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ROE v WADE Overturned (Read 5736 times)
Steampipe
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Re: ROE v WADE Overturned
Reply #195 - Jul 20th, 2022 at 11:12am
 
AusGeoff wrote on Jul 20th, 2022 at 7:18am:
Jovial Monk wrote on Jul 19th, 2022 at 6:47pm:
Whoever supports this is just scum...

https://i.postimg.cc/Z5W6Q57T/FX-RBg-EXw-AAs-L9u-1.png
_____________________________________________________________________________
This is just disgusting.  What a horrific scenario for the poor woman.
They should've video'd this and forced all justices on the Supreme
Court to watch it.  Would any of them have been happy were the
patient their wife or daughter?      I'm betting not.




This is just milking the political angle.

No doctor would be charged if they protected their patient.

Just like it is against the law to drive over the speed limit but if you have a medical emergency and drive over the limit no policeman will charge you.

Lawyers advice will always be by the letter of the law.

I don't believe that this story is even true.
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Jovial Monk
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Re: ROE v WADE Overturned
Reply #196 - Jul 20th, 2022 at 1:30pm
 
This is, apparently, “babies winning:”



Quote:
Last year, a 35-year-old woman named Amanda, who lives in the Dallas-Fort Worth area, had a miscarriage in the first trimester of her pregnancy. At a large hospital, a doctor performed a surgical procedure often used as a safe and quick method to remove tissue from a failed pregnancy.

She awoke from anesthesia to find a card signed by the nurses and a little pink and blue bracelet with a butterfly charm, a gift from the hospital to express compassion for her loss. “It was so sweet because it’s such a hard thing to go through,” Amanda said.

Eight months later, in January, Amanda, who asked to be identified by her first name to protect her privacy, experienced another first-trimester miscarriage. She said she went to the same hospital, Baylor Scott & White Medical Center, doubled over in pain and screaming as she passed a large blood clot.



But when she requested the same surgical evacuation procedure, called dilation and curettage, or D&C, she said the hospital told her no.



A D&C is the same procedure used for some abortions. In September 2021, in between Amanda’s two miscarriages, Texas implemented a law banning almost all abortions after six weeks into pregnancy.

Following the reversal of Roe v. Wade, numerous states are enacting bans or sharp restrictions on abortion. While the laws are technically intended to apply only to abortions, some patients have reported hurdles receiving standard surgical procedures or medication for the loss of desired pregnancies.

Amanda said the hospital didn’t mention the abortion law, but sent her home with instructions to return only if she was bleeding so excessively that her blood filled a diaper more than once an hour. Hospital records that Amanda shared with The New York Times noted that her embryo had no cardiac activity during that visit and on an ultrasound a week earlier. “She reports having a lot of pain” and “she appears distressed,” the records said.

“This appears to be miscarriage in process,” the records noted, but suggested waiting to confirm and advised a follow-up in seven days.



Once home, Amanda said, she sat on the toilet digging “fingernail marks in my wall” from the pain. She then moved to the bathtub, where her husband held her hand as they both cried. “The bathtub water is just dark red,” Amanda recalled. “For 48 hours, it was like a constant heavy bleed and big clots.”



She added, “It was so different from my first experience where they were so nice and so comforting, to now just feeling alone and terrified.”





https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/17/health/abortion-miscarriage-treatment.html



What scumbags think this is desirable or normal in the 21st century?
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Get the vaxx! 💉💉

If you don’t like abortions ignore them like you do school shootings.
 
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0ktema
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Re: ROE v WADE Overturned
Reply #197 - Jul 20th, 2022 at 10:10pm
 
I found this passage from an essay, by the late English moral philosopher Sir Bernard Williams, to be particularly worthy of consideration when approaching the subject of abortion.

"Whether it is actually possible, in the long run, to have a society which combines full acceptance of liberal abortion institutions with humane attitudes to such things as birth, death and killing depends, in part, on whether it is genuinely possible for most people, without either self-deception or brutality, to feel that the killing of a foetus is something basically different from the killing of a separate human being: to feel that, not just to think it. Whether that is possible for most people I do not claim to know. But there is one significant piece of evidence on the subject which does not seem to be often mentioned: that there is a difference between the death of a foetus in early pregnancy, and the death of a separate human being.

