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Mask mandates didn't do anything (Read 19442 times)
Carl D
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Re: Mask mandates didn't do anything
Reply #255 - Oct 22nd, 2022 at 8:25pm
 
Sprintcyclist wrote on Oct 22nd, 2022 at 7:32pm:
I think due to the mass vaccinations, most people having had covid  and declining death rates, the overall risk has greatly abated.
I do not think it has been declared 'over'.

Quote:
.........  Thu 15 Sep 2022 05.00 AEST
The end of the Covid-19 pandemic is “in sight”, the World Health Organization has declared, after revealing that weekly deaths from the virus around the world were at the lowest level since March 2020.        .........


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/sep/14/end-of-covid-pandemic-in-sight-say...


Ah, yes. "The end of the pandemic is in sight".

Which was immediately 'pounced upon' by the media as meaning "the pandemic is over" and our governments did nothing to correct this misinformation from the media. No surprise there.

And, they also conveniently ignored this part:

Quote:
The director general of the international health body, Dr Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus, told a press conference: “Last week, the number of weekly reported deaths from Covid-19 was the lowest since March 2020.

“We have never been in a better position to end the pandemic – we are not there yet, but the end is in sight.

“A marathon runner does not stop when the finish line comes into view, she runs harder, with all the energy she has left. So must we.

“We can see the finish line, we’re in a winning position. But now is the worst time to stop running. Now is the time to run harder and make sure we cross the line and reap the rewards of all our hard work.”

Tedros added: “If we don’t take this opportunity now, we run the risk of more variants, more deaths, more disruption and more uncertainty. So let’s seize this opportunity.”


Needless to say - Australia (and most western countries) are not doing that and they've "stopped running". In fact, here in Australia they've removed all remaining Covid protections such as masks and isolation for infected people.

And now, more newer vaccine and antiviral evading Covid variants are arriving (probably already here like XBB from Singapore - could be spreading in Perth right now since we have many flights to and from Singapore every week here).

Australia wouldn't be able to see the pandemic finish line even with the largest optical telescope on earth at the moment.
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« Last Edit: Oct 22nd, 2022 at 8:40pm by Carl D »  

** Repeat Covid infections exercise our immune system in the same way that repeat concussions exercise our brain **
 
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Carl D
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Re: Mask mandates didn't do anything
Reply #256 - Oct 22nd, 2022 at 9:07pm
 
I sometimes wonder if some of these journalists have guilty consciences when they write articles for their papers and use terms like "post Covid", "post pandemic" and "it's now official, the pandemic is over"?

Are they being ordered by their bosses to write these untruths?

Or do they honestly believe what they're writing is the truth?

I'd really like to know but I'm pretty sure I'll never find out.
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** Repeat Covid infections exercise our immune system in the same way that repeat concussions exercise our brain **
 
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Dnarever
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Re: Mask mandates didn't do anything
Reply #257 - Oct 22nd, 2022 at 9:22pm
 
Carl D wrote on Oct 22nd, 2022 at 9:07pm:
I sometimes wonder if some of these journalists have guilty consciences when they write articles for their papers and use terms like "post Covid", "post pandemic" and "it's now official, the pandemic is over"?

Are they being ordered by their bosses to write these untruths?

Or do they honestly believe what they're writing is the truth?

I'd really like to know but I'm pretty sure I'll never find out.


Some seem to believe that the pandemic phase has ended, we still have the virus but with the inoculation levels and the settling of the virus it is now considered a normally ongoing situation. I suspect it is more hopeful than anything else.

It is the only way to justify moving to the current position of doing nothing.
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Dnarever
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Re: Mask mandates didn't do anything
Reply #258 - Oct 22nd, 2022 at 9:31pm
 
ShellShilo wrote on Oct 21st, 2022 at 4:22pm:
Dnarever wrote on Oct 17th, 2022 at 11:31am:
Quote:
Mask mandates didn't do anything


Considering that all the data shows that the deaths may have been 10 times greater without them I suspect that you are wrong.

In all the countries that took no action the amount of people who died was much greater.

Even in Australia the amount of covid deaths has steeply increased from the day that the mandate for masks was removed.

back before the Mandate was removed the Australian average per week death rate was zero with some weeks of one.

The Current death rate on the 14th was 29 deaths that day with a weekly average of 15.

The difference is Masks and distancing.

Australia was going along with three or four thousand deaths before we opened up again, we are now at 15,000 deaths.

That is a 400% increase in covid deaths since we re opened, since we removed the mask mandate.

Nobody seems to care.

It seems strange that if mask mandates did nothing then why did the deaths start to increase the day that the mandate was removed?


As of 25th Jan. 2020-20th Oct.2022(999 days), there have been 10.3M cases and 15.5K Australians dying from/with Covid-19. If we assume that everyone died ONLY because of the virus(no other comorbidities), that would still be a mortality rate of 0.15%. Or, a 99.85% survival rate.

This also means that on average, 15.5 people have died from/with Covid-19 in Australia, each day since the beginning of this pandemic. This represents only 0.00006% of the Australian population each day. By the end of March(2020) there were only 34 deaths(5,687 cases). Before vaccines were available(Feb22, 2021), there were 999 deaths(28,930 cases). So what do these stats tell me?

Between Jan 2020 and the end of March(before lockdowns and mandates), there were fewer cases and deaths. Between the end of March until Feb 2021(before vaccines, but with mandates), there was 29 times more people dying, and 5 times more cases. After vaccines were introduced(and up to today), there was 15.5 times more people dying, and 356 times more cases. Clearly man is not stopping the spread of this virus.

Conclusion? We were better off sticking to educating the public, ,and simply treating the disease. Instead of trying to destroy our own country. This virus is less lethal than the Measles. It has a survival rate of over 98%. And a mortality rate that has never been above 0.1%. The only thing that matters is the condition of our immune system. There is nothing that man can do, that will stop anyone from being infected by any virus. NO vaccine can prevent any virus from entering your body. 

