Australian Politics Forum - Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)

thegreatdivide

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Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)
Reply #780 - Mar 13^th, 2024 at 10:49am

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 13^th, 2024 at 10:41am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 13^th, 2024 at 10:27am:

Wrong: in 2021, the CCP announced China hd eradicated absolute poverty ( ie, of the type of poverty that still afflicts 700 million Indians today).

And what's absolute poverty to the CCP?

When you have to kill and eat your neighbour's children to survive?

No ...see India today, for absolute poverty in Chinese/India ppp (purchasing power parity) terms.

And also see people sleeping in the streets in Oz's big cities, for absolute poverty in Oz ppp terms.

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« Last Edit: Mar 13^th, 2024 at 12:59pm by thegreatdivide »

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)
Reply #781 - Mar 13^th, 2024 at 10:54am

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 13^th, 2024 at 10:43am:

Quote:

Like they say in these governments - there are 2 kinds of leading economists: those who tow the party line and dead ones.

And unfortunately, the leading economists are still towing the dysfunctional, mainstream Western economists' line....

The leading economists in China are following the CCP line... if not, they'd be as dead as Li Kechiang.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)
Reply #782 - Mar 13^th, 2024 at 10:58am

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 13^th, 2024 at 10:49am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 13^th, 2024 at 10:41am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 13^th, 2024 at 10:27am:

Wrong: in 2021, the CCP announced China hd eradicated absolute poverty ( ie, of the type of poverty that still afflicts 700 million Indians today).

And what's absolute poverty to the CCP?

When you have to kill and eat your neighbour's children to survive?

No ...see India today, for absolute poverty in Chinese/India ppp (purchaing power parity) terms.

And also see people sleeping in the streets in Oz's big cities, for absolute poverty in Oz ppp terms.

India allows media access to almost the whole country. The CCP does not.

Those who travel in China to these areas to document poverty risk long prison sentences or death.

For all the world knows there could still be Chinese people eating each other's babies to survive.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)
Reply #783 - Mar 13^th, 2024 at 11:00am

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 13^th, 2024 at 10:43am:

Quote:

they'll print money when it suits them and without question or interference from their respective central bank or leading economists.

The 'two sessions' conference in Beijing has just concluded, examining how the nation can continue to achieve modernization and transformation to a high quality economy.

What did they discuss? How much wood could woodchuck chuck if woodchuck could chuck wood?

What did they decide?

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)
Reply #784 - Mar 13^th, 2024 at 11:05am

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 13^th, 2024 at 10:33am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 13^th, 2024 at 10:12am:

A currency-issuing government can create money out of thin air to fund government spending, provided the resources sought by the government are available for purchase (by the government) to avoid inflation.

See, this is what you're not getting...

At last ......actually addressing the issue: let's read on (with bated breathe....)

Quote:

Governmental systems that cede authority to print money to central banks, and also respect their independence, allow economic reality to guide the central banks over political expediency.

So-called "central bank independence" is in fact the ultimate undemocratric device to annul the electorate's ability to choose between different policies offered by political parties.

"Economic reality" is not fixed by immutable laws like the law of gravity, economics is more to do with moral choices. Acceptance of systeminc poverty is a choice, not an economic necessity.

Quote:

Totalitarian/authoritarian governments have no interest in or respect for economic reality when it threatens their grip on power.

I already commented on your ideology-based confusion re 'economic reality'; acceptance of poverty is the society's choice, not 'economic reality'.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)
Reply #785 - Mar 13^th, 2024 at 11:22am

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 13^th, 2024 at 11:05am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 13^th, 2024 at 10:33am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 13^th, 2024 at 10:12am:

A currency-issuing government can create money out of thin air to fund government spending, provided the resources sought by the government are available for purchase (by the government) to avoid inflation.

See, this is what you're not getting...

At last ......actually addressing the issue: let's read on (with bated breathe....)

Quote:

Governmental systems that cede authority to print money to central banks, and also respect their independence, allow economic reality to guide the central banks over political expediency.

So-called "central bank independence" is in fact the ultimate undemocratric device to annul the electorate's ability to choose between different policies offered by political parties.

"Economic reality" is not fixed by immutable laws like the law of gravity, economics is more to do with moral choices. Acceptance of systeminc poverty is a choice, not an economic necessity.

Quote:

Totalitarian/authoritarian governments have no interest in or respect for economic reality when it threatens their grip on power.

I already commented on your ideology-based confusion re 'economic reality'; acceptance of poverty is the society's choice, not 'economic reality'.

Yes, economic reality is not fixed, hence the need for central banks to meet regularly to determine that reality and implement changes as required.

What is fixed is totalitarian/authoritarian governments' leaders' determination to hold onto power to the death - the deaths of economists, rival politicians and journalists, that is.

On a lighter note, if that merely means printing more money, then... start up the printers.

