Australian Politics Forum - Is The Democratic World Just Giving Up?

thegreatdivide

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Re: Is The Democratic World Just Giving Up?
Reply #15 - May 7^th, 2022 at 11:40pm

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on May 7^th, 2022 at 6:26pm:

Like every fool in history they figure that having all control over everything is better than trading and just getting along... never worked yet and never will.

"Just trading and getting along...." like the US overthrow of Iran's first democratic government, in 1953.

"Mosaddegh was democratically elected into the office of the Prime Minister in 1951. He served until 1953, when his government was overthrown in the 1953 Iranian coup d'état orchestrated by the intelligence agencies of the United Kingdom (MI6) and the United States (CIA), led by Kermit Roosevelt Jr."

Mosaddegh made the 'mistake' of thinking Iranians should benefit from the exploitation of Iranian oil reserves, who'd have thunk it....

Meantime Shell has extracted so much oil from the Nigerian delta the entire population should be rich....

"just trading and getting along", indeed.

Quote:

Notice the refugees from Ukraine are happy to come here - just like everyone else.... ever wonder why that is?

Partly because US global hegemony including episodes like that above have ruined the economies of many countries.

https://ellenbrown.com/2022/05/05/a-monetary-reset-where-the-rich-dont-own-every...

Quote:

All your stable mates can't be party members or plants trying to become a Fifth Column here and buy it all up... most of them want to get away from your style of government.....

There are many styles of government, and as Ellen Brown notes, yours is headed for oblivion.

Quote:

The last little slant-eye or Slav who tried that came a cropper, so don't go dictating terms to us until you're marching down George Street!!

er...'the enemy within', when the debt crisis comes to a head, will bring about your own demise, no help from slant-eyes or Slavs required.

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0ktema

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Re: Is The Democratic World Just Giving Up?
Reply #16 - May 8^th, 2022 at 12:34am

Jake Winker Frogen wrote on May 7^th, 2022 at 3:38pm:

The Democratic West has to believe in its ideals and self again or write a suicide note before far more brutal cultures.

That is the choice.

Ex Deputy Prime Minster John Anderson speaks regularly about this on his YouTube channel
And although I hold a higher level of respect for him than I have for many of his conservative peers, I'd have a much greater level of respect if he would think a bit more holistically and in doing so, also tackle the topics of campaign financing, media ownership and political integrity.

Greater morality and fairness in these areas could help lift confidence in our leadership and strengthen social cohesion. And we will need as much credibility and social cohesion as possible, if we are to effectively combat the nefarious foreign actors and their troll farms from weaponizing the useful idiots, drongos, disaffected and misinformed among us.

The general incitement, fake media and destabilization that is taking place in the spheres of social media are of no small concern and difficult to counter without restricting our own freedoms. We should do all we can to resurrect integrity and to restore fairness and confidence in the fundamentals of our democratic system(s). We need to seriously decrease the undue and often corrupt influence the mighty $'s holds over our systems of government and our government officials.

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« Last Edit: May 8^th, 2022 at 8:57am by 0ktema »

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Grappler Deep State Feller

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Re: Is The Democratic World Just Giving Up?
Reply #17 - May 8^th, 2022 at 1:40am

thegreatdivide wrote on May 7^th, 2022 at 11:40pm:

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on May 7^th, 2022 at 6:26pm:

Like every fool in history they figure that having all control over everything is better than trading and just getting along... never worked yet and never will.

"Just trading and getting along...." like the US overthrow of Iran's first democratic government, in 1953.

"Mosaddegh was democratically elected into the office of the Prime Minister in 1951. He served until 1953, when his government was overthrown in the 1953 Iranian coup d'état orchestrated by the intelligence agencies of the United Kingdom (MI6) and the United States (CIA), led by Kermit Roosevelt Jr."

Mosaddegh made the 'mistake' of thinking Iranians should benefit from the exploitation of Iranian oil reserves, who'd have thunk it....

Meantime Shell has extracted so much oil from the Nigerian delta the entire population should be rich....