This is a difference, above all, in the experience of women. A genuine psychological distinction, for most women, exists with regard to spontaneous abortion: for most women, to miscarry at two or three months is not at all the same experience as a stillbirth, or an infant dying in its first weeks. I speak of the emotional or psychological difference, not just of the obvious physical difference, though that itself no doubt contributes. If there is that difference with regard to spontaneous abortion, it is no good, on the question of induced abortion, advancing theories or fears which involve the consequence that the difference should not exist, that miscarriage and stillbirth should seem the same. Yet many moral theories about abortion do seem to have that consequence.

This is a point about the experience of women. In the end, this issue can only come back to the experience of women. This is not because their experiences are the only thing that count. It is because their experiences are the only realistic and honest guide we have to what the unique phenomenon of abortion genuinely is, as opposed to what moralists, philosophers and legislators say it is, It follows that their experience is the only realistic guide to what the deepest consequences will be of our social attitudes to abortion."


https://books.google.com.au/books?id=tW2YDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA151&lpg=PA151&dq=Whether+...

Here is the 20min video on Roe vs Wade which led me to the above passage ...


I have developed vast respect for Vlad Vexler, his contributions to understanding the Russia/Ukraine crisis are outstanding!

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"We Are Consciousness Itself"
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AusGeoff
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Re: ROE v WADE Overturned
Reply #198 - Jul 21st, 2022 at 4:28am
 
Steampipe wrote on Jul 20th, 2022 at 11:12am:
...Just like it is against the law to drive over the speed limit but if you have a medical emergency and drive over the limit no policeman will charge you.

I couldn't find any confirmation of that.   Links please.

Legal Aid Victoria says you could be charged, initially, for breaking the speed limit.

In court, "you may have a defence if you had to speed because of an emergency,
for example if someone was critically ill in the car. The magistrate will decide if
your reason is good enough. You might also have a defence if you did not speed
voluntarily. For example, you had a seizure".

I understand it's more likely though that a police vehicle will provide you an escort
to the hospital, with lights and siren.


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Frank
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Re: ROE v WADE Overturned
Reply #199 - Jul 21st, 2022 at 10:56am
 
Bernard Williams was very good at presenting the lay of the land of philosophical issues. He was very good at seeing and seeing through where various other philosophers were coming from. He was coming from an old left/Labour perspective himself.

I agree that a woman's experience is very significant but I cannot agree that it is is the "only realistic and honest guide we have to what the unique phenomenon of abortion genuinely is". Abortion affects others, not just the woman and secondly, a woman's experience is informed by a broader landscape of experiences and values around her. Making a baby and aborting it or bringing it into the world are not exclusive and private experiences of women alone.

Williams sets out the lay of the land and shows that there is, as always, a balance here and that balance is negotiated by various voices and parties, the woman's own being a very significant one.
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FutureTheLeftWant
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Re: ROE v WADE Overturned
Reply #200 - Jul 21st, 2022 at 10:58am
 
Frank wrote on Jul 21st, 2022 at 10:56am:
Bernard Williams was very good at presenting the lay of the land of philosophical issues. He was very good at seeing and seeing through where various other philosophers were coming from. He was coming from an old left/Labour perspective himself.

I agree that a woman's experience is very significant but I cannot agree that it is is the "only realistic and honest guide we have to what the unique phenomenon of abortion genuinely is". Abortion affects others, not just the woman and secondly, a woman's experience is informed by a broader landscape of experiences and values around her. Making a baby and aborting it or bringing it into the world are not exclusive and private experiences of women alone.

Williams sets out the lay of the land and shows that there is, as always, a balance here and that balance is negotiated by various voices and parties, the woman's own being a very significant one.


Shouldn't you be considering which is Tucker Carlson's most compelling argument, to shame me once and for all?
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Steampipe
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Re: ROE v WADE Overturned
Reply #201 - Jul 21st, 2022 at 11:06am
 
AusGeoff wrote on Jul 21st, 2022 at 4:28am:
Steampipe wrote on Jul 20th, 2022 at 11:12am:
...Just like it is against the law to drive over the speed limit but if you have a medical emergency and drive over the limit no policeman will charge you.

I couldn't find any confirmation of that.   Links please.

Legal Aid Victoria says you could be charged, initially, for breaking the speed limit.


In court, "you may have a defence if you had to speed because of an emergency,
for example if someone was critically ill in the car. The magistrate will decide if
your reason is good enough. You might also have a defence if you did not speed
voluntarily. For example, you had a seizure".

I understand it's more likely though that a police vehicle will provide you an escort
to the hospital, with lights and siren.




It will take less time for you to list all the people charged with driving over the speed limit when genuinely rushing someone to hospital.