Unless masks are tailor-made to fit your face perfectly(or taped), it can't seal your eyes and nose. You can breathe through the sides of the mask. Plus the virus can also enter your eyes. People also take off their masks to eat and drink. Viral particles can linger in the air for up to an hour, and on surfaces for even longer.





Hi Shell

To me the flaw in your position is that the numbers you rely on as showing how low the risk is are all based on the results of lock downs masks and distancing. Without this the good numbers would very likely not be so good at all.

Quote:
So what do these stats tell me?


Lock downs distancing and masks saved a pile of lives - it worked.



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ShellShilo
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Re: Mask mandates didn't do anything
Reply #259 - Oct 22nd, 2022 at 9:41pm
 
I think your articles on what we did in response to this flu crisis, DOES defy belief. These insane steps to stop a microorganism smaller than the visible spectrum of light. An organism that is less lethal than the measles! An organism with an over 98% survival rate.

We have done more damage to our country, our people, our intelligence, and to our way of life, than any flu virus ever could. Where was this level of health concerns for obesity, smoking, alcohol, and drug abuse? How many lives could we have easily saved? We also seem to forget, that this virus can be treated, regardless of whether you are vaccinated or not.

I'm the type of person that must learn everything there is to know about something, before I stick it into my body. And, why is it a better option than my natural immune system? Don't vaccines use the same immune system?

I know that mRNA vaccines forces normal muscle cells to start producing viral antigens(spike proteins). This is NOT a function of normal muscle cells. Assuming that you don't inject the vaccine directly into the bloodstream(other ACE receptor sites). This is all done to trick our immune system by mimicking a nonexistent viral attack. All to save the 1-3 days waiting-time for our adaptive immune system to kick in.

For most healthy people this is not necessary. Especially, considering the type of narrow-spectrum, high affinity, and highly specific antibodies that our immune system would produce.

Regarding masks. If wearing masks make people feel secure, protected, and stress-free, then they should wear them. But people should NOT be forced/coerced to wear them. 

Every time I hear that a mask is 95% effective against the coronavirus, I ask how many viruses are in that 5% that it is NOT effective against? Considering that there are millions of viral particles per cc. This could mean that there may be hundreds of thousands of viruses left to infect us. It only takes around a hundred coronaviruses to infect you. A people with Covid-19 already has between 10^9-10^11 virions in their bodies.

It is also interesting(though not surprising) that the most infected work industry, is the healthcare industry.  Surely, they would have the best protection?

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Re: Mask mandates didn't do anything
Reply #260 - Oct 22nd, 2022 at 9:58pm
 
ShellShilo wrote on Oct 22nd, 2022 at 9:41pm:
I think your articles on what we did in response to this flu crisis, DOES defy belief. These insane steps to stop a microorganism smaller than the visible spectrum of light. An organism that is less lethal than the measles! An organism with an over 98% survival rate.

We have done more damage to our country, our people, our intelligence, and to our way of life, than any flu virus ever could. Where was this level of health concerns for obesity, smoking, alcohol, and drug abuse? How many lives could we have easily saved? We also seem to forget, that this virus can be treated, regardless of whether you are vaccinated or not.

I'm the type of person that must learn everything there is to know about something, before I stick it into my body. And, why is it a better option than my natural immune system? Don't vaccines use the same immune system?

I know that mRNA vaccines forces normal muscle cells to start producing viral antigens(spike proteins). This is NOT a function of normal muscle cells. Assuming that you don't inject the vaccine directly into the bloodstream(other ACE receptor sites). This is all done to trick our immune system by mimicking a nonexistent viral attack. All to save the 1-3 days waiting-time for our adaptive immune system to kick in.

For most healthy people this is not necessary. Especially, considering the type of narrow-spectrum, high affinity, and highly specific antibodies that our immune system would produce.

Regarding masks. If wearing masks make people feel secure, protected, and stress-free, then they should wear them. But people should NOT be forced/coerced to wear them. 

Every time I hear that a mask is 95% effective against the coronavirus, I ask how many viruses are in that 5% that it is NOT effective against? Considering that there are millions of viral particles per cc. This could mean that there may be hundreds of thousands of viruses left to infect us. It only takes around a hundred coronaviruses to infect you. A people with Covid-19 already has between 10^9-10^11 virions in their bodies.

It is also interesting(though not surprising) that the most infected work industry, is the healthcare industry.  Surely, they would have the best protection?



The initial fatality rate of covid was 30%.


regards how mRNA works -
Quote:
.......  This is done through the use of mRNA, which is a type of nucleic acid that tells your body how to make proteins. Your own cells use mRNA every day to make the proteins that are vital for your body to function properly.         ...........


https://www.healthline.com/health/how-does-mrna-vaccine-work#about-m-rna-vaccine...

you give no reference  as to the infection rate of     healthcarer.
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ShellShilo
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Re: Mask mandates didn't do anything
Reply #261 - Oct 23rd, 2022 at 12:44am
 
Sprintcyclist wrote on Oct 22nd, 2022 at 9:58pm:
ShellShilo wrote on Oct 22nd, 2022 at 9:41pm:
I think your articles on what we did in response to this flu crisis, DOES defy belief. These insane steps to stop a microorganism smaller than the visible spectrum of light. An organism that is less lethal than the measles! An organism with an over 98% survival rate.

We have done more damage to our country, our people, our intelligence, and to our way of life, than any flu virus ever could. Where was this level of health concerns for obesity, smoking, alcohol, and drug abuse? How many lives could we have easily saved? We also seem to forget, that this virus can be treated, regardless of whether you are vaccinated or not.

