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privatisation (Read 27882 times)
Gnads
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Re: privatisation
Reply #90 - Apr 12th, 2022 at 7:39am
 
aquascoot wrote on Apr 11th, 2022 at 7:54pm:
Jovial Monk wrote on Apr 11th, 2022 at 7:15pm:
Private owners ONLY want profit and LOTS of it and STUFF improving the privatised (sold of cheap!) asset.

Geez, you are naive FD!



incorrect.


the best things that keep getting improved are made by private companies

just look at smart phones and tv's.


every year they get better and better.

anything done by government is catastrophic and usually a failure.

what do people complain about most

public hospitals, teaching standards, public housing, delays at centrelink.

the private company delivers or the public dont support it.

the public company has a monopoly and the workers bounce out of bed, with the aim of spending as much time as possible gossipping at the water fountain


Hardly comparable to the secure provision of essential services like electricity & power.

I worked for a Govt owned Railway for 38 years, they always had the best in locomotives & rollingstock ..... and knew how to run a rail business.

In 2010 the freight side of the Rail company(QR) was sold off/floated on the stock market....

it's just about rooted now -- the container freight side has again been sold off allowing 1 company Pacific National a virtual monopoly on container freight on the whole east coast/states of Australia.

A well run monopoly that QR once had in QLD was deemed not allowable for a Govt body(stupid plagiarized Hilmer Report) ..... has now been allowed to be held by private enterprise.

The ACCC is as useless as tits on a boar pig.

Look at how the NZ, Tasmanian & Victorian Govts had to take back control of their Rail companies & assets because of the failure of private enterprise ... who ran it into the ground & just packed up & left.
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Gnads
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Re: privatisation
Reply #91 - Apr 12th, 2022 at 7:41am
 
freediver wrote on Apr 11th, 2022 at 8:26pm:
Quote:
Nobody is saying that manufactured products should be privatised or would be done better. This is driven by profit. While there are huge problems in this type of manufacturing it is outside of this topic. None of these industries were ever public companies and there has never been any intention to privatise them.


Are you suggesting it is the history of an industry that should determine whether it is privatised?

Quote:
Public hospitals are mostly great and they along with Medicare keep the private system functioning. The Private medical system is highly subsidised by the government and Medicare as well as the government system taking on their excess load and functions that the private sector hospitals cannot.

Public schools are about the top standard with a select wealthy few able to attend the very top privates.

Privatisation in Telecommunications, banking, insurance, power etc have all been a disaster. The were all sold at a bargain basement price where the people (The owners never got value for money). Service standards dropped and cost escalated across the board. Privatisation has been an embarrassing corrupt failure in almost every case.


If public schools are so great, why are so many people willing to pay a small fortune to buy a private education for their children and forgo what the government offers them for free?

Same with health care.

All of your examples are meaningless gibberish. It is better because you say it is better, but you have obviously put no thought at all into the truth of what you are saying, or even how to identify the truth.

Take electricity for example. It is a commodity. It leaves no wiggle room for you to blurt out that public electricity is of better quality than private. All we have is price and reliability. Both easily measured. For all the endless whinging about transferring electricity production to the private sector, why has no one presented a shred of objective evidence that it is actually worse?


Because they can afford to ...... & they're elitist snot nosed twerps like you.
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Gnads
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Re: privatisation
Reply #92 - Apr 12th, 2022 at 7:45am
 
freediver wrote on Apr 11th, 2022 at 9:10pm:
John Smith wrote on Apr 11th, 2022 at 9:09pm:
freediver wrote on Apr 11th, 2022 at 9:06pm:
What economic theories do you think have been disproven?



which one hasn't?


Are you asking me to guess what you meant again, because you have absolutely no idea what you are on about?



Go into politics .... you never answer a question.

Always reply with a question.

Complete dishonesty.
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thegreatdivide
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Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)
Reply #93 - Apr 12th, 2022 at 10:46am
 
SadKangaroo wrote on Apr 11th, 2022 at 11:51am:
freediver wrote on Apr 10th, 2022 at 8:28pm:
How do you know this?


Privatisation transfers the model of the entity away from service to profit.

When you do this on an infrastructure level, especially when there are protections for the company when things go wrong and governments willing to bail them out because they simply can't fail, it's even worse.

But we're getting way ahead of ourselves.

The notion that the Government shouldn't run/own anything is incredibly short-sighted and is ideologically based.  Even likening it to communism only strengthens that argument.

