Australian Politics Forum - Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)

MeisterEckhart

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Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)
Reply #765 - Mar 13^th, 2024 at 9:29am

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 13^th, 2024 at 9:13am:

Professor Stephanie Kelton (visiting Australia this week) confirms currency-issuing governments can create money out of thin air to fund government spending, provided the resources sought by the government are available for purchase (by the government), to avoid inflation.

Only totalitarian/authoritarian governments are currency-issuing governments - where independence of their respective central bank is either not granted or not respected.

And they typically do not restrain themselves from printing money out of thin air by the necessary resources being available for purchase (by the government), to avoid inflation.

Look to China, Russia, Zimbabwe and Venezuela as examples.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)
Reply #766 - Mar 13^th, 2024 at 9:32am

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 13^th, 2024 at 9:29am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 13^th, 2024 at 9:13am:

Professor Stephanie Kelton (visiting Australia this week) confirms currency-issuing governments can create money out of thin air to fund government spending, provided the resources sought by the government are available for purchase (by the government), to avoid inflation.

Only totalitarian/authoritarian governments are currency-issuing governments - where independence of their respective central bank is either not granted or not respected.

And they typically do not restrain themselves from printing money out of thin air by the necessary resources being available for purchase (by the government), to avoid inflation.

Look to China, Russia, Zimbabwe and Venezuela as examples.

Er.....China is currently suffering deflation.....do try to keep up.
(google)

"Last year, China's economy suffered its longest deflation streak since the Asian Financial Crisis because domestic demand remained weak even after the country re-opened from Covid and production ramped up."

and:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-03-11/china-s-deflation-reprieve-li...

China’s Deflation Reprieve Likely Temporary Due to Weak Demand
Some economists predict inflation gauge will fall this month 11th March 2024.

.....

All that "money printing" doesn't appear to be working.....

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« Last Edit: Mar 13^th, 2024 at 9:41am by thegreatdivide »

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)
Reply #767 - Mar 13^th, 2024 at 9:35am

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 13^th, 2024 at 9:32am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 13^th, 2024 at 9:29am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 13^th, 2024 at 9:13am:

Professor Stephanie Kelton (visiting Australia this week) confirms currency-issuing governments can create money out of thin air to fund government spending, provided the resources sought by the government are available for purchase (by the government), to avoid inflation.

Only totalitarian/authoritarian governments are currency-issuing governments - where independence of their respective central bank is either not granted or not respected.

And they typically do not restrain themselves from printing money out of thin air by the necessary resources being available for purchase (by the government), to avoid inflation.

Look to China, Russia, Zimbabwe and Venezuela as examples.

Er.....China is currently suffering deflation.....do try to keep up.

China does not have a central bank independent of the CCP and there's no point in the CCP printing more money - their consumer-age demographic is in a state of collapse.

So thar's Russia, Zimbabwe and Venezuela to go... Thow in Argentina as well.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)
Reply #768 - Mar 13^th, 2024 at 9:51am

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 13^th, 2024 at 9:35am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 13^th, 2024 at 9:32am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 13^th, 2024 at 9:29am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 13^th, 2024 at 9:13am:

Professor Stephanie Kelton (visiting Australia this week) confirms currency-issuing governments can create money out of thin air to fund government spending, provided the resources sought by the government are available for purchase (by the government), to avoid inflation.

Only totalitarian/authoritarian governments are currency-issuing governments - where independence of their respective central bank is either not granted or not respected.

And they typically do not restrain themselves from printing money out of thin air by the necessary resources being available for purchase (by the government), to avoid inflation.

Look to China, Russia, Zimbabwe and Venezuela as examples.

Er.....China is currently suffering deflation.....do try to keep up.

China does not have a central bank independent of the CCP and there's no point in the CCP printing more money - their consumer-age demographic is in a state of collapse.

So, with 700 million people in China who are still poor, and with the West accusing China of 'overcapacity' and 'over-production' (eg leading to a claimed dumping of EVs and PVs in Western markets), there's no point in the govt. spending more money?

Quote:

So thar's Russia, Zimbabwe and Venezuela to go... Thow in Argentina as well.

All mismanaged economies, unlike China which has created the world's largest and most complete supply chain.

So you will need to think again about "money printing" in China causing inflation.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-03-11/china-s-deflation-reprieve-li...

"China’s Deflation Reprieve Likely Temporary Due to Weak Demand
Some economists predict inflation gauge will fall this month. 11th March 2024

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)
Reply #769 - Mar 13^th, 2024 at 9:59am

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 13^th, 2024 at 9:51am:

Quote:

China does not have a central bank independent of the CCP and there's no point in the CCP printing more money - their consumer-age demographic is in a state of collapse.