I'm the type of person that must learn everything there is to know about something, before I stick it into my body. And, why is it a better option than my natural immune system? Don't vaccines use the same immune system?

I know that mRNA vaccines forces normal muscle cells to start producing viral antigens(spike proteins). This is NOT a function of normal muscle cells. Assuming that you don't inject the vaccine directly into the bloodstream(other ACE receptor sites). This is all done to trick our immune system by mimicking a nonexistent viral attack. All to save the 1-3 days waiting-time for our adaptive immune system to kick in.

For most healthy people this is not necessary. Especially, considering the type of narrow-spectrum, high affinity, and highly specific antibodies that our immune system would produce.

Regarding masks. If wearing masks make people feel secure, protected, and stress-free, then they should wear them. But people should NOT be forced/coerced to wear them. 

Every time I hear that a mask is 95% effective against the coronavirus, I ask how many viruses are in that 5% that it is NOT effective against? Considering that there are millions of viral particles per cc. This could mean that there may be hundreds of thousands of viruses left to infect us. It only takes around a hundred coronaviruses to infect you. A people with Covid-19 already has between 10^9-10^11 virions in their bodies.

It is also interesting(though not surprising) that the most infected work industry, is the healthcare industry.  Surely, they would have the best protection?



The initial fatality rate of covid was 30%.


regards how mRNA works -
Quote:
.......  This is done through the use of mRNA, which is a type of nucleic acid that tells your body how to make proteins. Your own cells use mRNA every day to make the proteins that are vital for your body to function properly.         ...........


you give no reference  as to the infection rate of     healthcarer.


I'm afraid that your link is just an add for Pfizer and Moderna vaccines. Turning more Australians into "vaccine-junkies". And, since I haven't reached 100 posts, I can't provide any reference sites yet. But healthcare workers are almost 3 times more likely to become infected, than workers from any other industries. But I think that intuitively this would make sense. Since this is the most likely industry that has had the most daily exposure to the virus.

Regarding this mRNA. The mRNA molecule is normally made in the NUCLEUS of the cell. It copies its genetic information for protein synthesis from the DNA molecule in the nucleus. There is no code for the formation of viral spike protein on the DNA molecule. This transcription occurs in the nucleus of the cell.

The mRNA then leaves the nucleus and finds a "ribosome" to attach itself to. This structure is composed of rRNA(ribosomal RNA) and protein molecules. The mRNA translates its coding to make proteins in the Ribosome(translation). And, a protein chain of amino acids is formed, NORMALLY.

But the mRNA used in this vaccine does NOT come from the nucleus of any natural cell. It is synthesized in a lab, using an unknown DNA template(monoclonal human cell DNA), lipid nanoparticles, and mutated amino acids(to stabilize the spike proteins). It also uses other chemicals to prevent the mRNA from being attacked by our own immune system. The genetic components of the virus's spike protein is TRANSCRIBED in a lab.

This tailormade artificial lab-created mRNA is then injected into the cytoplasm of the muscle cell(not into the nucleus). It will also attach itself to a ribosome. But the genetic instructions it carries never came from the DNA of the muscle cell. Normal transcription never occurred. Now a normal muscle cell can produce viral spike proteins. This is anything but normal.

This should be alarming to any ethically-minded person. If we can avoid the coding inside of our normal DNA(master codes), we can get the cells to produce any type of proteins we want. Remember, poisons are also made up of proteins.

What also scares me, is how is our coding error protecting, enzymatic protection system being suppressed? Our cells are not meant to make viral spike proteins. Why is this biological event even occurring inside our body? 

I just read that Pfizer is now charging $110-$130 for each dose of its boosters. I wonder what the new spin will be to influence urgency and demand?

Initial fatality rates were 30%?? I very seriously doubt that. If that were anywhere near the truth, there would be around 8 million Australian deaths by now.
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« Last Edit: Oct 23rd, 2022 at 11:58am by ShellShilo »  
 
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ShellShilo
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Re: Mask mandates didn't do anything
Reply #262 - Oct 23rd, 2022 at 1:36am
 
Dnarever wrote on Oct 22nd, 2022 at 9:31pm:
ShellShilo wrote on Oct 21st, 2022 at 4:22pm:
Dnarever wrote on Oct 17th, 2022 at 11:31am:
Quote:
Mask mandates didn't do anything


Considering that all the data shows that the deaths may have been 10 times greater without them I suspect that you are wrong.

In all the countries that took no action the amount of people who died was much greater.

Even in Australia the amount of covid deaths has steeply increased from the day that the mandate for masks was removed.

back before the Mandate was removed the Australian average per week death rate was zero with some weeks of one.

The Current death rate on the 14th was 29 deaths that day with a weekly average of 15.

The difference is Masks and distancing.

Australia was going along with three or four thousand deaths before we opened up again, we are now at 15,000 deaths.

That is a 400% increase in covid deaths since we re opened, since we removed the mask mandate.

Nobody seems to care.

It seems strange that if mask mandates did nothing then why did the deaths start to increase the day that the mandate was removed?


As of 25th Jan. 2020-20th Oct.2022(999 days), there have been 10.3M cases and 15.5K Australians dying from/with Covid-19. If we assume that everyone died ONLY because of the virus(no other comorbidities), that would still be a mortality rate of 0.15%. Or, a 99.85% survival rate.

This also means that on average, 15.5 people have died from/with Covid-19 in Australia, each day since the beginning of this pandemic. This represents only 0.00006% of the Australian population each day. By the end of March(2020) there were only 34 deaths(5,687 cases). Before vaccines were available(Feb22, 2021), there were 999 deaths(28,930 cases). So what do these stats tell me?

