Australian Politics Forum - Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)

thegreatdivide

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Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)
Reply #810 - Mar 14^th, 2024 at 9:43am

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 14^th, 2024 at 9:35am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 14^th, 2024 at 9:29am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 14^th, 2024 at 9:23am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 14^th, 2024 at 9:13am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 14^th, 2024 at 7:55am:

Frank wrote on Mar 14^th, 2024 at 7:46am:

Quote:

3. Re "'too much' or 'not enough' is largely indefinable":

What is definable is a continuous full-employment econonmy which maximises the nation's productivity, in the absence of inflation.

The Soviet Union had full employment and work wasn't just a righ but a duty.
North korea still has total employment.

And while the Soviet Union projected the image of full employment, the reality was that it didn't matter if that employment was not necessarily productive.

Just shows how successful their 100% command economy was;

Well, it did collapse as an unintended consequence of glasnost and perestroika, so...

As a result of losing an arms race with an economy twice it's size,

As we learn in the school playground: Rule number 1 - don't take on the big guys.

Ah...back to 'might is right'.

Kelton is teaching us how we can reclaim power and prosperity from the big 7 wall street giant money-hooverers who are churning out billionaires while governments are "broke".

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MeisterEckhart Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 12489 Gender:	Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT) Reply #811 - Mar 14^th, 2024 at 9:58am thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 14^th, 2024 at 9:43am: Quote: As we learn in the school playground: Rule number 1 - don't take on the big guys. Ah...back to 'might is right'. Might is a so-called brute fact. Whether or not it's right is a matter for 'ought' not 'is',
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thegreatdivide

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Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)
Reply #812 - Mar 14^th, 2024 at 10:25am

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 14^th, 2024 at 9:58am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 14^th, 2024 at 9:43am:

Quote:

As we learn in the school playground: Rule number 1 - don't take on the big guys.

Ah...back to 'might is right'.

Might is a so-called brute fact.

Whether or not it's right is a matter for 'ought' not 'is',

Be happy, lift your spirits: Kelton is teaching us how we can reclaim power and prosperity from the big 7 wall street giant money-hooverers who are churning out billionaires, while governments are "broke" and people are living in tents in city streets.

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Frank

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Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)
Reply #813 - Mar 14^th, 2024 at 11:03am

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 14^th, 2024 at 9:37am:

Frank wrote on Mar 14^th, 2024 at 9:27am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 14^th, 2024 at 8:59am:

Frank wrote on Mar 14^th, 2024 at 7:46am:

TGD: What is definable is a continuous full-employment econonmy which maximises the nation's productivity, in the absence of inflation.

Frank: "The Soviet Union had full employment and work wasn't just a righ but a duty.
North korea still has total employment".

They were/are entirely command economies.

MMT relates to government spending in mixed economies, via intelligent planning alongside blind (self-interest-driven) 'invisible hand' markets.

Ah.

So what IS the value of the 'invisible hand' markets that makes them worth keeping?

There's no power like self-interest.....

Quote:

Why are they better than government-planned economies?

Better than command economies? Because the latter fail to harness the power of self-interest.

BUT:

"free markets are good servants, but bad masters".

eg does the community need another hospital, or another casino?.....

You are just talking about the self-interest of the community.

Which is served by the collective invisible hand of individual interests.

Like all zealots and converts, you are a stickler of surface slogans but miss all substance and meaning.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)
Reply #814 - Mar 14^th, 2024 at 1:23pm

Frank wrote on Mar 14^th, 2024 at 11:03am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 14^th, 2024 at 9:37am:

Frank wrote on Mar 14^th, 2024 at 9:27am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 14^th, 2024 at 8:59am:

Frank wrote on Mar 14^th, 2024 at 7:46am:

TGD: What is definable is a continuous full-employment econonmy which maximises the nation's productivity, in the absence of inflation.

Frank: "The Soviet Union had full employment and work wasn't just a righ but a duty.
North korea still has total employment".