"just trading and getting along", indeed.

Quote:

Notice the refugees from Ukraine are happy to come here - just like everyone else.... ever wonder why that is?

Partly because US global hegemony including episodes like that above have ruined the economies of many countries.

https://ellenbrown.com/2022/05/05/a-monetary-reset-where-the-rich-dont-own-every...

Quote:

All your stable mates can't be party members or plants trying to become a Fifth Column here and buy it all up... most of them want to get away from your style of government.....

There are many styles of government, and as Ellen Brown notes, yours is headed for oblivion.

Quote:

The last little slant-eye or Slav who tried that came a cropper, so don't go dictating terms to us until you're marching down George Street!!

er...'the enemy within', when the debt crisis comes to a head, will bring about your own demise, no help from slant-eyes or Slavs required.

We're talking about here and now, sonny - so any intervention in a foreign nation 70 years ago is no justification for intervention by new players today?

You are so funny .....

When the 'debt crisis' comes into play - trade with you will collapse as well and you will be far worse off.

You understand fair trade and negotiation as opposed to using money as a tool for world domination?

I see no good coming from the modern trend to dictators.

Clearly you miss my repeated posts about 'regions' and the lack of any real need or urgency to trade with them on their terms - Nigeria (black person'ere) is quite at liberty to make its own deals for the benefit of its people... same as Australia with its resources, Kazakhstan with its and so forth - tell me now why they don't?

Here's a clue - because they are all governed by inept and self-serving people who cannot see further than the next batch of dollars coming their way, and who are willing to sell out their country and countrymen in return for dollars to them.

How is China any different? How is Russia? How is Kazakhstan? How is Nigeria?

The STYLE of government here, and there - robber baronism clad in the fine raiments of democracy - needs to be changed - but not its FORM, thank you.

Do you know the difference?

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« Last Edit: May 8^th, 2022 at 1:52am by Grappler Deep State Feller »

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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thegreatdivide

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Re: Is The Democratic World Just Giving Up?
Reply #18 - May 8^th, 2022 at 12:35pm

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on May 8^th, 2022 at 1:40am:

We're talking about here and now, sonny - so any intervention in a foreign nation 70 years ago is no justification for intervention by new players today?

You are so funny .....

You say you believe in "trading and just getting along", and yet you reject the two schemes vital for that to occur; after WW2, the first envisioned by 'Doc' Evatt, and the 2nd by JM Keynes.

1. Implementing the institutional machinery for outlawing war as a means of dispute settlement between nations (inc. UNSC without veto as envisioned by Evatt).

2. Implementing the institutional machinery to engender fair trade and prosperous development in all nations (via a 'clearing union' and 'Bankor' envisioned by Keynes).

Both schemes were rejected by the great powers (in no1), and a triumphant US (in no.2) , basically proving that instinct (via the reptilian brain) triumphed over rationality...again, despite the catastrophic lesson of WW2.

Quote:

When the 'debt crisis' comes into play - trade with you will collapse as well and you will be far worse off.

Me? Are you assuming I am Chinese. I'm neither CCP nor living in China; my task is to expose the West's delusional "freedom"/'individual rights' ideology, and its disastrous consequences on the world's collective well-being.

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You understand fair trade and negotiation as opposed to using money as a tool for world domination?

Yes, as outlined above.

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I see no good coming from the modern trend to dictators.

That trend is because of soaring inequality and collapsing debt-ridden economies around the globe.

Quote:

Clearly you miss my repeated posts about 'regions' and the lack of any real need or urgency to trade with them on their terms - Nigeria (black person'ere) is quite at liberty to make its own deals for the benefit of its people... same as Australia with its resources, Kazakhstan with its and so forth - tell me now why they don't?

Nations are not at liberty at all, when they are burdened by debt and unfair trade entrenched by the monetary orthodoxy of the IMF (Instant Misery Fund), and a WTO that has no provisions to foster prosperous development in all nations.