Between Jan 2020 and the end of March(before lockdowns and mandates), there were fewer cases and deaths. Between the end of March until Feb 2021(before vaccines, but with mandates), there was 29 times more people dying, and 5 times more cases. After vaccines were introduced(and up to today), there was 15.5 times more people dying, and 356 times more cases. Clearly man is not stopping the spread of this virus.

Conclusion? We were better off sticking to educating the public, ,and simply treating the disease. Instead of trying to destroy our own country. This virus is less lethal than the Measles. It has a survival rate of over 98%. And a mortality rate that has never been above 0.1%. The only thing that matters is the condition of our immune system. There is nothing that man can do, that will stop anyone from being infected by any virus. NO vaccine can prevent any virus from entering your body. 

Unless masks are tailor-made to fit your face perfectly(or taped), it can't seal your eyes and nose. You can breathe through the sides of the mask. Plus the virus can also enter your eyes. People also take off their masks to eat and drink. Viral particles can linger in the air for up to an hour, and on surfaces for even longer.





Hi Shell

To me the flaw in your position is that the numbers you rely on as showing how low the risk is are all based on the results of lock downs masks and distancing. Without this the good numbers would very likely not be so good at all.

Quote:
So what do these stats tell me?


Lock downs distancing and masks saved a pile of lives - it worked.





Hi Dnarever. Not sure what you mean here. Numbers are neither good or bad. They are either true or false. And, what about my points? Are there NOT at least 98% of victims recovering? Is this virus(0.1-1%) less lethal than the measles(1-3%), or Hepatitis A(1.8%)?

My point was that we are making so many assumptions, but not showing any direct causal links. I could say that most people who die from covid-19, are people with facial hair. And, I would be absolutely correct based on the stats. But there is no direct causal link to support my claim. This is just an adjunct conclusions, without showing any causal links.

People are still dying, who have been vaccinated with more than 3 doses. Clearly, there are other factors to consider(age, comorbidities, health of immune system, etc.). It is just not that simple.

You can't simply claim that if there are more deaths today, than there were yesterday, that it must be because of the absence of lockdowns and other medical protocols. Without first excluding all of the other possible variables/causes.

At the end of the day, people are still going to dies from catching the flu, regardless of whatever protocols are in place. With over 2 years of these protocols in place, and still a 300 times more cases. Clearly they are not working. And, the blame game is also unsupported. Lets just let our natural immune system do its job.

And, for those in the high risk group, get vaccinated with LIVE or ATTENUATED real viruses.

Also, I've noticed that you show little interests in the demographics of those dying from this virus, or their list of comorbidities. You show no interest in the fact that this virus is medically treatable. Just like any other virus. Why destroy our own country and people? Just treat the disease. 

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« Last Edit: Oct 23rd, 2022 at 12:15pm by ShellShilo »  
 
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ShellShilo
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Re: Mask mandates didn't do anything
Reply #263 - Oct 23rd, 2022 at 1:50pm
 
Carl D wrote on Oct 22nd, 2022 at 8:25pm:
Sprintcyclist wrote on Oct 22nd, 2022 at 7:32pm:
I think due to the mass vaccinations, most people having had covid  and declining death rates, the overall risk has greatly abated.
I do not think it has been declared 'over'.

Quote:
.........  Thu 15 Sep 2022 05.00 AEST
The end of the Covid-19 pandemic is “in sight”, the World Health Organization has declared, after revealing that weekly deaths from the virus around the world were at the lowest level since March 2020.        .........




Ah, yes. "The end of the pandemic is in sight".

Which was immediately 'pounced upon' by the media as meaning "the pandemic is over" and our governments did nothing to correct this misinformation from the media. No surprise there.

And, they also conveniently ignored this part:

Quote:
The director general of the international health body, Dr Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus, told a press conference: “Last week, the number of weekly reported deaths from Covid-19 was the lowest since March 2020.

“We have never been in a better position to end the pandemic – we are not there yet, but the end is in sight.

“A marathon runner does not stop when the finish line comes into view, she runs harder, with all the energy she has left. So must we.

“We can see the finish line, we’re in a winning position. But now is the worst time to stop running. Now is the time to run harder and make sure we cross the line and reap the rewards of all our hard work.”

Tedros added: “If we don’t take this opportunity now, we run the risk of more variants, more deaths, more disruption and more uncertainty. So let’s seize this opportunity.”


Needless to say - Australia (and most western countries) are not doing that and they've "stopped running". In fact, here in Australia they've removed all remaining Covid protections such as masks and isolation for infected people.

And now, more newer vaccine and antiviral evading Covid variants are arriving (probably already here like XBB from Singapore - could be spreading in Perth right now since we have many flights to and from Singapore every week here).

Australia wouldn't be able to see the pandemic finish line even with the largest optical telescope on earth at the moment.


No one has removed any of these protection protocols, that has been protecting us all from a viral apocalypse. But they have removed the thousand dollar fines and arrests, the closing down of businesses, the suspension of our personal freedoms of movement and speech, and our freedom of choice for non-compliance.

You are still free to wear masks, take as many boosters as you like, keep away from people, and stay locked-up in your home if you choose to. How you choose to deal with this virus is your choice, and your business. And for others, also their choice, and their business.

In spite of all the media hype and disinformation, this is NOT MERS, the Bubonic Plague(bacterial), Smallpox, or the Ebola virus. This is a medically treatable flu virus. Clearly, solely being vaccinated will not prevent everyone from being infected, transmitting, or dying from this virus.

Do you even wonder why there have now been 15 variants of the SARS-CoV-2 virus? Can you think of any childhood virus with so many mutated variances? So why this virus? Could it be that this type of vaccine is ineffective? Could it be the specificity of the immune-acquired antibodies is a bit too specific?

Maybe we should stop targeting only the spike proteins. And, let our naturally-produced antibodies target ALL of the virus(instead of only the spike protein). In this way, it doesn't matter what the new variant form looks like. Our natural antibodies will attack and erase.

