaders.

Touche!

Albania versus China.

Like it.

Go on, boys.

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