So, with 700 million people in China who are still poor, and with the West accusing China of 'overcapacity' and 'over-production' (eg leading to a claimed dumping of EVs and PVs in Western markets), there's no point in the govt. spending more money?

Quote:

So thar's Russia, Zimbabwe and Venezuela to go... Thow in Argentina as well.

All mismanaged economies, unlike China which has created the wolds mlatgest and most complete supply chain.

So you will need to think again about "money printing" in China causing inflation.

The CCP regularly literally makes up economic figures out of thin air to such an embarrassing degree that even ordinary Chinese can see it's fake when looking at economic data published in previous years.

Venezuela's hilarious answer to hyperinflation is to lob four zeros off their top banknotes. It might fool the people (although I doubt it) but when you check the exchange rate into Australian dollars it's 1 AUD to 2,389,540 VEF.

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Frank

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Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)
Reply #770 - Mar 13^th, 2024 at 10:04am

If you argue with a madman, it is extremely probable that you will get the worst of it; for in many ways his mind moves all the quicker for not being delayed by the things that go with good judgment. He is not hampered by a sense of humour or by charity, or by the dumb certainties of experience. He is the more logical for losing certain sane affections. Indeed, the common phrase for insanity is in this respect a misleading one. The madman is not the man who has lost his reason. The madman is the man who has lost everything except his reason.
...
Take first the more obvious case of materialism (or MMT). As an explanation of the world, materialism (or MMT) has a sort of insane simplicity. It has just the quality of the madman's argument; we have at once the sense of it covering everything and the sense of it leaving everything out.
Chesterton

Chesterton evidently knew the Great Divided parrots of his time, and thus those of all times.

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Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)
Reply #771 - Mar 13^th, 2024 at 10:12am

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 13^th, 2024 at 9:59am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 13^th, 2024 at 9:51am:

Quote:

China does not have a central bank independent of the CCP and there's no point in the CCP printing more money - their consumer-age demographic is in a state of collapse.

So, with 700 million people in China who are still poor, and with the West accusing China of 'overcapacity' and 'over-production' (eg leading to a claimed dumping of EVs and PVs in Western markets), there's no point in the govt. spending more money?

Quote:

So thar's Russia, Zimbabwe and Venezuela to go... Thow in Argentina as well.

All mismanaged economies, unlike China which has created the wolds mlatgest and most complete supply chain.

So you will need to think again about "money printing" in China causing inflation.

The CCP regularly literally makes up economic figures out of thin air to such an embarrassing degree that even ordinary Chinese can see it's fake when looking at economic data published in previous years.

Still, having created the world's most complete supply chain, resulting in China being able to out-compete any nation on PVs and EVs in world markets, the Chinese government has the opportunity to learn from Prof. Kelton:

"

A currency-issuing government can create money out of thin air to fund government spending, provided the resources sought by the government are available for purchase (by the government) to avoid inflation.

"

Quote:

Venezuela's hilarious answer to hyperinflation is to lob four zeros off their top banknotes. It might fool the people (although I doubt it) but when you check the exchange rate into Australian dollars it's 1 AUD to 2,389,540 VEF.

Yep. They haven't learned from Kelton's observations..... the available resources bit, related to the nation's productivity.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)
Reply #772 - Mar 13^th, 2024 at 10:14am

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 13^th, 2024 at 9:51am:

So, with 700 million people in China who are still poor

And here's the CCP claiming poverty has been eliminated!

Anyway, the 'good' news is that the CCP now admits that they overestimated the Chinese population by 100 million and possibly by up to 250 million.

So the CCP is eliminating poverty by admitting there aren't as many Chinese people in the first place so, y'know, the number of poor Chinese has 'miraculously' dropped by maybe up to 120 million!

It's a miracle!!

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)
Reply #773 - Mar 13^th, 2024 at 10:18am

Frank wrote on Mar 13^th, 2024 at 10:04am:

If you argue with a madman, it is extremely probable that you will get the worst of it; for in many ways his mind moves all the quicker for not being delayed by the things that go with good judgment. He is not hampered by a sense of humour or by charity, or by the dumb certainties of experience. He is the more logical for losing certain sane affections. Indeed, the common phrase for insanity is in this respect a misleading one. The madman is not the man who has lost his reason. The madman is the man who has lost everything except his reason.
...
Take first the more obvious case of materialism (or MMT). As an explanation of the world, materialism (or MMT) has a sort of insane simplicity. It has just the quality of the madman's argument; we have at once the sense of it covering everything and the sense of it leaving everything out.
Chesterton

Chesterton evidently knew the Great Divided parrots of his time, and thus those of all times.