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SadKangaroo
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Re: ROE v WADE Overturned
Reply #202 - Jul 21st, 2022 at 3:28pm
 
Panther wrote on Jul 9th, 2022 at 11:18am:
John Smith wrote on Jul 9th, 2022 at 11:07am:
Sprintcyclist wrote on Jul 9th, 2022 at 10:21am:
AiA wrote on Jul 8th, 2022 at 11:08pm:
Joe Biden to sign executive order protecting access to abortion


https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jul/08/joe-biden-to-sign-order-offering...




Good.


it's a good start, but it doesn't restore womens rights to what they were. It's now up to Americans to vote out republicans across the board at the next election and allow the democrats to pass a law that gives them back those rights.


If they want to make Abortion a Right, then they will have to go the Amendment route.....a simple legislative action is only as good as long as it stays in favor of the political party in power, whereas a Constitutional Amendment is the Law of the Land unless amended itself.

Being that amending the US Constitution has only been successful 17 times in over 230 years, it tends to stick when it is......


No they don't, they just need to change how other parts of the constitution are interpreted, just like with the 2nd amendment. 

It never used to mean every person has the right to carry whatever gun they want, whenever they want and nobody can stop them, it meant what was written and the NRA even supported that too at one point helping shape legislation that came into law restricting weapons, which included a national registry for machine guns and sawed-off shotguns and taxing them heavily.

The constitution and the amendments mean fu
ck
all, it's all how SCOTUS decides to interpret it, otherwise, only well-regulated militias would have the right to bear arms, not lone wolf gravy seals in meal team six.

All they need to do is set a new precedent.

It would be impossible to do today without either some folks 2nd amendmenting some of the current judges or by expanding the court to include more judges.
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Frank
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Re: ROE v WADE Overturned
Reply #203 - Jul 21st, 2022 at 5:59pm
 
Abortion laws raise challenging moral questions. It’s not for judges to make up the bioethics of trimesters, viability, and the dividing line between foetus and human life. Rather, it is for people through their elected representatives to find the appropriate balance between the competing interests of women, the unborn child, and society’s moral compass. Legislatures legislate to make law; the judiciary applies law. Using the judiciary to resolve highly political contestation can increase social conflict. Only the democratic process can facilitate compromise and adjustment based on a rigorous assessment of the full range of policy considerations and carefully crafted exemptions and protections.

SCOTUS did not outlaw abortion or make a finding on the merits of abortion, only on whether the US Constitution confers a nationwide right to abortion. Answering in the negative, it returns the matter to the political arena of democratic contestation on a state-by-state basis. As has become distressingly commonplace, the extremists hog the bullhorns while the broad middle with nuanced views on this morally fraught issue retreats into self-silencing solitude. Some believe life begins at conception and all abortion is the slaughter of innocents. Others, that any woman has the right to choose abortion to the very edge of birth. Most believe that abortion should be available under some circumstances but vary on the nature of the restrictions.

The hysterical claptrap let loose on the world since the Dobbs v Jackson decision, ignores the legal nature of the decision, the simple statement that courts should stay out of this and leave it to the democratic process to resolve. Instead, the complexity of the issue is reduced to soundbites and bumper sticker slogans. ‘F— you, Supreme Court!’ was the thoughtful response, middle finger raised, from singer Janelle Monáe.

Ramesh Thakur
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John Smith
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Re: ROE v WADE Overturned
Reply #204 - Jul 21st, 2022 at 6:09pm
 
Frank wrote on Jul 21st, 2022 at 5:59pm:
only on whether the US Constitution confers a nationwide right to abortion.


no it didn't.

It overturned a 50 yr ruling on a womans right to privacy ... a right afforded to women by the 14th amendment. They basically argued that the 14th amendment didn't apply against state abortion laws. The rethuglican puppets currently in the supreme court don't care about the constitution .. for them this was about politics.

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Our esteemed leader:
I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.
 
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Frank
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Re: ROE v WADE Overturned
Reply #205 - Jul 26th, 2022 at 10:03am
 
Woman Terrified She May Have To Actually Use One Of The Dozens Of Cheap, Readily Available Methods of Birth Control In Post-Roe America


GRAND RAPIDS, MI — Thousands of women around the country are being forced to face a terrifying new reality in which they actually have to use one of the dozens of cheap, readily available methods of birth control in post-Roe America.

"For the first time, my habit of having unprotected sex with a different Tinder date every week to fill the empty hole in my soul may have consequences," said local concerned woman Sandra Tibbensburg. "I can't be bothered to stop at the gas station and pay three bucks for a pack of Trojans every time I go to a sleepover at a strange man's house! This is literally The Handmaid's Tale."