They were/are entirely command economies.

MMT relates to government spending in mixed economies, via intelligent planning alongside blind (self-interest-driven) 'invisible hand' markets.

Ah.

So what IS the value of the 'invisible hand' markets that makes them worth keeping?

There's no power like self-interest.....

Quote:

Why are they better than government-planned economies?

Better than command economies? Because the latter fail to harness the power of self-interest.

BUT:

"free markets are good servants, but bad masters".

eg does the community need another hospital, or another casino?.....

You are just talking about the self-interest of the community.
Which is served by the collective invisible hand of individual interests.

The "self-interest" of the community is in the eye of the (individual) beholder: eg, is it in the "self-interest" of the community to transition to a green economy, or not....; what "the community" wants and what it needs might be two different things (just as what you want and what you need are not necessarily identical, depending on your level of self-awareness, and knowledge of and desire for healthy living).

Whereas the "self-interest" of the individual is manifest in many ways and may result in competition and disputes with other individuals, separate from community needs (eg housing for all).

Here is a definition of the 'invisible hand':

google:

The invisible hand is a metaphor for how, in a free market economy, self-interested individuals operate through a system of mutual interdependence. This interdependence incentivizes producers to make what is socially necessary, even though they may care only about their own well-being.

Note the highlighted; did Sydney need Packer's massive resource-consuming Bangaroo development, or more public housing?

Quote:

Like all zealots and converts, you are a stickler of surface slogans but miss all substance and meaning.

Er.....the "substance and meaning" - in the definition of the 'invisisble hand', above?

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« Last Edit: Mar 14^th, 2024 at 1:35pm by thegreatdivide »

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wombatwoody Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 3206 Wombat NSW	Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT) Reply #815 - Mar 15^th, 2024 at 2:10am All Wars Are Bankers' Wars
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Frank

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Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)
Reply #816 - Mar 15^th, 2024 at 7:00am

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 14^th, 2024 at 1:23pm:

Frank wrote on Mar 14^th, 2024 at 11:03am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 14^th, 2024 at 9:37am:

Frank wrote on Mar 14^th, 2024 at 9:27am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 14^th, 2024 at 8:59am:

Frank wrote on Mar 14^th, 2024 at 7:46am:

TGD: What is definable is a continuous full-employment econonmy which maximises the nation's productivity, in the absence of inflation.

Frank: "The Soviet Union had full employment and work wasn't just a righ but a duty.
North korea still has total employment".

They were/are entirely command economies.

MMT relates to government spending in mixed economies, via intelligent planning alongside blind (self-interest-driven) 'invisible hand' markets.

Ah.

So what IS the value of the 'invisible hand' markets that makes them worth keeping?

There's no power like self-interest.....

Quote:

Why are they better than government-planned economies?

Better than command economies? Because the latter fail to harness the power of self-interest.

BUT:

"free markets are good servants, but bad masters".

eg does the community need another hospital, or another casino?.....

You are just talking about the self-interest of the community.
Which is served by the collective invisible hand of individual interests.

The "self-interest" of the community is in the eye of the (individual) beholder: eg, is it in the "self-interest" of the community to transition to a green economy, or not....; what "the community" wants and what it needs might be two different things (just as what you want and what you need are not necessarily identical, depending on your level of self-awareness, and knowledge of and desire for healthy living).

Whereas the "self-interest" of the individual is manifest in many ways and may result in competition and disputes with other individuals, separate from community needs (eg housing for all).

Here is a definition of the 'invisible hand':

google:

The invisible hand is a metaphor for how, in a free market economy, self-interested individuals operate through a system of mutual interdependence. This interdependence incentivizes producers to make what is socially necessary, even though they may care only about their own well-being.

Note the highlighted; did Sydney need Packer's massive resource-consuming Bangaroo development, or more public housing?

Quote:

Like all zealots and converts, you are a stickler of surface slogans but miss all substance and meaning.

