Forum

 
  Back to OzPolitic.com   Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
  Forum Home Album HelpSearch Recent Rules LoginRegister  
 

Pages: 1 ... 66 67 68 69 
Send Topic Print
Modern Monetary Theory (MMT) (Read 92309 times)
thegreatdivide
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics<br
/>

Posts: 12480
Gender: male
Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)
Reply #1005 - Nov 9th, 2024 at 11:50am
 
Is China waking up to the mainstream  deficit and debt delusion?

SCMP

A comparison of debt ratios

(From Mandy Zuo)

Finance minister Lan Foan says China has a low government debt ratio compared to emerging economies and advanced economies.

He named Japan and the US, with ratios of 249.7 per cent and 118.7 per cent, respectively.

China has 85 trillion yuan (US$11.87 trillion) in total government debt, a ratio of 67.5 per cent.


.....

Trump (correctly) wants to increase government debt  (and cut taxes); but Musk (the new minister for "sensible government spending") is fooled by neoclassical economic orthodoxy, and wants to cut "wasteful government spending" - code for government services.


Meanwhile, Oz government debt to gdp ratio is c. 40% .....and Oz gdp gowth is a fraction of either the US or China, and lower than Japan. 

Labor's slavish adherence to balanced budget dogma will likely see Dutton elected next year ....ouch.
Back to top
« Last Edit: Nov 9th, 2024 at 12:23pm by thegreatdivide »  
 
IP Logged
 
Bobby.
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 103063
Melbourne
Gender: male
Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)
Reply #1006 - Nov 9th, 2024 at 11:56am
 
Hi TGD,
why don't all countries go back to the Gold standard? -

stop all this silly debt creation and funny money printing?

Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
thegreatdivide
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics<br
/>

Posts: 12480
Gender: male
Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)
Reply #1007 - Nov 9th, 2024 at 12:15pm
 
Bobby. wrote on Nov 9th, 2024 at 11:56am:
Hi TGD,
why don't all countries go back to the Gold standard? -

stop all this silly debt creation and funny money printing?


Because the US, being the world's largest debtor country in US dollar terms,  doesn't have enough gold to 'pay on demand' any calls for payment of US external debt, in gold.

(google,  for details of Nixon's abandonment of the gold standard).

As for "funny money", bitcoin is the examplar, being merely a ponzi scheme; whereas the value of fiat currencies is based on a nation's production of real goods and services, and measured via currency-exchange rates.    
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Bobby.
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 103063
Melbourne
Gender: male
Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)
Reply #1008 - Nov 9th, 2024 at 4:39pm
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 9th, 2024 at 12:15pm:
Bobby. wrote on Nov 9th, 2024 at 11:56am:
Hi TGD,
why don't all countries go back to the Gold standard? -

stop all this silly debt creation and funny money printing?


Because the US, being the world's largest debtor country in US dollar terms,  doesn't have enough gold to 'pay on demand' any calls for payment of US external debt, in gold.

(google,  for details of Nixon's abandonment of the gold standard).

As for "funny money", bitcoin is the examplar, being merely a ponzi scheme; whereas the value of fiat currencies is based on a nation's production of real goods and services, and measured via currency-exchange rates.    



yes - I heard that Gold would have to be about US$130,000 an ounce for it to represent US dollars now
such is the enormous amount of money they have printed.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
thegreatdivide
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics<br
/>

Posts: 12480
Gender: male
Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)
Reply #1009 - Nov 10th, 2024 at 10:15am
 
Bobby. wrote on Nov 9th, 2024 at 4:39pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 9th, 2024 at 12:15pm:
Bobby. wrote on Nov 9th, 2024 at 11:56am:
Hi TGD,
why don't all countries go back to the Gold standard? -

stop all this silly debt creation and funny money printing?


Because the US, being the world's largest debtor country in US dollar terms,  doesn't have enough gold to 'pay on demand' any calls for payment of US external debt, in gold.

(google,  for details of Nixon's abandonment of the gold standard).

As for "funny money", bitcoin is the examplar, being merely a ponzi scheme; whereas the value of fiat currencies is based on a nation's production of real goods and services, and measured via currency-exchange rates.    



yes - I heard that Gold would have to be about US$130,000 an ounce for it to represent US dollars now
such is the enormous amount of money they have printed.


More to the point: due to the enormous increase in the value of global output and trade, after Asia's post WW2  rise beginning with Japan in the 60's.

Of course the amount of money in circulation had to also increase greatly.

Money of course is created out of thin air, you keep making the mistake of seeing money as a scarce commodity.

The real issues in a monetary economy are inflation, cost of living, interest rates, wages and employment, NOT debt (since money is created out of thin air).

