Australian Politics Forum - Full Employment abandoned.

thegreatdivide

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Re: Full Employment abandoned.
Reply #45 - Jul 20^th, 2022 at 2:25pm

lee wrote on Jul 20^th, 2022 at 2:15pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 20^th, 2022 at 1:47pm:

But by 1944 the cost of the war was sky-high, hence the seeming reversal of the earlier statement on tax.

And after the war? Roll Eyes

Edit:

" In order to meet the needs of the war economy 20,000 soldiers were released from the Australian Army in October 1943. Further reductions took place in August 1944 when another 30,000 soldiers and 15,000 personnel from the Royal Australian Air Force were discharged. In mid-1945 the Government implemented a policy in which service men and women who had completed five years of service, including at least two years outside Australia, could volunteer for discharge."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demobilisation_of_the_Australian_military_after_Wo...

In any case both he and Menzies succeeded in ushering in a post war environment of high growth, moderate taxes and real full employment (ie <2%, and no underemployment), via Keynesian deficit spending.

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freediver

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Re: Full Employment abandoned.
Reply #46 - Jul 20^th, 2022 at 4:49pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 20^th, 2022 at 2:25pm:

lee wrote on Jul 20^th, 2022 at 2:15pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 20^th, 2022 at 1:47pm:

But by 1944 the cost of the war was sky-high, hence the seeming reversal of the earlier statement on tax.

And after the war? Roll Eyes

Edit:

" In order to meet the needs of the war economy 20,000 soldiers were released from the Australian Army in October 1943. Further reductions took place in August 1944 when another 30,000 soldiers and 15,000 personnel from the Royal Australian Air Force were discharged. In mid-1945 the Government implemented a policy in which service men and women who had completed five years of service, including at least two years outside Australia, could volunteer for discharge."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demobilisation_of_the_Australian_military_after_Wo...

In any case both he and Menzies succeeded in ushering in a post war environment of high growth, moderate taxes and real full employment (ie <2%, and no underemployment), via Keynesian deficit spending.

It's a lot easier to reach full employment when people are driven to find employment.

I also bet you that actual employment rates were lower then. There were lower expectations for women to work.

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thegreatdivide Gold Member Online Australian Politics<br /> Posts: 12444 Gender:	Re: Full Employment abandoned. Reply #47 - Jul 20^th, 2022 at 6:42pm Article from Prof. Bill Mitchell: http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=50155 The global poly crisis is the culmination of the absurdity of neoliberalism
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thegreatdivide

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Re: Full Employment abandoned.
Reply #48 - Jul 20^th, 2022 at 6:59pm

freediver wrote on Jul 20^th, 2022 at 4:49pm:

It's a lot easier to reach full employment when people are driven to find employment.

Er....see Prof. Bill Mitchel's post linked in the previous post. Admittedly, Oz govts. in the immediate post war years funded public investment via a large public service required to support massive public investment nation building projects like the Snowy River scheme, and massive roll-out of public housing, and a Commonwealth Employment service dedicated to matching available labour to jobs.

Quote:

I also bet you that actual employment rates were lower then. There were lower expectations for women to work.

Interestingly, in the Chifley-Menzies era, women left the workforce when they married, since a male bread winner on an average wage could easily support a family with 4 kids. Mom's hands were full of course, child-care was neither available or necessary.

Hence married women were not counted as unemployed, as indeed they were not....they were unpaid child and home carers.

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« Last Edit: Jul 20^th, 2022 at 7:04pm by thegreatdivide »

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48833 At my desk.	Re: Full Employment abandoned. Reply #49 - Jul 20^th, 2022 at 7:18pm Is English your second language?
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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: Full Employment abandoned.
Reply #50 - Jul 20^th, 2022 at 7:23pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 20^th, 2022 at 6:59pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 20^th, 2022 at 4:49pm:

It's a lot easier to reach full employment when people are driven to find employment.

Er....see Prof. Bill Mitchel's post linked in the previous post. Admittedly, Oz govts. in the immediate post war years funded public investment via a large public service required to support massive public investment nation building projects like the Snowy River scheme, and massive roll-out of public housing, and a Commonwealth Employment service dedicated to matching available labour to jobs.

Quote:

I also bet you that actual employment rates were lower then. There were lower expectations for women to work.

Interestingly, in the Chifley-Menzies era, women left the workforce when they married, since a male bread winner on an average wage could easily support a family with 4 kids. Mom's hands were full of course, child-care was neither available or necessary.

Hence married women were not counted as unemployed, as indeed they were not....they were unpaid child and home carers.

Not unpaid - they shared the family income... same as super and such - of course these things are ignored in 'calculations' of 'wage gaps' and 'super gaps'..... just don't tell anyone, OK?