Some women are even going further, taking the drastic step of avoiding sex altogether outside the bonds of marriage. "I can't believe it has come to this point, but I may have to start being responsible with my body and relationships," said another concerned woman. "My very humanity has been stripped away from me now that I can't act like a sex-crazed animal. This is so scary."

With the dangers of post-Roe America ever-present, many women are now demanding servants follow them around to feed them free birth control crushed up in applesauce on a spoon. "If we don't do this, rights are dead in America," said Tibbensburg.

At publishing time, men reported being terrified they may actually have to start working hard for a woman's affections and getting married before having sex.

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Frank
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Re: ROE v WADE Overturned
Reply #206 - Jul 26th, 2022 at 10:06am
 
John Smith wrote on Jul 21st, 2022 at 6:09pm:
Frank wrote on Jul 21st, 2022 at 5:59pm:
only on whether the US Constitution confers a nationwide right to abortion.


no it didn't.

It overturned a 50 yr ruling on a womans right to privacy ... a right afforded to women by the 14th amendment. They basically argued that the 14th amendment didn't apply against state abortion laws. The rethuglican puppets currently in the supreme court don't care about the constitution .. for them this was about politics.



Abortion is carried out in a clinical setting, involving dozens of people - hardly a procedure carried out in the privacy of your bedroom as the the act that led to it was.
It is a personal matter but very far from something done in privacy.

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John Smith
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Re: ROE v WADE Overturned
Reply #207 - Jul 26th, 2022 at 10:17am
 
Frank wrote on Jul 26th, 2022 at 10:06am:
John Smith wrote on Jul 21st, 2022 at 6:09pm:
Frank wrote on Jul 21st, 2022 at 5:59pm:
only on whether the US Constitution confers a nationwide right to abortion.


no it didn't.

It overturned a 50 yr ruling on a womans right to privacy ... a right afforded to women by the 14th amendment. They basically argued that the 14th amendment didn't apply against state abortion laws. The rethuglican puppets currently in the supreme court don't care about the constitution .. for them this was about politics.



Abortion is carried out in a clinical setting, involving dozens of people - hardly a procedure carried out in the privacy of your bedroom as the the act that led to it was.
It is a personal matter but very far from something done in privacy.




Grin Grin Grin

thats a pathetic excuse, even by your standards. Just about all medical procedures are carried out in clinical settings. That doesn't mean others get a say in what you do.

Let me guess, you think doctor /client privacy is a bad thing too??  Cheesy Cheesy
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Our esteemed leader:
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Frank
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Re: ROE v WADE Overturned
Reply #208 - Jul 26th, 2022 at 11:18am
 
John Smith wrote on Jul 21st, 2022 at 6:09pm:
Frank wrote on Jul 21st, 2022 at 5:59pm:
only on whether the US Constitution confers a nationwide right to abortion.


no it didn't.

It overturned a 50 yr ruling on a womans right to privacy ... a right afforded to women by the 14th amendment. They basically argued that the 14th amendment didn't apply against state abortion laws. The rethuglican puppets currently in the supreme court don't care about the constitution .. for them this was about politics.


Amendment XIV
Section 1.
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Section 2.
Representatives shall be apportioned among the several states according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each state, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the executive and judicial officers of a state, or the members of the legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such state, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such state.

Section 3.
No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any state, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any state legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any state, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.

Section 4.
The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any state shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.

Section 5.
The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/amendmentxiv
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AusGeoff
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Re: ROE v WADE Overturned
Reply #209 - Jul 26th, 2022 at 1:09pm
 
Frank wrote on Jul 26th, 2022 at 10:06am:
...Abortion is carried out in a clinical setting, involving dozens of people - hardly a procedure carried out in the privacy of your bedroom as the the act that led to it was.
It is a personal matter but very far from something done in privacy.


Not so.  I'm guessing you've never been in an abortion clinic?

The woman is in a private room in the surgery, with the doctor
and one, or sometimes two nurses.  And  the commonly used
vacuum aspiration takes about 5-10 minutes to perform, so it's
hardly a drawn out procedure (if you'll excuse the pun).

And of course abortions need to be carried out in a suitably
equipped surgery with all its hygiene and sterilisation procedures
in place.  Do you seriously believe that it's better for abortions
to be carried out in a bedroom, with all its concomitant health and
safety risks?

And as for your claimed "dozens" of people?     Nonsensical.


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