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Victims of communism (Read 10518 times)
Frank
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Re: Victims of communism
Reply #405 - Jan 30th, 2023 at 2:41pm
 
wombatwoody wrote on Jan 29th, 2023 at 10:48pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 29th, 2023 at 12:45pm:
US style free-market market capitalism is killing 45,000 Americans every year because they can't afford health insurance, in the richest nation on the planet. 


Deepening poverty has multiple causes, but the capitalist economic system is major among them.  First, capitalism's periodic crises always increase poverty. More precisely, how capitalist corporations operate, in or out of crisis, regularly reproduces poverty.  At the top of every corporation, its major shareholders (15-20 or fewer) own controlling blocs of shares.  They select a board of directors - usually 15-20 individuals - who run the corporation.  These two tiny groups make all the key decisions: what, how, and where to produce and what to do with the profits.

Poverty is one result of this capitalist type of enterprise organization.  For example, corporate decisions generally aim to lower the number of workers or their wages or both.  They automate, export (outsource) jobs, and replace higher-paid workers by recruiting domestic and foreign substitutes willing to work for less.  These normal corporate actions generate rising poverty as the other side of rising profits.  When poverty and its miseries 'remain always with us,' workers tend to accept what employers dish out to avoid losing jobs and falling into poverty.

Another major corporate goal is to control politics.  Wherever all citizens can vote, workers' interests might prevail over those of directors and shareholders in elections.  To prevent that, corporations devote portions of their revenues to finance politicians, parties, mass media, and 'think tanks.'  Their goal is to 'shape public opinion' and control what government does.  They do not want crisis-driven budget deficits and national debts to be overcome by big tax increases on corporations and the rich.  Instead public discussion and politicians' actions are kept focused chiefly on cutting social programs for the majority.

Corporate goals include providing high and rising salaries, stock options, and bonuses to top executives and rising dividends and share prices to shareholders.  The less paid to the workers who actually produce what corporations sell, the more corporate revenue goes to satisfy directors, top managers, and major shareholders.

Corporations also raise profits regularly by increasing prices and/or cutting production costs (often by compromising output quality).  Higher priced and poorer-quality goods are sold mostly to working people.  This too pushes them toward poverty just like lower wages and benefits and government service cuts.

Over the years, government interventions like Social Security, Medicare, minimum wage laws, regulations, etc. never sufficed to eradicate poverty.  They often helped the poor, but they never ended poverty.  The same applies to charities aiding the poor.  Poverty always remained. Something more than government interventions or charity is required to end poverty.


Capitalism and Poverty - Richard D. Wolff, Professor Emeritus, University of Massachusetts and Visiting Professor at the Graduate Program in International Affairs of the New School University, New York.


The New School is the American branch of the Frankfurt School.

"The New School for Social Research believes that research and pedagogy should advance economic justice, promote an understanding of change, and train the next generation to influence public debate.  Its commitment to progressive values, academic freedom, rigorous scholarship, and critical theory in the tradition of the Frankfurt School lies at the heart of The New School's history and draws upon the vital legacy of the University in Exile."
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freediver
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Re: Victims of communism
Reply #406 - Jan 30th, 2023 at 3:59pm
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 30th, 2023 at 2:27pm:
freediver wrote on Jan 30th, 2023 at 1:45pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 29th, 2023 at 12:45pm:
freediver wrote on Jan 28th, 2023 at 11:47am:
Quote:
That was 60 years ago


You mean, before the demise of communism?


Before the demise of Stalinist-style central planning.


What is the difference? Are you trying to distinguish between stalinist communism and the free market communism they have in China?


yes.


Can you tell us what free market communism is?
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thegreatdivide
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Re: Victims of communism
Reply #407 - Jan 30th, 2023 at 8:16pm
 
Frank wrote on Jan 30th, 2023 at 2:41pm:
wombatwoody wrote on Jan 29th, 2023 at 10:48pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 29th, 2023 at 12:45pm:
US style free-market market capitalism is killing 45,000 Americans every year because they can't afford health insurance, in the richest nation on the planet. 


Deepening poverty has multiple causes, but the capitalist economic system is major among them.  First, capitalism's periodic crises always increase poverty. More precisely, how capitalist corporations operate, in or out of crisis, regularly reproduces poverty.  At the top of every corporation, its major shareholders (15-20 or fewer) own controlling blocs of shares.  They select a board of directors - usually 15-20 individuals - who run the corporation.  These two tiny groups make all the key decisions: what, how, and where to produce and what to do with the profits.

Poverty is one result of this capitalist type of enterprise organization.  For example, corporate decisions generally aim to lower the number of workers or their wages or both.  They automate, export (outsource) jobs, and replace higher-paid workers by recruiting domestic and foreign substitutes willing to work for less.  These normal corporate actions generate rising poverty as the other side of rising profits.  When poverty and its miseries 'remain always with us,' workers tend to accept what employers dish out to avoid losing jobs and falling into poverty.