How do we stop any virus? They are microorganisms that are neither dead nor alive. There are more viruses on earth, than there are stars and planets in the universe(10^31 power). Even 10% of the human genome(DNA) contain viral genes. Viruses have been on earth for over 3.5 billion years before man. And, they will be here long after we're gone. So good luck with your race analogy. In reality, there is no finish line. 

Don't listen to the media. They are the fear-mongers who created this climate of viral-phobia. Now they're  just back-peddling, to save face.

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Re: Mask mandates didn't do anything
Reply #264 - Oct 23rd, 2022 at 2:07pm
 
ShellShilo wrote on Oct 23rd, 2022 at 1:36am:
Dnarever wrote on Oct 22nd, 2022 at 9:31pm:
ShellShilo wrote on Oct 21st, 2022 at 4:22pm:
Quote:
Mask mandates didn't do anything





As of 25th Jan. 2020-20th Oct.2022(999 days), there have been 10.3M cases and 15.5K Australians dying from/with Covid-19. If we assume that everyone died ONLY because of the virus(no other comorbidities), that would still be a mortality rate of 0.15%. Or, a 99.85% survival rate.

This also means that on average, 15.5 people have died from/with Covid-19 in Australia, each day since the beginning of this pandemic. This represents only 0.00006% of the Australian population each day. By the end of March(2020) there were only 34 deaths(5,687 cases). Before vaccines were available(Feb22, 2021), there were 999 deaths(28,930 cases). So what do these stats tell me?

Between Jan 2020 and the end of March(before lockdowns and mandates), there were fewer cases and deaths. Between the end of March until Feb 2021(before vaccines, but with mandates), there was 29 times more people dying, and 5 times more cases. After vaccines were introduced(and up to today), there was 15.5 times more people dying, and 356 times more cases. Clearly man is not stopping the spread of this virus.

Conclusion? We were better off sticking to educating the public, ,and simply treating the disease. Instead of trying to destroy our own country. This virus is less lethal than the Measles. It has a survival rate of over 98%. And a mortality rate that has never been above 0.1%. The only thing that matters is the condition of our immune system. There is nothing that man can do, that will stop anyone from being infected by any virus. NO vaccine can prevent any virus from entering your body. 







Hi Shell

To me the flaw in your position is that the numbers you rely on as showing how low the risk is are all based on the results of lock downs masks and distancing. Without this the good numbers would very likely not be so good at all.

Quote:
So what do these stats tell me?


Lock downs distancing and masks saved a pile of lives - it worked.





Hi Dnarever. Not sure what you mean here. Numbers are neither good or bad. They are either true or false. And, what about my points? Are there NOT at least 98% of victims recovering? Is this virus(0.1-1%) less lethal than the measles(1-3%), or Hepatitis A(1.8%)?

My point was that we are making so many assumptions, but not showing any direct causal links. I could say that most people who die from covid-19, are people with facial hair. And, I would be absolutely correct based on the stats. But there is no direct causal link to support my claim. This is just an adjunct conclusions, without showing any causal links.

People are still dying, who have been vaccinated with more than 3 doses. Clearly, there are other factors to consider(age, comorbidities, health of immune system, etc.). It is just not that simple.

You can't simply claim that if there are more deaths today, than there were yesterday, that it must be because of the absence of lockdowns and other medical protocols. Without first excluding all of the other possible variables/causes.

At the end of the day, people are still going to dies from catching the flu, regardless of whatever protocols are in place. With over 2 years of these protocols in place, and still a 300 times more cases. Clearly they are not working. And, the blame game is also unsupported. Lets just let our natural immune system do its job.

And, for those in the high risk group, get vaccinated with LIVE or ATTENUATED real viruses.

Also, I've noticed that you show little interests in the demographics of those dying from this virus, or their list of comorbidities. You show no interest in the fact that this virus is medically treatable. Just like any other virus. Why destroy our own country and people? Just treat the disease. 



Quote:
Numbers are neither good or bad. They are either true or false. And, what about my points? Are there NOT at least 98%


If there was no distancing lock downs or masks from the beginning the numbers would look very different, many more would have been infected in the period when the virus was much more deadly. A lot of people would have died, I consider the numbers had this eventuality took place to have been worse. The numbers that you use to justify your case are dependant on distancing masks and lockdowns working to give your the outcome.

Look at how the opening played out in New York or in the original province in China, It was Lock downs distancing and masks that meant that Australia had a very different outcome.

Then look at how it played out in New York and such eastern US transport hub states, They all moved to lock downs distancing and masks which meant that even though they got off to a dreadful start they all finished in front of the republican states that closed down late, improperly  and then re opened early.
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Re: Mask mandates didn't do anything
Reply #265 - Oct 23rd, 2022 at 2:17pm
 
ShellShilo wrote on Oct 23rd, 2022 at 1:36am:
Dnarever wrote on Oct 22nd, 2022 at 9:31pm:
ShellShilo wrote on Oct 21st, 2022 at 4:22pm:
As of 25th Jan. 2020-20th Oct.2022(999 days), there have been 10.3M cases and 15.5K Australians dying from/with Covid-19. If we assume that everyone died  a mortality rate of 0.15%. Or, a 99.85% survival rate.

This also means that on average, 15.5 people have died from/with Covid-19 in Australia, each day since the beginning of this pandemic. This represents only 0.00006% of the Australian population each day. By the end of March(2020) there were only 34 deaths(5,687 cases). Before vaccines were available(Feb22, 2021), there were 999 deaths(28,930 cases). So what do these stats tell me?

Between Jan 2020 and the end of March(before lockdowns and mandates), there were fewer cases and deaths. Between the end of March until Feb 2021(before vaccines, but with mandates), there was 29 times more people dying, and 5 times more cases. After vaccines were introduced(and up to today), there was 15.5 times more people dying, and 356 times more cases. Clearly man is not stopping the spread of this virus.

