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thegreatdivide

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Re: privatisation
Reply #240 - Jun 5^th, 2022 at 1:10pm

freediver wrote on Jun 5^th, 2022 at 10:29am:

Everything that the government privatised previously had the price set by the government.

https://theconversation.com/australias-credit-rating-is-irrelevant-ignore-it-151...

"In order to fund the extra debt payments, those (Australian) states will be under pressure to outsource and privatise things that aren’t yet privatised, even though on one estimate none of Australia’s privatisations over the past 30 years has ended up benefiting the public.

Read the full article in the MMT thread, entitled:

Australia’s credit rating is irrelevant. Ignore it

(link)

https://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1645944963/165#179

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thegreatdivide Gold Member Offline Australian Politics<br /> Posts: 12283 Gender:	Re: privatisation Reply #241 - Jun 5^th, 2022 at 1:10pm .
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48816 At my desk.	Re: privatisation Reply #242 - Jun 5^th, 2022 at 1:14pm Quote: even though on one estimate none of Australia’s privatisations over the past 30 years has ended up benefiting the public So one moron took a wild guess. Why should we care?
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thegreatdivide

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Re: privatisation
Reply #243 - Jun 5^th, 2022 at 2:05pm

freediver wrote on Jun 5^th, 2022 at 1:14pm:

Quote:

even though on one estimate none of Australia’s privatisations over the past 30 years has ended up benefiting the public

So one moron took a wild guess. Why should we care?

No wild guess, and unlike you, some are aware of the whole privatization scam.

("Yes the sale price (of the government monopoly) was so wrong (deficient)*** that one has to suspect outright criminality or criminal incompetence. Either way, it was morally criminal and would have been legally criminal if we had had decent laws in place. It’s one of the many reasons why I have long detested the class traitor Keating who was Australia’s Thatcher and Blair, with all the worst qualities of both rolled into one person.

*** like the transfer of the Russian state's wealth to private oligarchs when the USSR collapsed.

In Keating's case, it was sheer incompetence/ignorance, like Obama in the GFC, who failed to imprison even ONE of the private sector financial-industry crooks who caused it.

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freediver

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Re: privatisation
Reply #244 - Jun 5^th, 2022 at 3:38pm

Selling something for the wrong price is not an argument that it should not have been sold. It is an argument that the sale price should have been different. Governments do things incorrectly all the time, just like private companies. This alone tells you nothing about whether they should be doing them in the first place.

On what basis do you think we should be deciding whether an industry should be run by the government or privately? Is it merely an accident of history?

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thegreatdivide

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Re: privatisation
Reply #245 - Jun 5^th, 2022 at 4:52pm

freediver wrote on Jun 5^th, 2022 at 3:38pm:

Selling something for the wrong price is not an argument that it should not have been sold. It is an argument that the sale price should have been different. Governments do things incorrectly all the time, just like private companies. This alone tells you nothing about whether they should be doing them in the first place.

On what basis do you think we should be deciding whether an industry should be run by the government or privately? Is it merely an accident of history?

On the basis of "essential social/public service".

Market failure is egregious and sometimes catastrophic especially for those least able to bear the market failure.

Meanwhile Oz is flogging its vast gas reserves overseas (via contract) , and now the government has to work out how to deal with "market" prices which are damaging our own economy and people.... aka 'market failure'.

The solutions which Labor adopts will be interesting to see, asthe Coalition will be screaming "bad management"... in a hideous continuation of the BS adversarial 2 party political game.

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Jasin Gold Member Offline Posts: 47293 Gender:	Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT) Reply #246 - Jun 5^th, 2022 at 4:57pm freediver wrote on Apr 10^th, 2022 at 7:53pm: For far more fundamental reasons - the government should not be running these businesses in the first place. True. The Medical Industry should be running their own show. Not the Government. Politicians should be just running Politics.
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thegreatdivide

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Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)
Reply #247 - Jun 5^th, 2022 at 5:10pm

Jasin wrote on Jun 5^th, 2022 at 4:57pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 10^th, 2022 at 7:53pm:

For far more fundamental reasons - the government should not be running these businesses in the first place.

True.

The Medical Industry should be running their own show.
Not the Government. Politicians should be just running Politics.

You mean Medicare should be abolished?

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48816 At my desk.	Re: privatisation Reply #248 - Jun 5^th, 2022 at 5:36pm Quote: On the basis of "essential social/public service". Market failure is egregious and sometimes catastrophic especially for those least able to bear the market failure. Are you suggesting the two are the same? Do you think food production should be derivatised because it is essential?
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thegreatdivide

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Re: privatisation
Reply #249 - Jun 5^th, 2022 at 6:12pm

freediver wrote on Jun 5^th, 2022 at 5:36pm:

Are you suggesting the two are the same?

Essential services and essential goods? Yes, but treated differently.

I'm suggesting essential services like education, health care, energy and public infrastructure should always remain in public hands (eg, no toll roads) , to avoid market failure in the delivery of these essential services (which we are currently witnessing in the latest Oz market gas-price debacle).

Whereas essential "goods" like housing and food which are best provisioned by the private sector in private sector markets***, need only be subsidized - for a section of the population only - by government when neoliberal NAIRU market failure leaves the most disadvantaged homeless or hungry.

***food and housing are mostly produced by small businesses unable to determine market outcomes, gas is produced by big business able to determine global market pricing.

Quote:

Do you think food production should be derivatised because it is essential?

Addressed above.

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« Last Edit: Jun 5^th, 2022 at 6:22pm by thegreatdivide »

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48816 At my desk.	Re: privatisation Reply #250 - Jun 5^th, 2022 at 6:25pm Why is electricity a service and not a good? Quote: Essential services and essential goods? Market failures and essential services. On what basis do you think we should be deciding whether an industry should be run by the government or privately? You seemed to be arguing both are the reason.
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Grappler Truth Teller Feller Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 83318 Proud pre-1850's NO Voter Gender:	Re: privatisation Reply #251 - Jun 5^th, 2022 at 8:36pm How would we effect rapid transfer of troops by autobahn?
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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: privatisation
Reply #252 - Jun 5^th, 2022 at 8:39pm

Electricity is an essential to businesses and homes........ it should never be held hostage to privateering groups intent on profit first.... such profiteering has a negative effect on the entire economy, not least on the costs of living and of buying goods from businesses..... thus all suffer.

Same with transport/roads etc.... rail .... gas.....

Some things should be left in the hands of governments to charge running costs plus a little left over against future requirements....

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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Jasin Gold Member Offline Posts: 47293 Gender:	Re: privatisation Reply #253 - Jun 5^th, 2022 at 9:24pm The Government owns everyone's Private Parts. No wonder the domestic population growth here is so slow like a snail trail from a legless woman.
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freediver

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Re: privatisation
Reply #254 - Jun 5^th, 2022 at 9:30pm

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jun 5^th, 2022 at 8:39pm:

Electricity is an essential to businesses and homes........ it should never be held hostage to privateering groups intent on profit first.... such profiteering has a negative effect on the entire economy, not least on the costs of living and of buying goods from businesses..... thus all suffer.

Same with transport/roads etc.... rail .... gas.....

Some things should be left in the hands of governments to charge running costs plus a little left over against future requirements....

What is more essential - electricity, or food?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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