Another major corporate goal is to control politics.  Wherever all citizens can vote, workers' interests might prevail over those of directors and shareholders in elections.  To prevent that, corporations devote portions of their revenues to finance politicians, parties, mass media, and 'think tanks.'  Their goal is to 'shape public opinion' and control what government does.  They do not want crisis-driven budget deficits and national debts to be overcome by big tax increases on corporations and the rich.  Instead public discussion and politicians' actions are kept focused chiefly on cutting social programs for the majority.

Corporate goals include providing high and rising salaries, stock options, and bonuses to top executives and rising dividends and share prices to shareholders.  The less paid to the workers who actually produce what corporations sell, the more corporate revenue goes to satisfy directors, top managers, and major shareholders.

Corporations also raise profits regularly by increasing prices and/or cutting production costs (often by compromising output quality).  Higher priced and poorer-quality goods are sold mostly to working people.  This too pushes them toward poverty just like lower wages and benefits and government service cuts.

Over the years, government interventions like Social Security, Medicare, minimum wage laws, regulations, etc. never sufficed to eradicate poverty.  They often helped the poor, but they never ended poverty.  The same applies to charities aiding the poor.  Poverty always remained. Something more than government interventions or charity is required to end poverty.


Capitalism and Poverty - Richard D. Wolff, Professor Emeritus, University of Massachusetts and Visiting Professor at the Graduate Program in International Affairs of the New School University, New York.


The New School is the American branch of the Frankfurt School.

"The New School for Social Research believes that research and pedagogy should advance economic justice, promote an understanding of change, and train the next generation to influence public debate.  Its commitment to progressive values, academic freedom, rigorous scholarship, and critical theory in the tradition of the Frankfurt School lies at the heart of The New School's history and draws upon the vital legacy of the University in Exile."


Thanks. And?
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thegreatdivide
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Re: Victims of communism
Reply #408 - Jan 30th, 2023 at 8:24pm
 
freediver wrote on Jan 30th, 2023 at 3:59pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 30th, 2023 at 2:27pm:
freediver wrote on Jan 30th, 2023 at 1:45pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 29th, 2023 at 12:45pm:
freediver wrote on Jan 28th, 2023 at 11:47am:
Quote:
That was 60 years ago


You mean, before the demise of communism?


Before the demise of Stalinist-style central planning.


What is the difference? Are you trying to distinguish between stalinist communism and the free market communism they have in China?


yes.


Can you tell us what free market communism is?


Apparently too subtle for your conservative 'law by the letter' brain.

It's "socialism with Chinese characteristics".

or..

a free market operating alongside dominant, significant SOEs in the economy, with considerable government subsidization of companies and citizens. 

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thegreatdivide
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Re: Victims of communism
Reply #409 - Jan 30th, 2023 at 8:25pm
 
>
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freediver
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Re: Victims of communism
Reply #410 - Jan 30th, 2023 at 8:27pm
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 30th, 2023 at 8:24pm:
freediver wrote on Jan 30th, 2023 at 3:59pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 30th, 2023 at 2:27pm:
freediver wrote on Jan 30th, 2023 at 1:45pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 29th, 2023 at 12:45pm:
freediver wrote on Jan 28th, 2023 at 11:47am:
Quote:
That was 60 years ago


You mean, before the demise of communism?


Before the demise of Stalinist-style central planning.


What is the difference? Are you trying to distinguish between stalinist communism and the free market communism they have in China?


yes.


Can you tell us what free market communism is?


Apparently too subtle for your conservative 'law by the letter' brain.

It's "socialism with Chinese characteristics".


So free market socialism is just the CCP pretending they are still communists by reversing the meaning of the word?
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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.
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Frank
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Re: Victims of communism
Reply #411 - Jan 30th, 2023 at 8:49pm
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 30th, 2023 at 8:16pm:
Frank wrote on Jan 30th, 2023 at 2:41pm:
wombatwoody wrote on Jan 29th, 2023 at 10:48pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 29th, 2023 at 12:45pm:
US style free-market market capitalism is killing 45,000 Americans every year because they can't afford health insurance, in the richest nation on the planet. 


Deepening poverty has multiple causes, but the capitalist economic system is major among them.  First, capitalism's periodic crises always increase poverty. More precisely, how capitalist corporations operate, in or out of crisis, regularly reproduces poverty.  At the top of every corporation, its major shareholders (15-20 or fewer) own controlling blocs of shares.  They select a board of directors - usually 15-20 individuals - who run the corporation.  These two tiny groups make all the key decisions: what, how, and where to produce and what to do with the profits.