I know there are far more important examples of infrastructure, but take Broadband as an example.

The private ISPs put money into the most profitable areas and that was it.  Regional let alone Rural Australia was left out.  Even Telstra's billions they wanted to spend pre-NBN, it was only in profitable areas and they wanted exemptions to their minimum service obligations under legislation in return.

The private sector was never going to operate services at a loss, even if they can recoup those costs from the inner city customers, it's just not good business.  If a Government has to legislate the servicing of those unprofitable areas, what's the point of privatising?

Power, Water, Health etc, it's all the same.

There is no doubt there can be bloat when the government-run these entities, but we can learn from overseas how to manage these sorts of issues, like say Singapore.

But instead, we get told from one side of politics that the private sector can do it better but time and time again, in terms of service, that's proven to be wrong.

We know what they mean by "do it better" is actually making money.  Those services, and the people that use them (again, Power, Water, Health etc) become the commodity under these models.

Not only does the business model change from Service to Profit, but that profit comes by commoditising us and when things go wrong, because they're vital services and infrastructure, we have to pay a second time when our taxes are used to fix the problem/bail them out.

Gold Coast water was an example.  The local council had to buy back the company because costs were skyrocketing and service levels, repairs, started falling.  Water!

It should have never been privatised in the first place, but now we're left with a massive tax bill due to broken contacts that will be paid off for many many years to come.

I'm not flat out anti-privatisation, there are some use cases for it, but the notion that the private sector do it better and more efficiently and Government shouldn't run/own these entities, as a blanket statement I do not support.


This excellent critique of privatization has been transferred to the Modern Monetary Theory thread, post #130.
[The MMT thread explores the reasons why governments adopted privatization as a policy choice,   and examines solutions to counter the problems associated  with privatization].

https://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1645944963/120#130



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thegreatdivide
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Re: privatisation
Reply #94 - Apr 12th, 2022 at 10:48am
 
Gnads wrote on Apr 12th, 2022 at 7:45am:
Go into politics .... you never answer a question.

Always reply with a question.

Complete dishonesty.


Indeed, freediver is an ideological fraud by his own admission, see post #24. ....("FTW", anything to win the debate....)
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« Last Edit: Apr 12th, 2022 at 10:55am by thegreatdivide »  
 
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Dnarever
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Re: privatisation
Reply #95 - Apr 12th, 2022 at 11:51am
 
freediver wrote on Apr 11th, 2022 at 9:06pm:
Quote:
Typically not but it was the reason behind NSW's Labor's attempted power sell off.

Simply the NSW government could not afford the necessary upgrades and maintenance due to a long period of neglect.

So it isn't always the reason but it can be.


Just in case anyone has forgotten this little gem.


One case of a justified sell off. This is the full list.

Note: this sell off was blocked - it didn't happen.

In fact this when done later by the Liberal state government they sold off Vales point power station for $1 Million. The buyer redefined the expected date to retire the plant and re valued it to $750 Million.

Yes The Liberals did in fact give their business mate a $749 million dollar discount. 2 years later the prime business man involved received an AO from the Liberal government.
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Re: privatisation
Reply #96 - Apr 12th, 2022 at 12:01pm
 
freediver wrote on Apr 11th, 2022 at 8:26pm:
Quote:
Nobody is saying that manufactured products should be privatised or would be done better. This is driven by profit. While there are huge problems in this type of manufacturing it is outside of this topic. None of these industries were ever public companies and there has never been any intention to privatise them.


Are you suggesting it is the history of an industry that should determine whether it is privatised?

Quote:
Public hospitals are mostly great and they along with Medicare keep the private system functioning. The Private medical system is highly subsidised by the government and Medicare as well as the government system taking on their excess load and functions that the private sector hospitals cannot.

Public schools are about the top standard with a select wealthy few able to attend the very top privates.

Privatisation in Telecommunications, banking, insurance, power etc have all been a disaster. The were all sold at a bargain basement price where the people (The owners never got value for money). Service standards dropped and cost escalated across the board. Privatisation has been an embarrassing corrupt failure in almost every case.


If public schools are so great, why are so many people willing to pay a small fortune to buy a private education for their children and forgo what the government offers them for free?

Same with health care.

All of your examples are meaningless gibberish. It is better because you say it is better, but you have obviously put no thought at all into the truth of what you are saying, or even how to identify the truth.