It will be fascinating to see what Trump achieves in the US with his MAGA and "America First" policies before the mid-term elections; he is projected to double the US deficit and increase US debt.  Inflation is the unknown under Trump's policies, we will see.
Back to top
« Last Edit: Nov 10th, 2024 at 10:22am by thegreatdivide »  
 
IP Logged
 
Bobby.
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 103063
Melbourne
Gender: male
Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)
Reply #1010 - Nov 10th, 2024 at 10:30am
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 10th, 2024 at 10:15am:
More to the point: due to the enormous increase in the value of global output and trade, after Asia's post WW2  rise beginning with Japan in the 60's.

Of course the amount of money in circulation had to also increase greatly.

Money of course is created out of thin air, you keep making the mistake of seeing money as a scarce commodity.

The real issues in a monetary economy are inflation, cost of living, interest rates, wages and employment, NOT debt (since money is created out of thin air).

It will be fascinating to see what Trump achieves in the US with his MAGA and "America First" policies before the mid-term elections; he is projected to double the US deficit and increase US debt.  Inflation is the unknown under Trump's policies, we will see.



My point is that today -
Gold is worth US$2,741.57 per ounce.

If we went to the Gold standard - Gold would be worth $US 130,000 per ounce overnight -
such is the amount of money printing in the last 40 or more years.

What a windfall for people who have Gold.   Smiley
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
tallowood
Gold Member
*****
Online


Australian Politics

Posts: 5799
Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)
Reply #1011 - Nov 10th, 2024 at 12:05pm
 
Bobby. wrote on Nov 10th, 2024 at 10:30am:
thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 10th, 2024 at 10:15am:
More to the point: due to the enormous increase in the value of global output and trade, after Asia's post WW2  rise beginning with Japan in the 60's.

Of course the amount of money in circulation had to also increase greatly.

Money of course is created out of thin air, you keep making the mistake of seeing money as a scarce commodity.

The real issues in a monetary economy are inflation, cost of living, interest rates, wages and employment, NOT debt (since money is created out of thin air).

It will be fascinating to see what Trump achieves in the US with his MAGA and "America First" policies before the mid-term elections; he is projected to double the US deficit and increase US debt.  Inflation is the unknown under Trump's policies, we will see.



My point is that today -
Gold is worth US$2,741.57 per ounce.

If we went to the Gold standard - Gold would be worth $US 130,000 per ounce overnight -
such is the amount of money printing in the last 40 or more years.

What a windfall for people who have Gold.   Smiley



The United States holds the world's largest stockpile of gold reserves. The country's government has almost as many reserves as the next three largest gold-holding countries combined—Germany, Italy, and France. Russia rounds out the top five. The International Monetary Fund (IMF) is one of the top gold reserve holders with 2,814.10 metric tons (3,102.01 standard tons)—almost as much as Germany
Back to top
 

Reality is a figment of imagination
 
IP Logged
 
Bobby.
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 103063
Melbourne
Gender: male
Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)
Reply #1012 - Nov 10th, 2024 at 12:44pm
 
tallowood wrote on Nov 10th, 2024 at 12:05pm:
Bobby. wrote on Nov 10th, 2024 at 10:30am:
thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 10th, 2024 at 10:15am:
More to the point: due to the enormous increase in the value of global output and trade, after Asia's post WW2  rise beginning with Japan in the 60's.

Of course the amount of money in circulation had to also increase greatly.

Money of course is created out of thin air, you keep making the mistake of seeing money as a scarce commodity.

The real issues in a monetary economy are inflation, cost of living, interest rates, wages and employment, NOT debt (since money is created out of thin air).

It will be fascinating to see what Trump achieves in the US with his MAGA and "America First" policies before the mid-term elections; he is projected to double the US deficit and increase US debt.  Inflation is the unknown under Trump's policies, we will see.



My point is that today -
Gold is worth US$2,741.57 per ounce.

If we went to the Gold standard - Gold would be worth $US 130,000 per ounce overnight -
such is the amount of money printing in the last 40 or more years.

What a windfall for people who have Gold.   Smiley



The United States holds the world's largest stockpile of gold reserves. The country's government has almost as many reserves as the next three largest gold-holding countries combined—Germany, Italy, and France. Russia rounds out the top five. The International Monetary Fund (IMF) is one of the top gold reserve holders with 2,814.10 metric tons (3,102.01 standard tons)—almost as much as Germany



Doesn't matter - it's but a tiny fraction of gold value compared
to the size of the debt -
it's $34 trillion in the USA going up & by $1 trillion every 100 days
and causing massive inflation from all the money printing.
If you had money in the bank in the last 5 years you've lost at least 20% of its value.

Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Bobby.
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 103063
Melbourne
Gender: male
Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)
Reply #1013 - Nov 10th, 2024 at 8:11pm
 
The USA has 8,133 metric tons of gold - the most gold of any country in the world.

https://www.madisontrust.com/information-center/visualizations/which-world-count...

Gold price per kilogram
https://goldprice.org/gold-price-charts/1-day-gold-price-per-kilogram-in-us-doll...

$US 86,313.02


At todays prices of $US 2,741  per ounce - that equals a value of $US702 billion.

That's not even $1 trillion in value yet the US debt is $34 trillion.    Shocked
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
thegreatdivide
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics<br
/>

Posts: 12480
Gender: male
Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)
Reply #1014 - Nov 10th, 2024 at 9:54pm
 
Trump wants 'America First'; I wonder if this picture would move his soul at all.....

Man selling flowers in a smog-ravaged street in Lahore, Pakistan.

https://images.tagesschau.de/image/b2467d69-e442-4a0f-8119-a4272d3d1f7c/AAABkxUr...

.........

And Musk is set to become the world's first $trillionare within the decade, according to Oxfam.

"Lord have mercy upon us"....
Back to top
« Last Edit: Nov 10th, 2024 at 9:59pm by thegreatdivide »  
 
IP Logged
 
thegreatdivide
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics<br
/>

Posts: 12480
Gender: male
Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)
Reply #1015 - Nov 11th, 2024 at 10:57am
 
tallowood wrote on Nov 10th, 2024 at 12:05pm:
The United States holds the world's largest stockpile of gold reserves. The country's government has almost as many reserves as the next three largest gold-holding countries combined—Germany, Italy, and France. Russia rounds out the top five. The International Monetary Fund (IMF) is one of the top gold reserve holders with 2,814.10 metric tons (3,102.01 standard tons)—almost as much as Germany


Yes:

https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/040715/what-countries-have-largest-gold...

.....

Of more interest than the quantities of gold held by various nations, is this detail (in the above link) relating to the abandonment of the gold standard:

France.

With 2,436.97 tons, France has the fourth-largest gold reserves in the world. Former President of France Charles de Gaulle was partially responsible for the collapse of the Bretton Woods system when he called the United States' bluff and began trading dollars in for gold from the Fort Knox reserves.

Then-president Richard Nixon, who knew that the fixed rate of $35 per gold ounce was too low, was eventually forced to take the U.S. off the gold standard, ending the dollar's automatic convertibility into gold.



Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
thegreatdivide
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics<br
/>

Posts: 12480
Gender: male
Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)
Reply #1016 - Nov 11th, 2024 at 11:36am
 
Bobby. wrote on Nov 10th, 2024 at 12:44pm:
tallowood wrote on Nov 10th, 2024 at 12:05pm:
Bobby. wrote on Nov 10th, 2024 at 10:30am:
thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 10th, 2024 at 10:15am:
More to the point: due to the enormous increase in the value of global output and trade, after Asia's post WW2  rise beginning with Japan in the 60's.

Of course the amount of money in circulation had to also increase greatly.

Money of course is created out of thin air, you keep making the mistake of seeing money as a scarce commodity.

The real issues in a monetary economy are inflation, cost of living, interest rates, wages and employment, NOT debt (since money is created out of thin air).

It will be fascinating to see what Trump achieves in the US with his MAGA and "America First" policies before the mid-term elections; he is projected to double the US deficit and increase US debt.  Inflation is the unknown under Trump's policies, we will see.


My point is that today -
Gold is worth US$2,741.57 per ounce.

If we went to the Gold standard - Gold would be worth $US 130,000 per ounce overnight -
such is the amount of money printing in the last 40 or more years.

What a windfall for people who have Gold.   Smiley


The United States holds the world's largest stockpile of gold reserves. The country's government has almost as many reserves as the next three largest gold-holding countries combined—Germany, Italy, and France. Russia rounds out the top five. The International Monetary Fund (IMF) is one of the top gold reserve holders with 2,814.10 metric tons (3,102.01 standard tons)—almost as much as Germany


Doesn't matter - it's but a tiny fraction of gold value compared
to the size of the debt -
it's $34 trillion in the USA going up & by $1 trillion every 100 days


I can see you - like many people - are still stuck in the past, not understanding that money is created out of thin air.

'Finding the Money'  (film)

https://www.google.com/search?q=finding+the+money+full+movie+youtube&sca_esv=2c2...

What doesn't matter (for a currency-issuing government) is deficit and debt; what DOES matter is the nation's productive capacity.   

Quote:
and causing massive inflation from all the money printing.
If you had money in the bank in the last 5 years you've lost at least 20% of its value.