Poverty is one result of this capitalist type of enterprise organization.  For example, corporate decisions generally aim to lower the number of workers or their wages or both.  They automate, export (outsource) jobs, and replace higher-paid workers by recruiting domestic and foreign substitutes willing to work for less.  These normal corporate actions generate rising poverty as the other side of rising profits.  When poverty and its miseries 'remain always with us,' workers tend to accept what employers dish out to avoid losing jobs and falling into poverty.

Another major corporate goal is to control politics.  Wherever all citizens can vote, workers' interests might prevail over those of directors and shareholders in elections.  To prevent that, corporations devote portions of their revenues to finance politicians, parties, mass media, and 'think tanks.'  Their goal is to 'shape public opinion' and control what government does.  They do not want crisis-driven budget deficits and national debts to be overcome by big tax increases on corporations and the rich.  Instead public discussion and politicians' actions are kept focused chiefly on cutting social programs for the majority.

Corporate goals include providing high and rising salaries, stock options, and bonuses to top executives and rising dividends and share prices to shareholders.  The less paid to the workers who actually produce what corporations sell, the more corporate revenue goes to satisfy directors, top managers, and major shareholders.

Corporations also raise profits regularly by increasing prices and/or cutting production costs (often by compromising output quality).  Higher priced and poorer-quality goods are sold mostly to working people.  This too pushes them toward poverty just like lower wages and benefits and government service cuts.

Over the years, government interventions like Social Security, Medicare, minimum wage laws, regulations, etc. never sufficed to eradicate poverty.  They often helped the poor, but they never ended poverty.  The same applies to charities aiding the poor.  Poverty always remained. Something more than government interventions or charity is required to end poverty.


Capitalism and Poverty - Richard D. Wolff, Professor Emeritus, University of Massachusetts and Visiting Professor at the Graduate Program in International Affairs of the New School University, New York.


The New School is the American branch of the Frankfurt School.

"The New School for Social Research believes that research and pedagogy should advance economic justice, promote an understanding of change, and train the next generation to influence public debate.  Its commitment to progressive values, academic freedom, rigorous scholarship, and critical theory in the tradition of the Frankfurt School lies at the heart of The New School's history and draws upon the vital legacy of the University in Exile."


Thanks. And?

Don't  you worry, pal, I was posting that for people who do have some nodding acquaintance with ideas beyong a quick google, like you.

Back to your reverie.

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« Last Edit: Jan 30th, 2023 at 9:13pm by Frank »  

Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.
 
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thegreatdivide
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Re: Victims of communism
Reply #412 - Jan 30th, 2023 at 9:13pm
 
freediver wrote on Jan 30th, 2023 at 8:27pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 30th, 2023 at 8:24pm:
freediver wrote on Jan 30th, 2023 at 3:59pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 30th, 2023 at 2:27pm:
freediver wrote on Jan 30th, 2023 at 1:45pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 29th, 2023 at 12:45pm:
freediver wrote on Jan 28th, 2023 at 11:47am:
Quote:
That was 60 years ago


You mean, before the demise of communism?


Before the demise of Stalinist-style central planning.


What is the difference? Are you trying to distinguish between stalinist communism and the free market communism they have in China?


yes.


Can you tell us what free market communism is?


Apparently too subtle for your conservative 'law by the letter' brain.

It's "socialism with Chinese characteristics".


So free market socialism is just the CCP pretending they are still communists by reversing the meaning of the word?


Communism isn't the reverse of free market socialism; it's on the same economic branch.

Cf. free market capitalism; rather than subsidizing consumers, these lovely private sector capitalists rob them.

https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/us/us-utilities-shut-off-power-to-millions-amid-r... 

US utilities shut off power to millions amid record corporate profits – report

"The shutoffs disproportionately affect low income and customers from communities of color, and the “harrowing” situation is driven by corporate profiteering, said Selah Goodson Bell, a study co-author and energy justice campaigner with the Center For Biological Diversity.

Losing power has an often devastating impact on a household, including in terms of health and safety. “Shutoffs allow corporate utilities to punish customers’ economic precarity while guaranteeing record profits and massive payouts for themselves and their investors,” the authors wrote in the report. It was compiled with utility industry analyst Energy and Policy Institute and BailoutWatch".






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thegreatdivide
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Re: Victims of communism
Reply #413 - Jan 30th, 2023 at 9:13pm
 
>
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freediver
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Re: Victims of communism
Reply #414 - Jan 31st, 2023 at 6:11am
 
Quote:
Communism isn't the reverse of free market socialism; it's on the same economic branch.

Cf. free market capitalism; rather than subsidizing consumers, these lovely private sector capitalists rob them.


So what do socialism and capitalism mean, if it is nothing to do with whether there is a free market?
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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.
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