Quote:

Here's a clue - because they are all governed by inept and self-serving people who cannot see further than the next batch of dollars coming their way, and who are willing to sell out their country and countrymen in return for dollars to them.

Governed by inept and self-serving people, maybe: but a systems change is needed.

Quote:

How is China any different? How is Russia? How is Kazakhstan? How is Nigeria?

They all have different resources, and global oversight mechanisms are needed, as outlined above.

Quote:

The STYLE of government here, and there - robber baronism clad in the fine raiments of democracy - needs to be changed - but not its FORM, thank you.

Government is tricky, but failure is not an option, if human civilization is to progress and succeed.

Personally I want to see a friendly competition between adversarial 2-party democracies and China's consensus one-party meritocracy.

Quote:

Do you know the difference?

Yes.

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freediver

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Re: Is The Democratic World Just Giving Up?
Reply #19 - May 8^th, 2022 at 12:43pm

thegreatdivide wrote on May 7^th, 2022 at 11:40pm:

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on May 7^th, 2022 at 6:26pm:

Like every fool in history they figure that having all control over everything is better than trading and just getting along... never worked yet and never will.

"Just trading and getting along...." like the US overthrow of Iran's first democratic government, in 1953.

"Mosaddegh was democratically elected into the office of the Prime Minister in 1951. He served until 1953, when his government was overthrown in the 1953 Iranian coup d'état orchestrated by the intelligence agencies of the United Kingdom (MI6) and the United States (CIA), led by Kermit Roosevelt Jr."

Mosaddegh made the 'mistake' of thinking Iranians should benefit from the exploitation of Iranian oil reserves, who'd have thunk it....

Meantime Shell has extracted so much oil from the Nigerian delta the entire population should be rich....

"just trading and getting along", indeed.

You have drunk so much of your own coolaid that it did not even occur to you that Mosaddegh's actions were the antithesis of "just trading and getting along".

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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thegreatdivide Gold Member Offline Australian Politics<br /> Posts: 13043 Gender:	Re: Is The Democratic World Just Giving Up? Reply #20 - May 8^th, 2022 at 12:51pm freediver wrote on May 8^th, 2022 at 12:43pm: You have drunk so much of your own coolaid that it did not even occur to you that Mosaddegh's actions were the antithesis of "just trading and getting along". What, you mean British and US monopoly of the oil industry was "trading and getting along"?....
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49231 At my desk.	Re: Is The Democratic World Just Giving Up? Reply #21 - May 8^th, 2022 at 12:52pm Britain and the US are countries, not companies. I understand a CCP stooge not noticing the difference. Also, two implies duopoly, not monopoly. Don't drink the coolaid.
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thegreatdivide

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Re: Is The Democratic World Just Giving Up?
Reply #22 - May 8^th, 2022 at 1:12pm

freediver wrote on May 8^th, 2022 at 12:52pm:

Britain and the US are countries, not companies.

British and US oil companies greedily claimed the profits of exploitation of the world's oil reserves for themselves. That's the background to the history of war in the ME, since WW2.

Quote:

I understand a CCP stooge not noticing the difference.

To repeat: I'm not a "CCP stooge"; my task is to expose the delusional nature of the disastrous "freedom"/ "individual rights" ideology which has such catastrophic consequences for collective well-being around the world.
Based on the triumph of the instinctive reptilian brain over rationality - the history of the human race.

Quote:

Also, two implies duopoly, not monopoly.

Western technology formed a greedy monopoly in the ME.

Quote:

Don't drink the coolaid.

"Know Thyself"......

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freediver

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Re: Is The Democratic World Just Giving Up?
Reply #23 - May 8^th, 2022 at 1:37pm

Quote:

To repeat: I'm not a "CCP stooge"

Yes you are. How do you go from British companies plus American companies to "monopoly"?

Do you know what the word means?

Quote:

Western technology formed a greedy monopoly in the ME.