Conclusion? We were better off sticking to educating the public, ,and simply treating the disease. Instead of trying to destroy our own country. This virus is less lethal than the Measles. It has a survival rate of over 98%. And a mortality rate that has never been above 0.1%. The only thing that matters is the condition of our immune system. There is nothing that man can do, that will stop anyone from being infected by any virus. NO vaccine can prevent any virus from entering your body. 

Unless masks are tailor-made to fit your face perfectly(or taped), it can't seal your eyes and nose. You can breathe through the sides of the mask. Plus the virus can also enter your eyes. People also take off their masks to eat and drink. Viral particles can linger in the air for up to an hour, and on surfaces for even longer.





Hi Shell

To me the flaw in your position is that the numbers you rely on as showing how low the risk is are all based on the results of lock downs masks and distancing. Without this the good numbers would very likely not be so good at all.

Quote:
So what do these stats tell me?


Lock downs distancing and masks saved a pile of lives - it worked.





Hi Dnarever. Not sure what you mean here. Numbers are neither good or bad. They are either true or false. And, what about my points? Are there NOT at least 98% of victims recovering? Is this virus(0.1-1%) less lethal than the measles(1-3%), or Hepatitis A(1.8%)?

My point was that we are making so many assumptions, but not showing any direct causal links. I could say that most people who die from covid-19, are people with facial hair. And, I would be absolutely correct based on the stats. But there is no direct causal link to support my claim. This is just an adjunct conclusions, without showing any causal links.

People are still dying, who have been vaccinated with more than 3 doses. Clearly, there are other factors to consider(age, comorbidities, health of immune system, etc.). It is just not that simple.

You can't simply claim that if there are more deaths today, than there were yesterday, that it must be because of the absence of lockdowns and other medical protocols. Without first excluding all of the other possible variables/causes.

At the end of the day, people are still going to dies from catching the flu, regardless of whatever protocols are in place. With over 2 years of these protocols in place, and still a 300 times more cases. Clearly they are not working. And, the blame game is also unsupported. Lets just let our natural immune system do its job.

And, for those in the high risk group, get vaccinated with LIVE or ATTENUATED real viruses.

Also, I've noticed that you show little interests in the demographics of those dying from this virus, or their list of comorbidities. You show no interest in the fact that this virus is medically treatable. Just like any other virus. Why destroy our own country and people? Just treat the disease. 



Quote:
You can't simply claim that if there are more deaths today, than there were yesterday, that it must be because of the absence of lockdowns and other medical protocols.


As soon as the restrictions were all lifted the death rates started to climb. If this were only true of Australia it would be one thing but the reality is that the outcome of lifting all restrictions in the USA produced the same result. It does look to be conclusive as well as to be a logical outcome. To simplify it looks like that if you expose more people to a deadly virus you can expect more people to die of that virus.

Removing the requirement for people to isolate distance and wear a mask will naturally expose more people to the virus. It is perfectly logical that when you expose more people to the risk more people will be susceptible to that risk.

When Logically what you would expect to happen, happens it should not be a surprise to anyone and it is very difficult to claim that the causation is in the other or unknown category - it simply is not. Expose more people to a deadly virus and more people will die simple as that. 
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Re: Mask mandates didn't do anything
Reply #266 - Oct 23rd, 2022 at 6:49pm
 
Dnarever wrote on Oct 23rd, 2022 at 2:17pm:
As soon as the restrictions were all lifted the death rates started to climb. If this were only true of Australia it would be one thing but the reality is that the outcome of lifting all restrictions in the USA produced the same result. It does look to be conclusive as well as to be a logical outcome. To simplify it looks like that if you expose more people to a deadly virus you can expect more people to die of that virus.

Removing the requirement for people to isolate distance and wear a mask will naturally expose more people to the virus. It is perfectly logical that when you expose more people to the risk more people will be susceptible to that risk.

When Logically what you would expect to happen, happens it should not be a surprise to anyone and it is very difficult to claim that the causation is in the other or unknown category - it simply is not. Expose more people to a deadly virus and more people will die simple as that. 


Hi. You are certainly entitled to your own opinion. But NOT your own logic. Although on the simplest of levels, I agree that the more people who are infected, will likely lead to more people dying from the virusie(statistically). But this is NOT a direct causal link is it? This is a false dichotomy(fallacy). No mask, more people die. Wear mask, less people die. Also, no protocols, more people die. More protocols, less people die. All false dichotomies.

My previous posts have shown you the numbers. Whether there are lockdown protocols in place or not, people were still becoming infected, transmitting, and dying from this virus. Even at over 90% of the population vaccinated, you were still seeing deaths from this disease. You were seeing this happening everyday, when lockdowns were in place. So how does your logic support the return of lockdown protocols? 

There is absolutely no way to manage/police distancing. No way to increase the efficacy of masks to 99.999%. Vaccines are NOT designed to prevent anyone becoming infected, transmitting, or even dying from the virus. Although, the mortality and survival rates HAVE been constant throughout the years.

We have seen what happens to this virus when we throw everything at it. NOTHING! And, the effects this has had on our country, we might never recover from. The media has simply run out of excuses. First complying with protocols will protect you. Then wearing masks and being vaccinated will protect you. Then becoming a 95% multi-vaccinated society will protect you from this virus. All lies. The only truth they have said, is that we must learn to live with this flu virus.

The causality variables I've claimed, do not fall into the unknown category. I even listed a few of them(demographics, co-morbidities, health of the immune system, climate/weather, population density, geographics, etc.). These variable also play a role in the statistical outcome. It would be intellectually dishonest to simply ignore/dismiss them all.

