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freediver

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Re: privatisation
Reply #480 - May 22^nd, 2024 at 8:52pm

SadKangaroo wrote on May 22^nd, 2024 at 7:00pm:

freediver wrote on May 22^nd, 2024 at 5:24pm:

Quote:

Read the post...

I did. It focussed on the change from public to private. Not whether there is anything fundamental that means it should be one or the other. You have not provided any kind of rational argument for whether we are better off with any particular industry being public or private. Every time I ask you about a specific aspect of your argument, it turns out to be a red herring. I am yet to come across the bit that does not disappear as soon as you look at it.

It's there is black and white, it's not about the change from public to private as an ideology, but the change in priority when the service is government run vs privately run and in terms of vital infrastructure, the fact that we the public have to foot the bailout bill.

If you're not happy with that and want specifics you're going to need to choose an industry or services because there is no blanket right or wrong when it comes to privatisation.

Each instance is different.

I'm extending good faith here to unbelievable levels...

So it's not about the change, it's about the change?

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SadKangaroo

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Re: privatisation
Reply #481 - May 22^nd, 2024 at 9:14pm

freediver wrote on May 22^nd, 2024 at 8:52pm:

SadKangaroo wrote on May 22^nd, 2024 at 7:00pm:

freediver wrote on May 22^nd, 2024 at 5:24pm:

Quote:

Read the post...

I did. It focussed on the change from public to private. Not whether there is anything fundamental that means it should be one or the other. You have not provided any kind of rational argument for whether we are better off with any particular industry being public or private. Every time I ask you about a specific aspect of your argument, it turns out to be a red herring. I am yet to come across the bit that does not disappear as soon as you look at it.

It's there is black and white, it's not about the change from public to private as an ideology, but the change in priority when the service is government run vs privately run and in terms of vital infrastructure, the fact that we the public have to foot the bailout bill.

If you're not happy with that and want specifics you're going to need to choose an industry or services because there is no blanket right or wrong when it comes to privatisation.

Each instance is different.

I'm extending good faith here to unbelievable levels...

So it's not about the change, it's about the change?

You whinge about generalisations then want me to make a general statement of privatisation...

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freediver

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Re: privatisation
Reply #482 - May 22^nd, 2024 at 9:19pm

SadKangaroo wrote on May 22^nd, 2024 at 9:14pm:

freediver wrote on May 22^nd, 2024 at 8:52pm:

SadKangaroo wrote on May 22^nd, 2024 at 7:00pm:

freediver wrote on May 22^nd, 2024 at 5:24pm:

Quote:

Read the post...

I did. It focussed on the change from public to private. Not whether there is anything fundamental that means it should be one or the other. You have not provided any kind of rational argument for whether we are better off with any particular industry being public or private. Every time I ask you about a specific aspect of your argument, it turns out to be a red herring. I am yet to come across the bit that does not disappear as soon as you look at it.

It's there is black and white, it's not about the change from public to private as an ideology, but the change in priority when the service is government run vs privately run and in terms of vital infrastructure, the fact that we the public have to foot the bailout bill.

If you're not happy with that and want specifics you're going to need to choose an industry or services because there is no blanket right or wrong when it comes to privatisation.

Each instance is different.

I'm extending good faith here to unbelievable levels...

So it's not about the change, it's about the change?

You whinge about generalisations then want me to make a general statement of privatisation...

I would like you to make any statement at all, whose meaning does not disappear as soon as you look at it.

Economists make all sorts of broad as well as specific statements about exactly this topic, all backed up by entirely rational explanations. But they have nothing to do with whether it is considered essential, nor does it depend on the history.

BTW, what makes you think that a company run by the government will not be dictated by political expediency rather than the public interest?

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SadKangaroo

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Re: privatisation
Reply #483 - May 23^rd, 2024 at 10:06am

freediver wrote on May 22^nd, 2024 at 9:19pm:

I would like you to make any statement at all, whose meaning does not disappear as soon as you look at it.