1. We have just exited a post-covid inflationary episode, in which the inflation was caused by government mismagement: the government should not have borrowed money to  pay the essential bills of locked down wotkers, the government should have authorized Treasury to create money out of thin air, thus avoiding a build-up in workers' purchasing power which caused inflation after the pandemic ended, and a massive increase in government debt.

2. 2% inflation is OK if wages grow at a faster rate. And $300k (say) in the bank still earns interest, at least maintaining the purchasing power/value of the money.

3. A better system would be a mandated zero interest-rate, real full-employment scenario, with price controls, and government spending determined by availabilty of resources, not taxing or borrowing from the private sector which always results in government 'austerity'.

And we could sack Bullock who is worse than useless, because she is causing home buyers and unemployed workers endless misery.    




Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Bobby.
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 103063
Melbourne
Gender: male
Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)
Reply #1017 - Nov 12th, 2024 at 5:55am
 
The amount of debt is astonishing.


The USA has 8,133 metric tons of gold - the most gold of any country in the world.

https://www.madisontrust.com/information-center/visualizations/which-world-count...

Gold price per kilogram
https://goldprice.org/gold-price-charts/1-day-gold-price-per-kilogram-in-us-doll...

$US 86,313.02


At todays prices of $US 2,741  per ounce - that equals a value of $US702 billion.

That's not even $1 trillion in value yet the US debt is $34 trillion. 
  Shocked
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
thegreatdivide
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics<br
/>

Posts: 12480
Gender: male
Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)
Reply #1018 - Yesterday at 9:33am
 
Bobby. wrote on Nov 12th, 2024 at 5:55am:
The amount of debt is astonishing.


The USA has 8,133 metric tons of gold - the most gold of any country in the world.

https://www.madisontrust.com/information-center/visualizations/which-world-count...

Gold price per kilogram
https://goldprice.org/gold-price-charts/1-day-gold-price-per-kilogram-in-us-doll...

$US 86,313.02


At todays prices of $US 2,741  per ounce - that equals a value of $US702 billion.

That's not even $1 trillion in value yet the US debt is $34 trillion. 
  Shocked


Bobby - a case study in intellectual blindness.

"The amount of debt is astonishing".

It's actually the amount of money the government hasn't taxed back (to pay the debt), ie  the government's debt is the private sector's savings.

Stop pushing for higher taxes, Trump won't like you.  Sad

[It's a pity Trump wants to raise tariffs, otherwise he would prove government debt doesn't cause inflation, which is actually caused by excess demand  on available resources.  But tarrifs do cause inflation by reducing supply of cheaper goods.]
Back to top
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 10:17am by thegreatdivide »  
 
IP Logged
 
thegreatdivide
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics<br
/>

Posts: 12480
Gender: male
Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)
Reply #1019 - Yesterday at 4:21pm
 
China's latest fiscal stimulus is too small to overcome that nation's  current deflation caused by lack of private sector purchasing power, but Trump will produce  a 'reverse stimulus' on steroids, if he follows Musk's plan outlined during the campaign:

https://www.msn.com/en-au/video/news/elon-musk-says-americans-need-economic-hard...

"we have to reduce spending to live within our means, and, um - (long pause) -  that necessarily involves some temporary hardship, but it will ensure longterm prosperity."

Back to the old fashioned balanced government  budget dogma, after I thought Trump had heard Rush Limbaugh in 2019:

https://reason.com/2019/07/18/rush-limbaugh-abandons-fiscal-conservatism/

(in 2019): rightwing icon and firebrand radio host Rush Limbaugh once cared about reining in the federal deficit and the national debt, but not anymore. On his radio show Wednesday, Limbaugh characterized talk of the country's financial insolvency as unfounded worrying and a dead issue:

Caller: In 2019, there's gonna be a $1 trillion deficit. Trump doesn't really care about that. He's not really a fiscal conservative. We have to acknowledge that Trump has been cruelly used.

Limbaugh: Nobody is a fiscal conservative anymore. All this talk about concern for the deficit and the budget has been bogus for as long as it's been around.


Limbaugh an MMTer?

Anyway, Musk is certainly an old-fashioned 'trickle down' Conservative who thinks slashing taxes and spending will create growth for all.....albeit with "some temporary hardship, but it will ensure longterm prosperity."

That's the neoliberal lie; slashing taxes and spending  since Reagan has fueled inequality in the US, with half the population living paycheck to paycheck in a cost of living crisis. 

Of course Musk forgot to say who would be experiencing the "temporary" pain....it won't be him....

.........

(The Independent)

Donald Trump has nominated billionaire Elon Musk and venture capitalist Vivek Ramaswamy to lead a newly created office designed to fire workers and make drastic cuts to government funding.






 

   
Back to top
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 4:33pm by thegreatdivide »  
 
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1 ... 66 67 68 69 
Send Topic Print