Ah...Chesterton! ...I love the 'Father Brown' series.

But like you, he wasn't an economist; you will need more ammo than that, to dismisss Prof. Kelton.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)
Reply #774 - Mar 13^th, 2024 at 10:20am

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 13^th, 2024 at 10:12am:

Quote:

Venezuela's hilarious answer to hyperinflation is to lob four zeros off their top banknotes. It might fool the people (although I doubt it) but when you check the exchange rate into Australian dollars it's 1 AUD to 2,389,540 VEF.

Yep. They haven't learned from Kelton's observations..... the available resources bit, related to the nation's productivity.

Totalitarian/authoritarian governments don't give a sh!t about only printing money relative to the nation's productivity - they'll print money when it suits them and without question or interference from their respective central bank or leading economists.

Like they say in these governments - there are 2 kinds of leading economists: those who tow the party line and dead ones.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)
Reply #775 - Mar 13^th, 2024 at 10:27am

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 13^th, 2024 at 10:14am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 13^th, 2024 at 9:51am:

So, with 700 million people in China who are still poor

And here's the CCP claiming poverty has been eliminated!

Wrong: in 2021, the CCP announced China hd eradicated absolute poverty ( ie, of the type of poverty that still afflicts 700 million Indians today).

Quote:

Anyway, the 'good' news is that the CCP now admits that they overestimated the Chinese population by 100 million and possibly by up to 250 million.

Hooookay......

Quote:

So the CCP is eliminating poverty by admitting there aren't as many Chinese people in the first place so, y'know, the number of poor Chinese has 'miraculously' dropped by maybe up to 120 million!

It's a miracle!!

Less poor people, but the same number of middle-class people? What's not to like?

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)
Reply #776 - Mar 13^th, 2024 at 10:33am

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 13^th, 2024 at 10:12am:

A currency-issuing government can create money out of thin air to fund government spending, provided the resources sought by the government are available for purchase (by the government) to avoid inflation.

See, this is what you're not getting... Governmental systems that cede authority to print money to central banks, and also respect their independence, allow economic reality to guide the central banks over political expediency.

Totalitarian/authoritarian governments have no interest in or respect for economic reality when it threatens their grip on power.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)
Reply #777 - Mar 13^th, 2024 at 10:36am

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 13^th, 2024 at 10:27am:

Quote:

So the CCP is eliminating poverty by admitting there aren't as many Chinese people in the first place so, y'know, the number of poor Chinese has 'miraculously' dropped by maybe up to 120 million!

It's a miracle!!

Less poor people, but the same number of middle-class people? What's not to like?

Does basic maths elude you?

The CCP didn't overestimate only the number of poor people...

And you call yourself an economist??!!

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MeisterEckhart Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 12498 Gender:	Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT) Reply #778 - Mar 13^th, 2024 at 10:41am thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 13^th, 2024 at 10:27am: Wrong: in 2021, the CCP announced China hd eradicated absolute poverty ( ie, of the type of poverty that still afflicts 700 million Indians today). And what's absolute poverty to the CCP? When you have to kill and eat your neighbour's children to survive?
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thegreatdivide

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Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)
Reply #779 - Mar 13^th, 2024 at 10:43am

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 13^th, 2024 at 10:20am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 13^th, 2024 at 10:12am:

Quote:

Venezuela's hilarious answer to hyperinflation is to lob four zeros off their top banknotes. It might fool the people (although I doubt it) but when you check the exchange rate into Australian dollars it's 1 AUD to 2,389,540 VEF.

Yep. They haven't learned from Kelton's observations..... the available resources bit, related to the nation's productivity.

Totalitarian/authoritarian governments don't give a sh!t about only printing money relative to the nation's productivity -

I already proved you wrong; China is suffering DEFLATION which warrants more government spending, given the vast productive capacity of China's economy.

So the rest of your post is just based on your ideological "freedom" BS, on which I commented in the 'foundations' thread; eg the "freedom" of the homeless people sleeping in the streets of Oz's big cities, the result of your dysfunctional neoliberal economic orthodoxy.

Quote:

they'll print money when it suits them and without question or interference from their respective central bank or leading economists.

The 'two sessions' conference in Beijing has just concluded, examining how the nation can continue to achieve modernization and transformation to a high quality economy.

Quote:

Like they say in these governments - there are 2 kinds of leading economists: those who tow the party line and dead ones.

And unfortunately, the leading economists are still towing the dysfunctional, mainstream Western economists' line....

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