Er.....the "substance and meaning" - in the definition of the 'invisisble hand', above?

Waffle.

You introduced the idea of 'what the community needs' - as a synonym for the invisible hand.

So who decides what the community needs, if not the invisible hand?

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)
Reply #817 - Mar 15^th, 2024 at 9:33am

Frank wrote on Mar 15^th, 2024 at 7:00am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 14^th, 2024 at 1:23pm:

Frank wrote on Mar 14^th, 2024 at 11:03am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 14^th, 2024 at 9:37am:

Frank wrote on Mar 14^th, 2024 at 9:27am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 14^th, 2024 at 8:59am:

Frank wrote on Mar 14^th, 2024 at 7:46am:

TGD: What is definable is a continuous full-employment econonmy which maximises the nation's productivity, in the absence of inflation.

Frank: "The Soviet Union had full employment and work wasn't just a righ but a duty.
North korea still has total employment".

They were/are entirely command economies.

MMT relates to government spending in mixed economies, via intelligent planning alongside blind (self-interest-driven) 'invisible hand' markets.

Ah.

So what IS the value of the 'invisible hand' markets that makes them worth keeping?

There's no power like self-interest.....

Quote:

Why are they better than government-planned economies?

Better than command economies? Because the latter fail to harness the power of self-interest.

BUT:

"free markets are good servants, but bad masters".

eg does the community need another hospital, or another casino?.....

You are just talking about the self-interest of the community.
Which is served by the collective invisible hand of individual interests.

The "self-interest" of the community is in the eye of the (individual) beholder: eg, is it in the "self-interest" of the community to transition to a green economy, or not....; what "the community" wants and what it needs might be two different things (just as what you want and what you need are not necessarily identical, depending on your level of self-awareness, and knowledge of and desire for healthy living).

Whereas the "self-interest" of the individual is manifest in many ways and may result in competition and disputes with other individuals, separate from community needs (eg housing for all).

Here is a definition of the 'invisible hand':

google:

The invisible hand is a metaphor for how, in a free market economy, self-interested individuals operate through a system of mutual interdependence. This interdependence incentivizes producers to make what is socially necessary, even though they may care only about their own well-being.

Note the highlighted; did Sydney need Packer's massive resource-consuming Bangaroo development, or more public housing?

Quote:

Like all zealots and converts, you are a stickler of surface slogans but miss all substance and meaning.

Er.....the "substance and meaning" - in the definition of the 'invisisble hand', above?

Waffle.

You introduced the idea of 'what the community needs' - as a synonym for the invisible hand.

No, I showed your concept of "the self-interest of the community" is flawed.

Quote:

So who decides what the community needs, if not the invisible hand?

Er...politicians (whether elected, or in a consensus meritocracy).

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« Last Edit: Mar 15^th, 2024 at 10:06am by thegreatdivide »

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Frank

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Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)
Reply #818 - Mar 15^th, 2024 at 3:12pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 13^th, 2024 at 10:18am:

Frank wrote on Mar 13^th, 2024 at 10:04am:

If you argue with a madman, it is extremely probable that you will get the worst of it; for in many ways his mind moves all the quicker for not being delayed by the things that go with good judgment. He is not hampered by a sense of humour or by charity, or by the dumb certainties of experience. He is the more logical for losing certain sane affections. Indeed, the common phrase for insanity is in this respect a misleading one. The madman is not the man who has lost his reason. The madman is the man who has lost everything except his reason.
...
Take first the more obvious case of materialism (or MMT). As an explanation of the world, materialism (or MMT) has a sort of insane simplicity. It has just the quality of the madman's argument; we have at once the sense of it covering everything and the sense of it leaving everything out.
Chesterton

Chesterton evidently knew the Great Divided parrots of his time, and thus those of all times.

But like you, he wasn't an economist;

Nor you.
So??

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Frank

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Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)
Reply #819 - Mar 15^th, 2024 at 3:13pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 15^th, 2024 at 9:33am: