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Dnarever

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Re: privatisation
Reply #645 - Feb 23^rd, 2025 at 1:59pm

Gnads wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2025 at 1:25pm:

Dnarever wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2025 at 1:03pm:

lee wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2025 at 2:45pm:

Dnarever wrote on Feb 21^st, 2025 at 9:25pm:

It may apply to wind farms in the centre of Australia. If there are any.

That research by the Snowy2 Commission said that SA already had periods of solar and wind drought.

"An example of when high amounts of storage would be needed include when there are wind or solar ‘droughts’. In South Australia across the financial years of 2015 and 2016, there was a deficit between average wind production and minimum wind production over a two-week period of 60GWh."

https://www.snowyhydro.com.au/snowy-20/faqs/

So why does Australia suffer wind and solar droughts?

"We therefore systematically analyse the relationship between compound solar radiation and wind speed droughts with weather systems and climate modes of variability over multiple time scales. We find that compound solar and wind droughts occur most frequently in winter, affecting at least five significant energy-producing regions simultaneously on 10% of days. The associated weather systems vary by season and by drought type, although widespread cloud cover and anticyclonic circulation patterns are common features.

...

Exploiting these spatial differences could minimise the variability of electricity generation across the grid by offsetting areas of low production with areas of higher production20,21,22,23,24,25. However, the possibility of weather-related grid-wide impacts cannot be ruled out. A combination of weather systems could align to concurrently reduce wind and solar energy potential over a large area. For example, there is a dynamical link between blocking highs that bring calm conditions over southeast Australia and cloudiness associated with tropical cyclones in Australia’s north26. Specific to renewable energy, a weather system featuring high pressure near Australia’s southwest has been related to low grid-wide supply, although not every occurrence of this weather pattern yields substantial reductions23."

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41612-023-00507-y

Yet we had these droughts without any customer impact because the effects were mitigated, the Snowy 2 scheme alleviates the issue for the next 100 years. So what are you jabbering about ? There is no problem here.

SA can provide cheap wind and solar energy when available and they have backup power supply guaranteed for 100 Years covering when they cannot.

Quack quack - pumped hydro is not cheap power.

It is when it is needed under 2% of the time.

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 18101 Gender:	Re: privatisation Reply #646 - Feb 23^rd, 2025 at 2:16pm Dnarever wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2025 at 1:59pm: It is when it is needed under 2% of the time. Now all you have to do is work how to make renewables work better than 98% of the time. Averages for a week or a month don't count.
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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 18101 Gender:	Re: privatisation Reply #647 - Feb 23^rd, 2025 at 2:19pm Dnarever wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2025 at 1:05pm: Yes so they normally provide solar and wind power when it is available and have a backup supply available for when it isn't. I cannot see a problem here ? You do know a goodly portion is fossil fuelled?
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lee

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Re: privatisation
Reply #648 - Feb 23^rd, 2025 at 2:25pm

Dnarever wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2025 at 1:03pm:

Yet we had these droughts without any customer impact because the effects were mitigated, the Snowy 2 scheme alleviates the issue for the next 100 years.

You mean the Snowy 2.0 that still isn't completed, over time, over budget. Just how much will it cost and when will it come online? Roll Eyes

No impact? When AEMO warns of blackouts?

"The national energy market operator has issued new warnings of possible summer blackouts in coming years, due to delays in key transmission projects and looming retirements of coal generators. "

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-05-21/aemo-warns-of-increased-blackout-risks-ov...

You really don't pay much attention, do you? Grin

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freediver

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Re: privatisation
Reply #649 - Feb 23^rd, 2025 at 4:31pm

Dnarever wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2025 at 1:59pm:

Gnads wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2025 at 1:25pm:

Dnarever wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2025 at 1:03pm:

lee wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2025 at 2:45pm:

Dnarever wrote on Feb 21^st, 2025 at 9:25pm:

It may apply to wind farms in the centre of Australia. If there are any.

That research by the Snowy2 Commission said that SA already had periods of solar and wind drought.

"An example of when high amounts of storage would be needed include when there are wind or solar ‘droughts’. In South Australia across the financial years of 2015 and 2016, there was a deficit between average wind production and minimum wind production over a two-week period of 60GWh."

https://www.snowyhydro.com.au/snowy-20/faqs/

So why does Australia suffer wind and solar droughts?

"We therefore systematically analyse the relationship between compound solar radiation and wind speed droughts with weather systems and climate modes of variability over multiple time scales. We find that compound solar and wind droughts occur most frequently in winter, affecting at least five significant energy-producing regions simultaneously on 10% of days. The associated weather systems vary by season and by drought type, although widespread cloud cover and anticyclonic circulation patterns are common features.

...

Exploiting these spatial differences could minimise the variability of electricity generation across the grid by offsetting areas of low production with areas of higher production20,21,22,23,24,25. However, the possibility of weather-related grid-wide impacts cannot be ruled out. A combination of weather systems could align to concurrently reduce wind and solar energy potential over a large area. For example, there is a dynamical link between blocking highs that bring calm conditions over southeast Australia and cloudiness associated with tropical cyclones in Australia’s north26. Specific to renewable energy, a weather system featuring high pressure near Australia’s southwest has been related to low grid-wide supply, although not every occurrence of this weather pattern yields substantial reductions23."

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41612-023-00507-y

Yet we had these droughts without any customer impact because the effects were mitigated, the Snowy 2 scheme alleviates the issue for the next 100 years. So what are you jabbering about ? There is no problem here.

SA can provide cheap wind and solar energy when available and they have backup power supply guaranteed for 100 Years covering when they cannot.

Quack quack - pumped hydro is not cheap power.

It is when it is needed under 2% of the time.

You can use it as often as you want. I doubt there is any Australian pumped hydro scheme that is running less than 2% of the time. All you need is roughly a factor of 2 wholesale price difference at predictable times during each day and it will get used every day. You would expect to get that just from demand fluctuations.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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aquascoot

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Re: privatisation
Reply #650 - Feb 23^rd, 2025 at 5:02pm

lee wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2025 at 2:25pm:

Dnarever wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2025 at 1:03pm:

Yet we had these droughts without any customer impact because the effects were mitigated, the Snowy 2 scheme alleviates the issue for the next 100 years.

You mean the Snowy 2.0 that still isn't completed, over time, over budget. Just how much will it cost and when will it come online? Roll Eyes

No impact? When AEMO warns of blackouts?

"The national energy market operator has issued new warnings of possible summer blackouts in coming years, due to delays in key transmission projects and looming retirements of coal generators. "

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-05-21/aemo-warns-of-increased-blackout-risks-ov...

You really don't pay much attention, do you? Grin

smart countries buy australian coal and burn it to get cheap power

energy security is economic security

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Gnads

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Re: privatisation
Reply #651 - Feb 23^rd, 2025 at 6:08pm

Dnarever wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2025 at 1:59pm:

Gnads wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2025 at 1:25pm:

Dnarever wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2025 at 1:03pm:

lee wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2025 at 2:45pm:

Dnarever wrote on Feb 21^st, 2025 at 9:25pm:

It may apply to wind farms in the centre of Australia. If there are any.

That research by the Snowy2 Commission said that SA already had periods of solar and wind drought.

"An example of when high amounts of storage would be needed include when there are wind or solar ‘droughts’. In South Australia across the financial years of 2015 and 2016, there was a deficit between average wind production and minimum wind production over a two-week period of 60GWh."

https://www.snowyhydro.com.au/snowy-20/faqs/

So why does Australia suffer wind and solar droughts?

"We therefore systematically analyse the relationship between compound solar radiation and wind speed droughts with weather systems and climate modes of variability over multiple time scales. We find that compound solar and wind droughts occur most frequently in winter, affecting at least five significant energy-producing regions simultaneously on 10% of days. The associated weather systems vary by season and by drought type, although widespread cloud cover and anticyclonic circulation patterns are common features.

...

Exploiting these spatial differences could minimise the variability of electricity generation across the grid by offsetting areas of low production with areas of higher production20,21,22,23,24,25. However, the possibility of weather-related grid-wide impacts cannot be ruled out. A combination of weather systems could align to concurrently reduce wind and solar energy potential over a large area. For example, there is a dynamical link between blocking highs that bring calm conditions over southeast Australia and cloudiness associated with tropical cyclones in Australia’s north26. Specific to renewable energy, a weather system featuring high pressure near Australia’s southwest has been related to low grid-wide supply, although not every occurrence of this weather pattern yields substantial reductions23."

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41612-023-00507-y

Yet we had these droughts without any customer impact because the effects were mitigated, the Snowy 2 scheme alleviates the issue for the next 100 years. So what are you jabbering about ? There is no problem here.

SA can provide cheap wind and solar energy when available and they have backup power supply guaranteed for 100 Years covering when they cannot.

Quack quack - pumped hydro is not cheap power.

It is when it is needed under 2% of the time.

Never will be because it's not cheap to pump water up to the top storage.

And if it's needed under 2% of the time it can never justify the costs & blowouts to build it.

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« Last Edit: Feb 23^rd, 2025 at 6:13pm by Gnads »

"When you are dead, you do not know you are dead. It's only painful and difficult for others. The same applies when you are stupid." ~ Ricky Gervais

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Gnads

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Re: privatisation
Reply #652 - Feb 23^rd, 2025 at 6:11pm

Dnarever wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2025 at 1:58pm:

Gnads wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2025 at 1:27pm:

freediver wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2025 at 1:24pm:

lee wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2025 at 12:54pm:

Yes it is. And relies on the interconnectors for their power when the sun don't shine and the wind don't blow.

Oh, the horror.

Do you actually have a point with that statement? Roll Eyes

Because what the interconnector to SA shows is that it can not operate on it's renewables alone.

It still requires coal or gas fired generation to operate.

One of Lee's links shows the plan to use the Snowy scheme to supplement with hydro with a 100 year guarantee? Wind sun and water.

And that's why Sth Australia has the highest electricity prices in Australia.

You conveniently ignore that fact.

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"When you are dead, you do not know you are dead. It's only painful and difficult for others. The same applies when you are stupid." ~ Ricky Gervais

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thegreatdivide

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Re: privatisation
Reply #653 - Feb 24^th, 2025 at 1:47pm

Dnarever wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2025 at 1:59pm:

Gnads wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2025 at 1:25pm:

Dnarever wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2025 at 1:03pm:

lee wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2025 at 2:45pm:

Dnarever wrote on Feb 21^st, 2025 at 9:25pm:

It may apply to wind farms in the centre of Australia. If there are any.

That research by the Snowy2 Commission said that SA already had periods of solar and wind drought.

"An example of when high amounts of storage would be needed include when there are wind or solar ‘droughts’. In South Australia across the financial years of 2015 and 2016, there was a deficit between average wind production and minimum wind production over a two-week period of 60GWh."

https://www.snowyhydro.com.au/snowy-20/faqs/

So why does Australia suffer wind and solar droughts?

"We therefore systematically analyse the relationship between compound solar radiation and wind speed droughts with weather systems and climate modes of variability over multiple time scales. We find that compound solar and wind droughts occur most frequently in winter, affecting at least five significant energy-producing regions simultaneously on 10% of days. The associated weather systems vary by season and by drought type, although widespread cloud cover and anticyclonic circulation patterns are common features.

...

Exploiting these spatial differences could minimise the variability of electricity generation across the grid by offsetting areas of low production with areas of higher production20,21,22,23,24,25. However, the possibility of weather-related grid-wide impacts cannot be ruled out. A combination of weather systems could align to concurrently reduce wind and solar energy potential over a large area. For example, there is a dynamical link between blocking highs that bring calm conditions over southeast Australia and cloudiness associated with tropical cyclones in Australia’s north26. Specific to renewable energy, a weather system featuring high pressure near Australia’s southwest has been related to low grid-wide supply, although not every occurrence of this weather pattern yields substantial reductions23."

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41612-023-00507-y

Yet we had these droughts without any customer impact because the effects were mitigated, the Snowy 2 scheme alleviates the issue for the next 100 years. So what are you jabbering about ? There is no problem here.

SA can provide cheap wind and solar energy when available and they have backup power supply guaranteed for 100 Years covering when they cannot.

Quack quack - pumped hydro is not cheap power.

It is when it is needed under 2% of the time.

And when it's powered by free sunshine which is excess to current requirements - which is what pumped hydro storage (aka a 'big battery') is all about.

Poor lee's brain is crippled by his free market, AGW-CO2 climate-denial ideoogy.

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lee

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Re: privatisation
Reply #654 - Feb 24^th, 2025 at 1:57pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 24^th, 2025 at 1:47pm:

And when it's powered by free sunshine which is excess to current requirements - which is what pumped hydro storage (aka a 'big battery') is all about.

Only when it's "in excess". Grin

Except the pumped hydro (aka a 'big battery') won't last 7 days, in the event of solar and wind drought. You keep forgetting that.

thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 24^th, 2025 at 1:47pm:

Poor lee's brain is crippled by his free market, AGW-CO2 climate-denial ideoogy.

And once again off with the fairies, proclaiming things never stated. You are such a tosser. Grin

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thegreatdivide

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Re: privatisation
Reply #655 - Feb 24^th, 2025 at 2:00pm

Gnads wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2025 at 1:15pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 21^st, 2025 at 10:34am:

lee wrote on Feb 20^th, 2025 at 5:21pm:

[quote author=AusbetterWorld link=1649572754/627#627 date=1740034932]

That doesn't overcome the problem of the sun not shining, or the wind not blowing where you have them. Roll Eyes

Low IQ comment: that's why the country-wide interconnected grid is necessary.

Quote:

And if there is no new company after the spend?

Low IQ question: a latest tech steel-producer will exist, regardless of who owns it, being vital national infrastructure.

Quote:

Until such time as it turns to shite. But they will be happy until then. Roll Eyes

Er - Oz scientists and engineers know how to create the best quality steel, regardless of market failure due to 'economies of scale' which are irrelevant in the case of vital national industries.

Quote:

Just another Politician scrambling to get elected. Roll Eyes

Such are the stupidities of 50% +1 democratic politics.

Quote:

Cars, televisions, steel. So what you want is a massive tariff overhaul to make imported goods more expensive than locally produced goods. Roll Eyes

Low IQ distortion of what I said, namely, supporting value-adding in Oz, the world's largest exporter of iron ore and coking coal. Paris is summoning....

Quote:

But lovely China will provide. /sarc Cool

Low IQ lee can't even see when he contradicts himself; indeed China can produce all the steel the world needs, at the lowest price; and if 'free-market' lee had his way, other steel manufacturers around the world would certainly disapppear.

Quote:

Nothing that comes from the Green Wet Dream, that only makes goods more expensive. Just why are subsidies so high for renewables? Roll Eyes

The Paris Agreement needs to be implemented, despite lee's disinformation campaign.

Quote:

Remember that thing about South Australia having 7 day solar and wind droughts? How big a battery would you need to for a new steel plant as well as the ongoing electrification of SA.

Low IQ; hence the state interconnectors - dummy.

And yes, we should be begin a nuclear industry in Oz, to reduce reliance on big batteries, while rolling out renewables/exiting coal ASAP, a much better use of Oz resources than building useless nuclear subs, if it comes down to allocation of available resources and a skilled workforce.

Meanwhile, even Dutton knows he can pay for nuclear - governments can deficit spend.

The interconnectors are so the states that are still generating reliable coal fired power can prop up those that have gone down the renewables path(Sth Aust) lock, stock & barrel to pull them out of the shyte.

Wrong again: that's what the interconnectors WERE for ie to secure against fossil fuel outages in any state.

Quote:

SA has one distribution network – SA Power Networks. The average electricity rate for this network is 45.3c/kWh, making it the most expensive state for electricity in Australia.

And in the transition to a green economy, SA - like everyone - needs a NEW interconnected grid to connect a vastly expanded renewble enegy network including rooftop solar, on/off-shore wind, 'sun-cable scale producers, big batteries, etc.

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lee

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Re: privatisation
Reply #656 - Feb 24^th, 2025 at 2:29pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 24^th, 2025 at 2:00pm:

Wrong again: that's what the interconnectors WERE for ie to secure against fossil fuel outages in any state.

They still do, no "were" about it. The grid can't tell whether it is a connection for fossil fuel or not, it has no capability to only supply "green" energy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 24^th, 2025 at 2:00pm:

And in the transition to a green economy, SA - like everyone - needs a NEW interconnected grid to connect a vastly expanded renewble enegy network including rooftop solar, on/off-shore wind, 'sun-cable scale producers, big batteries, etc.

Ah yes Labor's big plan out to 2050. Grin

All those "vastly expanded"'s, sun-cable producers, big batteries to provide more than a few minutes power; come with a huge cost. And somewhere there you are going to fit in "the necessary resources won't produce inflation" Grin

Tell us how cheap those renewable subsidies are again. Wink

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thegreatdivide

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Re: privatisation
Reply #657 - Feb 24^th, 2025 at 3:09pm

aquascoot wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2025 at 5:02pm:

lee wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2025 at 2:25pm:

Dnarever wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2025 at 1:03pm:

Yet we had these droughts without any customer impact because the effects were mitigated, the Snowy 2 scheme alleviates the issue for the next 100 years.

You mean the Snowy 2.0 that still isn't completed, over time, over budget. Just how much will it cost and when will it come online? Roll Eyes

No impact? When AEMO warns of blackouts?

"The national energy market operator has issued new warnings of possible summer blackouts in coming years, due to delays in key transmission projects and looming retirements of coal generators. "

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-05-21/aemo-warns-of-increased-blackout-risks-ov...

You really don't pay much attention, do you? Grin

smart countries buy australian coal and burn it to get cheap power

If AGW-CO2 climate change is real, those countries won't be too "smart"....

Quote:

energy security is economic security

Yes, so we better get on with achieving energy security via non-CO2-emitting energy sources.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: privatisation
Reply #658 - Feb 24^th, 2025 at 3:23pm

Gnads wrote on Feb 21^st, 2025 at 10:14am:

Durrrrh Roll Eyes

Yes, deluded people suffer from that affliction.

Quote:

SA very rarely has any excess that goes to the east.

Becuase we don't have the required grid connecting rooftop solar, resulting in energy going to waste in the middle of sunny days.

Stop being as dumb as lee.

Quote:

BIG BATTERIES - will only ever be short term(a couple of hours if that) supplemental and frequency stabilizers.

Small household batteries on every house will reduce the drain on big batteries, especially with nuclear in the mix, if necessary.

Quote:

You have to cover the whole state with panels & turbines just to power Adelaide. Roll Eyes

Nonsense, see above.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: privatisation
Reply #659 - Feb 24^th, 2025 at 3:46pm

lee wrote on Feb 24^th, 2025 at 1:57pm:

TGD: "Poor lee's brain is crippled by his free market, AGW-CO2 climate-denial ideoogy."

lee: And once again off with the fairies, proclaiming things never stated. You are such a tosser. Grin

Note: lee's 'climate hoax' delusion and 'efficient free narket' delusions are, by definition, beyond lee's capacity to see through those delusions (hence his claim re "things never stated) - because delusions are not amenable to evidence such as record rains and flooding on the East coast leading to inability to insure houses, and market failure caused by insisting that private companies must be 'cost effective' without government subsidies, while preventing nationalization of essential industry - which is taboo in the delusional religion of free markets.

Face it, GFG's backer is a failed private investor, meaning they could no longer pay their debts; it's time for the government to turf them out.

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