Now, when you can logically exclude all the other possible causes(even not having facial hair), then there is no false dichotomy.

Also, it is irrelevant what the stats are in the US(or any other country). The variables affecting its outcomes will be different than the variables here in Australia(density, population, demographics, climate, etc.). The bottom line here is, that people will get sick from this virus. Most will recover, and a small percentage will die from complications. All the rest is media-manufactured hype and disinformation. Do you know how many people recover everyday? How about, what the Covid-19 victims, actually die of? Do you know what the coded categories mean, that are listed on the death certificates? Or, do you never look past the numbers?

In Australia, 80 people die each day from heart disease. 137 people die each day from cancer. 188 die each day from obesity-related illnesses. 54 people die each day from smoking related illnesses. And, the alcohol-induced deaths are the highest level in the last 10 years. Why aren't  these stats being paraded over the media each day?

So, where you can only see cause and effect, I see only what I would expect to see. The effects of media -induced hysterics. A manufactured hype, that has turned a flu virus, less lethal than the measles, into the Ebola plague.

A pandemic only means a disease that pans the globe. It has nothing to do with the severity of the disease. In Australia, it is just an epidemic.



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Re: Mask mandates didn't do anything
Reply #267 - Oct 23rd, 2022 at 7:31pm
 
ShellShilo wrote on Oct 23rd, 2022 at 6:49pm:
Hi. You are certainly entitled to your own opinion. But NOT your own logic. Although on the simplest of levels, I agree that the more people who are infected, will likely lead to more people dying from the virusie(statistically). But this is NOT a direct causal link is it? This is a false dichotomy(fallacy). No mask, more people die. Wear mask, less people die. Also, no protocols, more people die. More protocols, less people die. All false dichotomies.

My previous posts have shown you the numbers. Whether there are lockdown protocols in place or not, people were still becoming infected, transmitting, and dying from this virus. Even at over 90% of the population vaccinated, you were still seeing deaths from this disease. You were seeing this happening everyday, when lockdowns were in place. So how does your logic support the return of lockdown protocols? 

There is absolutely no way to manage/police distancing. No way to increase the efficacy of masks to 99.999%. Vaccines are NOT designed to prevent anyone becoming infected, transmitting, or even dying from the virus. Although, the mortality and survival rates HAVE been constant throughout the years.

We have seen what happens to this virus when we throw everything at it. NOTHING! And, the effects this has had on our country, we might never recover from. The media has simply run out of excuses. First complying with protocols will protect you. Then wearing masks and being vaccinated will protect you. Then becoming a 95% multi-vaccinated society will protect you from this virus. All lies. The only truth they have said, is that we must learn to live with this flu virus.

The causality variables I've claimed, do not fall into the unknown category. I even listed a few of them(demographics, co-morbidities, health of the immune system, climate/weather, population density, geographics, etc.). These variable also play a role in the statistical outcome. It would be intellectually dishonest to simply ignore/dismiss them all.

Now, when you can logically exclude all the other possible causes(even not having facial hair), then there is no false dichotomy.

Also, it is irrelevant what the stats are in the US(or any other country). The variables affecting its outcomes will be different than the variables here in Australia(density, population, demographics, climate, etc.). The bottom line here is, that people will get sick from this virus. Most will recover, and a small percentage will die from complications. All the rest is media-manufactured hype and disinformation. Do you know how many people recover everyday? How about, what the Covid-19 victims, actually die of? Do you know what the coded categories mean, that are listed on the death certificates? Or, do you never look past the numbers?

In Australia, 80 people die each day from heart disease. 137 people die each day from cancer. 188 die each day from obesity-related illnesses. 54 people die each day from smoking related illnesses. And, the alcohol-induced deaths are the highest level in the last 10 years. Why aren't  these stats being paraded over the media each day?

So, where you can only see cause and effect, I see only what I would expect to see. The effects of media -induced hysterics. A manufactured hype, that has turned a flu virus, less lethal than the measles, into the Ebola plague.

A pandemic only means a disease that pans the globe. It has nothing to do with the severity of the disease. In Australia, it is just an epidemic.





Quote:
But this is NOT a direct causal link is it? This is a false dichotomy(fallacy). No mask, more people die. Wear mask, less people die.


The protections of Mask Distance and isolation worked. It is not a false dichotomy. Had that been the case deaths would not increase when this process is removed.

Quote:
Whether there are lockdown protocols in place or not, people were still becoming infected, transmitting, and dying from this virus.


But at very significantly lower rates in places that were locked down distancing and wearing masks.

Quote:
Also, it is irrelevant what the stats are in the US(or any other country). The variables affecting its outcomes will be different than the variables here in Australia


It is not irrelevant when you see that when Masks distancing and isolation is removed the death rates increase in the same way as they do in Australia and everywhere else.

Quote:
So how does your logic support the return of lockdown protocols? 


Nobody is supporting the return of lockdown unless there are cases than need it. You may be aware that in the US there have been areas go into lockdown again.

Quote:
that has turned a flu virus


It is much more serious than a flu Virus.

Quote:
co-morbidities, health of the immune system


All these things are valid concerns but they are all impacted by Masks, distancing, isolation and vaccination. Reducing the number of carriers to expose these people helps a lot. If vulnerable people don't catch the virus they also don't die.

Masks, distancing, isolation and vaccination help to protect the vulnerable.
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Re: Mask mandates didn't do anything
Reply #268 - Oct 23rd, 2022 at 8:48pm
 
Dnarever wrote on Oct 23rd, 2022 at 2:07pm:
ShellShilo wrote on Oct 23rd, 2022 at 1:36am:
Dnarever wrote on Oct 22nd, 2022 at 9:31pm:
ShellShilo wrote on Oct 21st, 2022 at 4:22pm:
Quote:
Mask mandates didn't do anything























Quote:
Numbers are neither good or bad. They are either true or false. And, what about my points? Are there NOT at least 98%


If there was no distancing lock downs or masks from the beginning the numbers would look very different, many more would have been infected in the period when the virus was much more deadly. A lot of people would have died, I consider the numbers had this eventuality took place to have been worse. The numbers that you use to justify your case are dependant on distancing masks and lockdowns working to give your the outcome.