Ok?

Quote:

Economists make all sorts of broad as well as specific statements about exactly this topic, all backed up by entirely rational explanations. But they have nothing to do with whether it is considered essential, nor does it depend on the history.

BTW, what makes you think that a company run by the government will not be dictated by political expediency rather than the public interest?

What exactly do you want?

If you want to play semantics and ignore reasoned answers that point to real-world examples, then you're going to need to articulate your questions without any wiggle room to ignore the answers.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48816 At my desk.	Re: privatisation Reply #484 - May 23^rd, 2024 at 10:10am I am not going to tell you what to say SK. It's not my fault you wrote all those long winded explanations of something you don't understand. It is not semantics. It is economics. People can starve if you get it wrong badly enough.
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SadKangaroo

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Re: privatisation
Reply #485 - May 23^rd, 2024 at 11:31am

freediver wrote on May 23^rd, 2024 at 10:10am:

I am not going to tell you what to say SK. It's not my fault you wrote all those long winded explanations of something you don't understand.

It is not semantics. It is economics. People can starve if you get it wrong badly enough.

I always thought more of you, I don't know why clearly.

Bath faith actor in sheeps clothing.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: privatisation
Reply #486 - May 23^rd, 2024 at 11:38am

freediver wrote on May 22^nd, 2024 at 5:24pm:

I did read the post.

So you now accept the difference between systems (private versus public) needed for production and marketing of food compared with electricty (both essential) - ie electricity is the same for all consumers, and requires only a small number of producers, whereas each consumer has different tastes in food (lettuce versus cucumbers versus various wheat products) requiring lots of different small producers to cater for each taste in the market.

The case for nationalization of the electricity market is overwhelming. Even Sir Thonmas Playford recognised that when he bought the Adelaide Electricity Company in the postwar Keynesian 'welfare state' era (before the disastrous Thatcherite 'small government' low tax/ privatization ideology ravaged community wellbeing, leading to the current homelessness and cost of living crisis.

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: privatisation
Reply #487 - May 23^rd, 2024 at 12:09pm

So let's just go for open slather in all areas....... charge!!! Might as well give up on trying to go private since it fails and you can never fully regulate - so let 'er rip!

I've always said that any viable society and economy is a mix of capitalist and socialist... Australia used to be that way more... until the advent of the New robber Barons fueled by greed and self-interest and rapacious behaviour in the market and well-versed in foreign ideas on how to steal a utility and crate a 'business' for yourself doing nothing that government couldn't do as well but without the need to endlessly feed parasites ...... well - different parasites and fewer of.... unless you count The People as the shareholders.....

Bring the bastards to heel... that'll do, pigs.... that'll do!!

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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freediver

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Re: privatisation
Reply #488 - May 23^rd, 2024 at 12:24pm

thegreatdivide wrote on May 23^rd, 2024 at 11:38am:

freediver wrote on May 22^nd, 2024 at 5:24pm:

I did read the post.

So you now accept the difference between systems (private versus public) needed for production and marketing of food compared with electricty (both essential) - ie electricity is the same for all consumers, and requires only a small number of producers, whereas each consumer has different tastes in food (lettuce versus cucumbers versus various wheat products) requiring lots of different small producers to cater for each taste in the market.

The case for nationalization of the electricity market is overwhelming. Even Sir Thonmas Playford recognised that when he bought the Adelaide Electricity Company in the postwar Keynesian 'welfare state' era (before the disastrous Thatcherite 'small government' low tax/ privatization ideology ravaged community wellbeing, leading to the current homelessness and cost of living crisis.

Whether it is a commodity is also irrelevant. By that argument you could say that wheat needs to be grown by the government.

Why should people not be allowed to own their own solar panels?

SadKangaroo wrote on May 23^rd, 2024 at 11:31am:

freediver wrote on May 23^rd, 2024 at 10:10am:

I am not going to tell you what to say SK. It's not my fault you wrote all those long winded explanations of something you don't understand.

It is not semantics. It is economics. People can starve if you get it wrong badly enough.

I always thought more of you, I don't know why clearly.

Bath faith actor in sheeps clothing.

Have you ever studied microeconomics?

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« Last Edit: May 23^rd, 2024 at 12:30pm by freediver »

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: privatisation
Reply #489 - May 23^rd, 2024 at 12:47pm

freediver wrote on May 23^rd, 2024 at 12:24pm:

Whether it is a commodity is also irrelevant. By that argument you could say that wheat needs to be grown by the government.

Ok, but commodities differ: maybe not wheat, but certainly not grapes, or fish, or canola, or lettuces or pumpkin or grapefruit or kiwi fruit ...or whatever food derived from those products YOU prefer to eat; ie YOU only choose between a fraction of the varieties of food made available to the market.

Better if the government doesn't try to choose which food you prefer...BUT, it's better if the government provides the electricity you need, to avoid market failure associated with monopolistic profit seekers in the production and wholesale/retail markets.

Quote:

Why should people not be allowed to own their own solar panels?

er ...nobody except you is saying that.

It's the connection with the privately owned grid and elecricity producers/marketers which is creating the present madness of charging people for the electricity they produce on their own roofs.

Keeping trying, you'll eventually run out of absurd questions...

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« Last Edit: May 23^rd, 2024 at 12:52pm by thegreatdivide »

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48816 At my desk.	Re: privatisation Reply #490 - May 23^rd, 2024 at 12:58pm So people should be allowed to have their own solar panels, but not to supply electricity to the grid?
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Grappler Truth Teller Feller Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 83297 Proud pre-1850's NO Voter Gender:	Re: privatisation Reply #491 - May 23^rd, 2024 at 9:47pm They already get their cut from the grid use from EVERYONE including solar panel owners. They can stick it up their class.
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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: privatisation
Reply #492 - May 23^rd, 2024 at 9:50pm

freediver wrote on May 23^rd, 2024 at 12:58pm:

So people should be allowed to have their own solar panels, but not to supply electricity to the grid?

Happy to - Albo should supply the batteries and the connections to relieve the poor suffering grid from our terrible abuse of it... and we'll go it alone - cut the wires.... sort of like a voluntary redundancy package. I'll have two of those big new Teslas thanks... that should ease the burden on the poles and wires from our dreadful input....

Never heard such stupidity and self-interest in my life.

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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SadKangaroo

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Re: privatisation
Reply #493 - May 24^th, 2024 at 10:41am

freediver wrote on May 23^rd, 2024 at 12:58pm:

So people should be allowed to have their own solar panels, but not to supply electricity to the grid?

So you're not talking about the government selling public assets to private businesses to run and continue providing the service to the public?

You've decided to redefine "privatisation" for your own ends?

Quote:

privatisation
noun
the transfer of a business, industry, or service from public to private ownership and control.
"the workers are opposing the privatization of the national rail company"

It was at least the topic when you started the thread,

freediver wrote on Apr 10^th, 2022 at 4:39pm:

Quote:

It's called 'privatisation', the selling off of state assets to stave off bankruptcy caused by the bank-created debt.

That's not why they do it.

But given your deceptive tactics so far, I'm sure you'll try to distract from the actual point and shoehorn the idea of individuals collecting rain water or generating their own solar power, even feeding it back into the grid, is the same as the traditional definition of privatisation.

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SadKangaroo Gold Member Offline #FightStupid Posts: 16531 Mianjin (Brisbane)	Re: privatisation Reply #494 - May 24^th, 2024 at 10:44am Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on May 23^rd, 2024 at 9:50pm: Never heard such stupidity and self-interest in my life. You're both getting outraged over something only the two of you are talking about... Oppression Olympics all over again.
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