Are you trying to blame the west for OPEC? Because they use western technology for what? Extracting oil?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Is The Democratic World Just Giving Up?
Reply #24 - May 8^th, 2022 at 2:03pm

freediver wrote on May 8^th, 2022 at 1:37pm:

Quote:

To repeat: I'm not a "CCP stooge"

Yes you are. How do you go from British companies plus American companies to "monopoly"?

Western monopolization of the oil industry.

Monopolization (meaning): "complete control of something, which prevents other people or companies having any share or influence". eg locking Iranians out of profits from developing their own resources ( in the CIA and MI6 engineered coup in 1973).

Quote:

Do you know what the word means?

Yes.

Quote:

Are you trying to blame the west for OPEC? Because they use western technology for what? Extracting oil?

Some OPEC countries are Western allies, some (eg Iran) are not; and Nigeria is being raped by Shell, which ever way you look at it.

"24 Oct 2018 — ... by IndustriALL Global Union has revealed the shocking exploitation of contract workers at Shell oil and gas operations in Nigeria".

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MeisterEckhart Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 12844 Gender:	Re: Is The Democratic World Just Giving Up? Reply #25 - May 8^th, 2022 at 2:09pm thegreatdivide wrote on May 8^th, 2022 at 1:12pm: To repeat: I'm not a "CCP stooge"; And yet your tactics here are exactly those the CCP instruct their prostitutes to use. Coincidence?
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thegreatdivide

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Re: Is The Democratic World Just Giving Up?
Reply #26 - May 8^th, 2022 at 2:33pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on May 8^th, 2022 at 2:09pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on May 8^th, 2022 at 1:12pm:

To repeat: I'm not a "CCP stooge";

And yet your tactics here are exactly those the CCP instruct their prostitutes to use.

Coincidence?

Yes. Regardless of "CCP tactics", my task is to expose the delusional nature of the disastrous Western "freedom"/"individual rights" ideology which has such catastrophic consequences for collective well-being around the world.

Based on the triumph of the instinctive reptilian brain over rationality - the history of the human race.

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freediver

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Re: Is The Democratic World Just Giving Up?
Reply #27 - May 8^th, 2022 at 2:39pm

Quote:

Western monopolization of the oil industry.

The 'west' is not a cohesive entity that can control anything. It is so powerful because it is in intense competition with itself.

Quote:

Some OPEC countries are Western allies, some (eg Iran) are not; and Nigeria is being raped by Shell, which ever way you look at it.

I notice you did not answer the question. Again. Just the sort of diversion you would expect from a CCP stooge.

Are you trying to blame the west for OPEC? Because they use western technology for what? Extracting oil?

Quote:

Yes. Regardless of "CCP tactics", my task is to expose the delusional nature of the disastrous Western "freedom"/"individual rights" ideology which has such catastrophic consequences for collective well-being around the world.

The only people motivated to do so are Muslims, because Islam is ideologically opposed to individualism, and stooges for various dictatorships. Your dishonesty regarding CCP lies and incompetence puts you squarely in their camp. According you you, 50 million dead Chinese is a "little mistake" that the Chinese people do not need to learn anything from. Yet you lecture us on disastrous consequences.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: Is The Democratic World Just Giving Up?
Reply #28 - May 8^th, 2022 at 2:45pm

thegreatdivide wrote on May 8^th, 2022 at 2:33pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on May 8^th, 2022 at 2:09pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on May 8^th, 2022 at 1:12pm:

To repeat: I'm not a "CCP stooge";

And yet your tactics here are exactly those the CCP instruct their prostitutes to use.

Coincidence?

Yes. Regardless of "CCP tactics",

Yet eerily in sync with the CCP's propaganda and misinformation arm of its security bureau with training their prostitutes.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Is The Democratic World Just Giving Up?
Reply #29 - May 8^th, 2022 at 3:15pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on May 8^th, 2022 at 2:45pm:

Yet eerily in sync with the CCP's propaganda and misinformation arm of its security bureau with training their prostitutes.

Only to a deluded "individual rights" ideologue whose perception of reality is grossly distorted by that blind instinct-based ideology.

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