Look at how the opening played out in New York or in the original province in China, It was Lock downs distancing and masks that meant that Australia had a very different outcome.

Then look at how it played out in New York and such eastern US transport hub states, They all moved to lock downs distancing and masks which meant that even though they got off to a dreadful start they all finished in front of the republican states that closed down late, improperly  and then re opened early.



I don't think we can ever know for certain, what would've happened if there were no lockdown protocols from the beginning. My best guess would be, based on the last 70 years of flu/cold viruses, NOT MUCH. A lot of people would get sick and stay home with flu-like symptoms. Most people would go to their pharmacy to manage their symptoms. Some people would need to go to hospitals for more specialized treatment. Some people would need more intensive care. And sadly, some people in the high risk groups would die. 

This is what has happened for 70 years, when there were no lockdown protocols in place. And gee wiz golly gee, this is exactly what we're seeing today. But since Australia jump on the world-attention-seeking bandwagon of who can screw the people the most, our country may take decades to recover. Now they have to get rid of the stockpile of drugs the have. 

I suspect that keeping people indoors(poor ventilation), and out of the sunlight(UVC kills the virus), wasn't a good idea. Coercing, threatening, and forcing people to comply with impossible/immature restrictions was also a no-no. But when you tell people to choose between getting jabbed or losing their job, that was probably the straw that broke the Australian back.   

Forcing people to put something into their body they don't want is the ultimate government overreach.  Australians can put up with a lot. But forcing them to shove a poison into our body is just going too far. My leader is NOT Jim Jones. It was then time to march to protect our basic freedom of choice. Of course the media labeled the marchers as "vaccine-deniers". Because "freedom of choice" marchers would definitely not be good fit.

Finally, I'm not interested in the stats from other countries. They are irrelevant to Australia. Unless you can show a direct causal link(cause, not just outcomes). I also doubt that you would know what the numbers would look like if there were no restriction protocols. You have no idea if the numbers would be higher or lower. Maybe more people would spend more time in the sun. Smiley Maybe there would be no difference in the numbers. 

The numbers I've posited are dependent on distancing and masking, NOT WORKING. If they were working we would see a decline in both the number of cases and deaths. We don't see this do we? In fact we see an escalation in the number of cases. So my case IS supported. Right?
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Re: Mask mandates didn't do anything
Reply #269 - Oct 23rd, 2022 at 10:54pm
 
Dnarever wrote on Oct 23rd, 2022 at 7:31pm:
The protections of Mask Distance and isolation worked. It is not a false dichotomy. Had that been the case deaths would not increase when this process is removed.


I think you are missing the point. Regardless of masking, distancing, lockdowns, or vaccinations, the case numbers and deaths have been increasing since day one. Remember, before there were vaccines, there were only 999 people dying from this virus. What is it now? 

The dichotomy is, that your premise is binary. If it works, it's because of the protection protocols. If it fails, it's because there were no protection protocols. You simply ignore/exclude every other variables. A bit too circular for me.

Is it really your argument, that if we take away all the forced protection protocols, that the numbers would just skyrocket? Or that every man woman and child in Australia, will die from this super virus? What objective evidence supports this assumption?

Dnarever wrote on Oct 23rd, 2022 at 7:31pm:
But at very significantly lower rates in places that were locked down distancing and wearing masks.


Are we looking at the same numbers here? And, I'm sure that the people who thought their dead loved ones would be safe because they followed these protocols, might disagree with you. The issue is NOT the rate in which these people are dying. The issue is why they are dying in the first place.

Dnarever wrote on Oct 23rd, 2022 at 7:31pm:
It is not irrelevant when you see that when Masks distancing and isolation is removed the death rates increase in the same way as they do in Australia and everywhere else.


An increase of 1000 deaths in the US death rate, will not be the same as an increase of a 1,000 deaths in the Australian death rate. So, not the same. There is also the problem of reporting, and verifying causes of deaths. Especially in the elderly.

Dnarever wrote on Oct 23rd, 2022 at 7:31pm:
Nobody is supporting the return of lockdown unless there are cases than need it. You may be aware that in the US there have been areas go into lockdown again.

   
Well what is your argument? Do you think we should abandon lockdown protocols in Australia? Or, just in certain areas of Australia? Do you think the people in those designated hot zones will be happy being branded? Either there are no restrictions, or there is, period.

Dnarever wrote on Oct 23rd, 2022 at 7:31pm:
It is much more serious than a flu Virus.


The two major differences between this flu virus, and a normal flu virus, is that it can withstand the higher core body temperature longer. And, that it prompts a greater immune response. Remember, viruses don't kill their hosts. It is our our immune response that can kill us. But the virus can still be treated with antibiotics. 

Did you know that almost 80% of covid-19 victims have zero to moderate symptoms? So yes, and uncomfortable flu.

Dnarever wrote on Oct 23rd, 2022 at 7:31pm:
All these things are valid concerns but they are all impacted by Masks, distancing, isolation and vaccination. Reducing the number of carriers to expose these people helps a lot. If vulnerable people don't catch the virus they also don't die.

Masks, distancing, isolation and vaccination help to protect the vulnerable.


I agree with this in theory. But not in practice. I believe that the most vulnerable should follow all the medical protocols. But if they are suffering from chronic congested heart disease, diabetes, obesity, and are using steroids, then their immune system may not be able to protect them. And, wearing masks, or being vaccinated, might only exacerbate their comorbidities.



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