Xi has just about killed all his political rivals and dissenting economists. After he's done with them all, it'll be just a matter of him jumping off a bridge...

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)
Reply #786 - Mar 13^th, 2024 at 12:58pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 13^th, 2024 at 11:22am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 13^th, 2024 at 11:05am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 13^th, 2024 at 10:33am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 13^th, 2024 at 10:12am:

A currency-issuing government can create money out of thin air to fund government spending, provided the resources sought by the government are available for purchase (by the government) to avoid inflation.

See, this is what you're not getting...

At last ......actually addressing the issue: let's read on (with bated breathe....)

Quote:

Governmental systems that cede authority to print money to central banks, and also respect their independence, allow economic reality to guide the central banks over political expediency.

So-called "central bank independence" is in fact the ultimate undemocratric device to annul the electorate's ability to choose between different policies offered by political parties.

"Economic reality" is not fixed by immutable laws like the law of gravity, economics is more to do with moral choices. Acceptance of systeminc poverty is a choice, not an economic necessity.

Quote:

Totalitarian/authoritarian governments have no interest in or respect for economic reality when it threatens their grip on power.

I already commented on your ideology-based confusion re 'economic reality'; acceptance of poverty is the society's choice, not 'economic reality'.

Yes, economic reality is not fixed, hence the need for central banks to meet regularly to determine that reality and implement changes as required.

...according to central bankers views of "economic reality"...the problem is central banks are directed by the (currently dominant) neoliberal orthodoxy.

Central bank independence is demanded by economic autocrats like yourself, to avoid enabling shared prosperity which will reduce the power of the elites.

Quote:

What is fixed is totalitarian/authoritarian...

Indeed, you are a good example, as noted above.

Quote:

On a lighter note, if that merely means printing more money, then... start up the printers.

Has your IQ suffered catastrophic collapse?

Nowhere does Kelton's statement (the subject of this debate) say "merely print more money"...

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)
Reply #787 - Mar 13^th, 2024 at 1:18pm

https://www.crikey.com.au/2024/03/12/nobel-laureate-economist-angus-deaton-capit...

Nobel laureate economist savages his own profession as clueless and unethical

Nobel Laureate economist Angus Deaton has delivered a ferocious rebuke to his own profession, saying economists have failed to understand that capitalism is about power.

"Without an analysis of power, it is hard to understand inequality or much else in modern capitalism.”

Angus Deaton is the economic doyen from central casting. The bow-tie-wearing econometrician was born in Scotland, did a PhD at Cambridge and has been at Princeton for the last 40 years. He’s currently the Eisenhower Professor of Economics and International Affairs Emeritus. He won the Nobel Prize for Economics in 2015. And he’s just dropped an almighty bucket of poo on his entire profession.

Where Deaton published it is almost as interesting as the contents: at the International Monetary Fund, that institution once seen as the standard-bearer of neoliberal orthodoxy, but which has in recent years developed a curiosity about the real-world impacts of the hardline policies it once imposed upon or prescribed to countries.

This is the mob who Meister thinks should be in charge of the Reserve Bank....

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)
Reply #788 - Mar 13^th, 2024 at 1:31pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 13^th, 2024 at 12:58pm:

Quote:

On a lighter note, if that merely means printing more money, then... start up the printers.

Has your IQ suffered catastrophic collapse?

Nowhere does Kelton's statement (the subject of this debate) say "merely print more money"...

That was a reference to your statement that you flaunted around this site on a few threads like a gay pride flag.

And, back in context, it is a reference to totalitarian/authoritarian governments printing money when it suits them without regard for the resources being available for purchase (by the government) to avoid inflation.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)
Reply #789 - Mar 13^th, 2024 at 1:52pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 13^th, 2024 at 1:31pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 13^th, 2024 at 12:58pm:

Quote:

On a lighter note, if that merely means printing more money, then... start up the printers.

Has your IQ suffered catastrophic collapse?

Nowhere does Kelton's statement (the subject of this debate) say "merely print more money"...

That was a reference to your statement that you flaunted around this site on a few threads like a gay pride flag.

Can you cite the statement "flaunted by me"?

You mean the one by Prof. Kelton which I posted in this thread.

Don't shoot the messenger...

Quote:

And, back in context, it is a reference to totalitarian/authoritarian governments printing money....

Again, nothing to do with Kelton's statement to which you imagine you are replying.

Quote:

...without regard for the resources being available for purchase (by the government) to avoid inflation.

Ah...back on topic, good - yes, resources are the real constraint for a currency-issuer, not money.

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« Last Edit: Mar 13^th, 2024 at 2:02pm by thegreatdivide »

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)
Reply #790 - Mar 13^th, 2024 at 2:03pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 13^th, 2024 at 1:52pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 13^th, 2024 at 1:31pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 13^th, 2024 at 12:58pm:

Quote:

On a lighter note, if that merely means printing more money, then... start up the printers.