Take electricity for example. It is a commodity. It leaves no wiggle room for you to blurt out that public electricity is of better quality than private. All we have is price and reliability. Both easily measured. For all the endless whinging about transferring electricity production to the private sector, why has no one presented a shred of objective evidence that it is actually worse?


Quote:
If public schools are so great, why are so many people willing to pay a small fortune to buy a private education for their children and forgo what the government offers them for free?


Well under the private only model those who cannot pay get no education. here we have a system where those who can pay to send a child to an expensive private they can but everyone is entitled to a great education. And then you find that as often as not the public schools end up leading the education standards results and receive the top grades.
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Re: privatisation
Reply #97 - Apr 12th, 2022 at 12:12pm
 
Bobby. wrote on Apr 11th, 2022 at 9:25pm:
John Smith wrote on Apr 11th, 2022 at 9:11pm:
Bobby. wrote on Apr 11th, 2022 at 8:56pm:
So in that case the Govt. service was no good.

except for the 'govt service' that keeps the private hospital running Cheesy



Actually it was at a major large hospital and guess what?

The operating theater was the same one as used by the public patients.
Only the ward I was staying at was different -
my own private room and better food.


In my area if you go to the private hospital for an elective surgery they will be fine but if there are problems especially after hours they will organise an ambulance to get you to the public hospital where you can be treated for serious medical problems.
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Re: privatisation
Reply #98 - Apr 12th, 2022 at 12:13pm
 
Dnarever wrote on Apr 12th, 2022 at 12:01pm:
freediver wrote on Apr 11th, 2022 at 8:26pm:
Quote:
Nobody is saying that manufactured products should be privatised or would be done better. This is driven by profit. While there are huge problems in this type of manufacturing it is outside of this topic. None of these industries were ever public companies and there has never been any intention to privatise them.


Are you suggesting it is the history of an industry that should determine whether it is privatised?

Quote:
Public hospitals are mostly great and they along with Medicare keep the private system functioning. The Private medical system is highly subsidised by the government and Medicare as well as the government system taking on their excess load and functions that the private sector hospitals cannot.

Public schools are about the top standard with a select wealthy few able to attend the very top privates.

Privatisation in Telecommunications, banking, insurance, power etc have all been a disaster. The were all sold at a bargain basement price where the people (The owners never got value for money). Service standards dropped and cost escalated across the board. Privatisation has been an embarrassing corrupt failure in almost every case.


If public schools are so great, why are so many people willing to pay a small fortune to buy a private education for their children and forgo what the government offers them for free?

Same with health care.

All of your examples are meaningless gibberish. It is better because you say it is better, but you have obviously put no thought at all into the truth of what you are saying, or even how to identify the truth.

Take electricity for example. It is a commodity. It leaves no wiggle room for you to blurt out that public electricity is of better quality than private. All we have is price and reliability. Both easily measured. For all the endless whinging about transferring electricity production to the private sector, why has no one presented a shred of objective evidence that it is actually worse?


Quote:
If public schools are so great, why are so many people willing to pay a small fortune to buy a private education for their children and forgo what the government offers them for free?


Well under the private only model those who cannot pay get no education. here we have a system where those who can pay to send a child to an expensive private they can but everyone is entitled to a great education. And then you find that as often as not the public schools end up leading the education standards results and receive the top grades.


... not to mention socialisation with all 'levels' of society as opposed to the Spoilt Brat sector that goes into the family business of politics etc, and have zero idea of anything of substance that affects society.
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thegreatdivide
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Re: privatisation
Reply #99 - Apr 12th, 2022 at 1:16pm
 
Dnarever wrote on Apr 12th, 2022 at 11:51am:
..... it was the reason behind NSW's Labor's attempted power sell off.

Simply the NSW government could not afford the necessary upgrades and maintenance due to a long period of neglect.


Quote:
One case of a justified sell off.


The self-off of an essential public service is never justified, these should always remain in public hands, because the need for private profits means workers wages will be subject to downward pressure, and maintenance costs will be cut/avoided more than they should be. 

Quote:
Note: this sell off was blocked - it didn't happen.

In fact this when done later by the Liberal state government


Yes; and the fact the ALP ALSO thought it had to sell off this essential public service - to "raise money" - shows how useless the ALP has become, a stooge for mainstream neoliberal economic policies.

