Frank wrote on Feb 25^th, 2023 at 10:04pm:


That's what you said before.

Let's take it more slowly for you....

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Of course symbols are created 'ex nihilo'; eg,  'points' in a game are created out of nothing, and noted on the score board as a player kicks a goal. The goal is real; the 'points' (numbers on a scoreboard) used to keep a tally of the goals are created out of nothing. 

Note; there is an infinite number of these 'points' available for the scoreboard keeper; he can't "run-out" of points during the course of the game.

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Here you are confusing the characteristics of a symbol,  (eg the numbers on a scoreboard) with the way in which the symbols are created, eg in a "random" fashion.

Indeed I can create G clefs (which are symbols) at random, on an empty music manuscript page, not knowing beforehand how many staves I will need for the composition. 

After which real music can be performed following the various music symbols on the manuscript page. 

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Correct, but note the variability of 'value' compared with the fixed nature of the symbol itself.

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Of course there is a relation between a symbol and that which it symbolizes.

Yet spoken language is not symbolic, indeed 1st nations' people didn't employ language symbols at all. (Note: the meaning of the spoken sound is not itself a symbol, it is a convention of a particular language).

And money is always created ex nihilo when commercial  banks write loans for credit-worthy customers; or central banks create reserves for the banking system.

Hint: if a nation's population grows, where does the required increase in money supply come from?

Frank wrote on Feb 26^th, 2023 at 10:45am:


What are the 'symbols' in a non-written language?

Note: while a particular sound is allocated a meaning in oral (non-written) languages, the sound and the meaning are not symbols, they are real phenomena).

Likewise  while a particular unit of money is a symbol, the value of the resource for  which the unit of money (dollar, yen, yuan etc) is a measure, is not a symbol.

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...in written languages, not oral-only ones.  The analogy is trade in a barter system made without recourse to any (symbolic) unit of money at all.  

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Interesting point, but you are lost in the concept of "meaning". Certainly a currency-issuing government can issue its own money (the limit being inflation, NOT government "debt").

In fact it has been shown in anthropological studies that money is an invention of states, to establish and enable  government control of the population.

(Compare Boadicea's Britain with Caesar's Rome, at the time of the invasion; Britain didn't have money, nor indeed a written language). 

So have a shot at answering my question: when the population increases, where does the necessary increase in money supply come from?

thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 26^th, 2023 at 3:19pm:


The sounds of words. Letters or ideograms, hieroglyphs, logograms, Morse codes, etc symbolise sounds, words, syllables etc.

Or signs simbolising phrases, like good job or up yours, pal.

thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 26^th, 2023 at 4:49pm:


....of what?


The sound - letter, picture etc- is the signifier of the signified.

The same way  money is the signifier of a certain value that is signified. That is why you can translate words and exchange money.

Cheeses, pal, you are thicker than I thought.

NYT: "How to print money"

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/02/26/us/printing-money-treasury.html

........

Boring; as prof Dirk Ehnts tweeted; "the more interesting question would be: How to type money into existence 🤔

eg, Lowe should have simply changed the digits in the bank accounts of locked-down workers ONLY, to pay essential bills, during the pandemic lock-downs.

Thus avoiding a purchasing-power increase, in the accounts of people who didn't need it, as happened when he sprayed money around to everyone.

Frank wrote on Feb 28^th, 2023 at 11:36am:


"Value" is the issue you are being misled by; you keep trying to identify money with 'value', and hence conclude money is a commodity with value.

But money is like the goals used to keep score in a game ie, the supply of goals is infinite (can be created ex nihilo), though of course the goals scored by the players are not, they have to be earned by the players.

The currency-issuing government is like the goal keeper and has the capacity to create money (also for itself, as well as the private sector players) as required, so long as the resources (the 'goals', or 'score')  are available for purchase (in the nation's currency of issue).

Now as to 'value': the fact is the value of a nation's fiat-currency (eg a dollar, yen or yuan) is determined by the nation's productive capacity (related to its stock of factories and educated labor etc  - unlike Bitcoin which is merely a ponzi 'currency').

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Re-read what I have explained, above....and then admit your error.


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Wrong: government issues the sign, whose value is determined by the nation's - ie public AND private sector's  - enterprise and productive capacity.

This is one of the major errors of neoclassical orthodoxy, ie denial of the role of the public sector in the issuance of money, and its (ie the public sector's) contribution to the value of that money, measured by the nation's productive capacity and resource output. 

Public education, healthcare, infrastructure,  all contribute to the national wealth. 

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Well....correct, it's the task of government** to limit money supply to the nation's productive capacity (as opposed to a limit by determined by 'debt'). 

** rather than an 'independent" central bank; everyone is seeing the disaster Lowe is causing, especially badly affecting the most vulnerable).     

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Wrong: inflation is the first concern of MMT.

MMT enables the release of the public sector (which oversees the private sector 'players') from the grip of the (naturally) greedy private sector financiers, by recognizing the real constraint for the currency-issuing public sector: resources, not money.

Frank wrote on Feb 28^th, 2023 at 3:17pm:


Correct, so far so good....

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Incorrect (didn't take long....) ; food and infrastructure have intrinsic value; even if all money "disappeared". 

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Not only barter; government decree could also determine "intrinsic" value.

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Note: you are proceeding from your error above: ie  "the "value" would disappear  if the money disappeared".  GIGO,  ignoring the reality of 'intrinsic value.

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Incorrect; govt. creates the sign AND contributes to its value, alongside value creation in private sector markets (the latter not always 'valuable', but sometimes destructive of health and well-being). 

You completely ignored my points on public sector wealth creation in the previous post, as expected from a neoclassical ideologue.