Has your IQ suffered catastrophic collapse?

Nowhere does Kelton's statement (the subject of this debate) say "merely print more money"...

That was a reference to your statement that you flaunted around this site on a few threads like a gay pride flag.

Can you cite the statement "flaunted by me"?

You've left it on at least 3 threads here

"the currency-issuing government can create money out of thin air to fund government services, provided the necessary resources are available for purchase (by the government), to avoid inflation".

While we're here, can you explain what 'out of thin air' refers to?

If it's backed by the necessary resources being available for purchase (by the government), to avoid inflation, then how does that not contradict 'out of thin air'?

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)
Reply #791 - Mar 13^th, 2024 at 2:19pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 13^th, 2024 at 2:03pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 13^th, 2024 at 1:52pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 13^th, 2024 at 1:31pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 13^th, 2024 at 12:58pm:

Quote:

On a lighter note, if that merely means printing more money, then... start up the printers.

Has your IQ suffered catastrophic collapse?

Nowhere does Kelton's statement (the subject of this debate) say "merely print more money"...

That was a reference to your statement that you flaunted around this site on a few threads like a gay pride flag.

Can you cite the statement "flaunted by me"?

You've left it on at least 3 threads here

See the edit in the previous post; and your low IQ comprehension re "merely printing more money" is ...low IQ stuff.

Quote:

"the currency-issuing government can create money out of thin air to fund government services, provided the necessary resources are available for purchase (by the government), to avoid inflation".

While we're here, can you explain what 'out of thin air' refers to?

At last - back on track: money is created with key-stokes on computer keyboards, in the central bank and treasury....hence "created out of thin air".

And for a tiny minority of money, created by writing numbers on bits of paper - highly secure bits of paper which are difficult to counterfeit...

Quote:

If it's backed by the necessary resources being available for purchase (by the government), to avoid inflation, then how does that not contradict 'out of thin air'?

I already noted that if treasury has done a stock-take of the nation's resources which are available for purchase, then treasury (the issuer of the nation's currency) can buy those resources by crediting the bank accounts of the sellers (including labour) ....with money created out of thin air as described above.

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« Last Edit: Mar 13^th, 2024 at 2:26pm by thegreatdivide »

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)
Reply #792 - Mar 13^th, 2024 at 2:28pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 13^th, 2024 at 2:19pm:

I already noted that if treasury has done a stock-take of the nation's resources which are available for purchase, then treasury (the issuer of the nation's currency) can buy those resources by crediting the bank accounts of the sellers (including labour) ....with money created out of thin air as described above.

That does not explain 'out of thin air', you've just moved it.

'Out of thin air' is a metaphor that characterises the creation or appearance of something that is not based in reality, or a supernatural event.

What does 'out of thin air' mean in the context you're using it?

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)
Reply #793 - Mar 13^th, 2024 at 2:39pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 13^th, 2024 at 2:28pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 13^th, 2024 at 2:19pm:

I already noted that if treasury has done a stock-take of the nation's resources which are available for purchase, then treasury (the issuer of the nation's currency) can buy those resources by crediting the bank accounts of the sellers (including labour) ....with money created out of thin air as described above.

That does not explain 'out of thin air', you've just moved it.

'Out of thin air' is a metaphor that characterises the creation or appearance of something that is not based in reality, or a supernatural event.

What does 'out of thin air' mean in the context you're using it?

It means a bank manager doesn't have to duck around to the bank's vault to see if the bank has enough money, when a creditworthy customer walks in seeking a loan.

The customer can receive the money on the spot - money created out of thin air - if he was able to convince the manager he is credit-worthy, regardless of the quantity of the bank's customers' deposits.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)
Reply #794 - Mar 13^th, 2024 at 2:46pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 13^th, 2024 at 2:39pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 13^th, 2024 at 2:28pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 13^th, 2024 at 2:19pm:

I already noted that if treasury has done a stock-take of the nation's resources which are available for purchase, then treasury (the issuer of the nation's currency) can buy those resources by crediting the bank accounts of the sellers (including labour) ....with money created out of thin air as described above.

That does not explain 'out of thin air', you've just moved it.

'Out of thin air' is a metaphor that characterises the creation or appearance of something that is not based in reality, or a supernatural event.

What does 'out of thin air' mean in the context you're using it?

It means a bank manager doesn't have to duck around to the bank's vault to see if the bank has enough money, when a creditworthy customer walks in seeking a loan.

The customer can receive the money on the spot - money created out of thin air - if he was able to convince the manager he is credit-worthy, regardless of the quantity of the bank's customers' deposits.

That is not the context in which you are using it.

You are referring to currency-issuing governments that can create money out of thin air.

How is it out of thin air if, in your statement, it is backed by the necessary resources being available for purchase (by the government), to avoid inflation?

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