The problem being  the creation of money as debt (originally regarded as sinful - "usury"-  by the world's religions): see the discussion in Modern Monetary Theory (post #131) re the history of money creation, and how we have inherited the current debt-money system.....and why currency-issuing governments are forced to tax private citizens (which governments are increasingly unable to do) or borrow from private financiers/banksters.

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« Last Edit: Apr 12th, 2022 at 1:44pm by thegreatdivide »  
 
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Re: privatisation
Reply #100 - Apr 12th, 2022 at 5:09pm
 
freediver wrote on Apr 11th, 2022 at 9:44pm:
Have I caught you telling lies yet again again John?

Which economic theories am I chanting? And how have they been proven false countless times?



you have no idea what you say do you? No wonder you struggle so to work out what others are saying. How can you when you don't even know what you are saying


freediver wrote on Apr 10th, 2022 at 7:53pm:
- the government should not be running these businesses in the first place.

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Re: privatisation
Reply #101 - Apr 12th, 2022 at 5:10pm
 
freediver wrote on Apr 11th, 2022 at 9:44pm:
Given that pretty much every developed country is steadily privatising assets, don't you think it is a good idea to tell them about these disproven economic theories, in case they too as basing their decisions on them?



It won't matter what I tell them. They're only interested in lining their own pockets and as long as they have fools like you to spread their lies for them, they'll continue to do so.
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John Smith
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Re: privatisation
Reply #102 - Apr 12th, 2022 at 5:14pm
 
Bobby. wrote on Apr 11th, 2022 at 9:25pm:
John Smith wrote on Apr 11th, 2022 at 9:11pm:
Bobby. wrote on Apr 11th, 2022 at 8:56pm:
So in that case the Govt. service was no good.

except for the 'govt service' that keeps the private hospital running Cheesy



Actually it was at a major large hospital and guess what?

The operating theater was the same one as used by the public patients.
Only the ward I was staying at was different -
my own private room and better food.



In just about any private hospital if a patient needs emergency surgery, they'll rush you to a public hospital. Private hospitals aren't there to provide care, they are there to make a profit. There is no way they are going to pay a team of surgeons to remain on standby  24/7.

Personally I don't think public hospitals should accept patients from private hospitals ... then you'll see their whole business model collapse and the whole 'private does it better' argument would fall apart in a heartbeat.
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Re: privatisation
Reply #103 - Apr 12th, 2022 at 5:15pm
 
aquascoot wrote on Apr 12th, 2022 at 5:12am:
John Smith wrote on Apr 11th, 2022 at 9:03pm:
aquascoot wrote on Apr 11th, 2022 at 7:54pm:
incorrect.


the best things that keep getting improved are made by private companies

just look at smart phones and tv's.

every year they get better and better.



Rubbish. They're not improving phones because they want to make them better for you, They're improving phones because they are trying to increase or maintain market share. If they could get away with selling you the same old nokia 5110 they were selling you decades ago, they would do it in a heartbeat.





aquascoot wrote on Apr 11th, 2022 at 7:54pm:
anything done by government is catastrophic and usually a failure.


more rubbish.





they increase market share by making them better for you, idiot  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes


no, they increase market share by making it better than their competition. They don't give a bugger about ME.
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Re: privatisation
Reply #104 - Apr 12th, 2022 at 5:36pm
 
freediver wrote on Apr 11th, 2022 at 8:26pm:
Quote:
Nobody is saying that manufactured products should be privatised or would be done better. This is driven by profit. While there are huge problems in this type of manufacturing it is outside of this topic. None of these industries were ever public companies and there has never been any intention to privatise them.


Are you suggesting it is the history of an industry that should determine whether it is privatised?



It seems frustrating to be asked to explain the obvious, things that you obviously do know yourself.

It isn't determined by the history but the history displayed the position. There are industries that historically have been part of the competitive market most this is because it is where they belong. Things that may even benefit from competition that are not essential services or not of national importance.

Things like education, healthcare power, water that need to be supplied with little or less dedication to profits Telecommunications with monopoly issues with scale service and national security belong in public hands.

These things that belong and fit better in public hands produce risk and suffer when privatised.

Industries related to production of goods have always been private industries as they belong in the competitive market. They are not there because of the history but the are there in the history because that is where they belong. There is no case to say there would be any benefit in the nationalisation of these functions.

It would be just as ludicrous to nationalize yo-yo manufacture as it is to privatise education or power.




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