Point is - as you said already - they didn't NEED to go to work for a family to thrive, so the man was left to do all the heavy lifting and dangerous work. Undecided

Now with the advent of the MADIF - the Mandatory Dual Income Family - since the early 1980's following the mass introduction of women into work and with affirmative action to boot, which lead to a near-instant doubling in the price of homes and that situation has never looked back since... only gotten worse for families struggling to get a start in life..... women NEED to go to work just to make family ends meet - and then along came the 'need' for heavily subsidised childcare etc.... all out of the budget pocket ..... fascinating...... talk about a luxury run and incredible sense of Entitlement™.

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: Full Employment abandoned.
Reply #51 - Jul 20^th, 2022 at 7:29pm

Again - given the Covid shutdown on mass importation of migrants and the eventual loosening of restrictions - now there is an apparent (relative) glut of jobs available... with unemployment theoretically falling to 3.5% as a result of low immigration and return to work.... I wouldn't call that 'low' unemployment given that so many are part-time casuals... someone said they love it that way - not the young ones I know who can never see home ownership, stable family etc, anywhere on the horizon.

Now, of course, this alleged 'shortage of workers' will mean that government will resume its mad race to the bottom of Australian society and culture via mass importation of large groups of Third Worlders... and the planned reduction of the masses of ordinary folk under the despotism of incipient poverty and part-time temporary will resume...

Back to the good old days of the swaggy wandering from place to place asking for a little work here and there - a hundred years of industrial relations and social progress gone in an instant....

The reasons for this are clear to any who choose to look.....

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Bam

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Re: Full Employment abandoned.
Reply #52 - Jul 21^st, 2022 at 12:39am

freediver wrote on Jul 20^th, 2022 at 4:49pm:

It's a lot easier to reach full employment when people are driven to find employment.

It's a lot easier to reach full employment when employers are driven to employ the jobless.

This isn't happening now because the current employment market has far too many barriers, such as ineffective job service providers, excessive recruitment costs for employers, excessive training costs for the unemployed and rampant discrimination against the unemployed.

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You are not entitled to your opinion. You are only entitled to hold opinions that you can defend through sound, reasoned argument.

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AusGeoff

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Re: Full Employment abandoned.
Reply #53 - Jul 21^st, 2022 at 3:11am

freediver wrote on Jul 20^th, 2022 at 4:49pm:

...I also bet you that actual employment rates were lower then. There were lower expectations for women to work.

I randomly chose the middle 1950s to check this out.

https://www.ausstats.abs.gov.au/ausstats/free.nsf/0/BA7571A92CFEE2B0CA25748E0005...

Post-WW2 Male employment rose, reaching a peak of 1,923,700 in March, 1952.
Post-WW2 Female employment also rose, reaching a peak of 724,000 in November, 1951.

Although these figures look low today, it needs to be remembered that in 1950,
Australia's population was only 8,200,000 people.

So... In the mid-1950s, the male/female worker ratio was 2.6:1
Today it's pretty close to 1:1 according to 2020 ABS data.

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: Full Employment abandoned.
Reply #54 - Jul 21^st, 2022 at 6:16am

P.S. The modern day swaggy moves from one part-time casual temporary seasonal to another.... just like in the old days.. the difference is that they swag in the back of their car, under the bridge, down by the riverbank or in a tent.... maybe in a single room somewhere if they are fortunate.

Increasingly, same as in the old days, men and women, children/families reside in the equivalent of the Snowies bark hut (it's in Eden) with thin walls and a fire going day and night for some warmth and a terrible diet etc. Maybe they live in a tent ..... in their mother's backyard.... can't afford rent ....

I see nothing good coming from any of this.....

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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freediver

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Re: Full Employment abandoned.
Reply #55 - Jul 21^st, 2022 at 6:57am

Bam wrote on Jul 21^st, 2022 at 12:39am:

freediver wrote on Jul 20^th, 2022 at 4:49pm:

It's a lot easier to reach full employment when people are driven to find employment.

It's a lot easier to reach full employment when employers are driven to employ the jobless.

This isn't happening now because the current employment market has far too many barriers, such as ineffective job service providers, excessive recruitment costs for employers, excessive training costs for the unemployed and rampant discrimination against the unemployed.

None of those make sense.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Full Employment abandoned.
Reply #56 - Jul 21^st, 2022 at 4:19pm

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jul 20^th, 2022 at 7:23pm:

Point is - as you said already - they didn't NEED to go to work for a family to thrive, so the man was left to do all the heavy lifting and dangerous work. Undecided

Now with the advent of the MADIF - the Mandatory Dual Income Family - since the early 1980's following the mass introduction of women into work and with affirmative action to boot, which lead to a near-instant doubling in the price of homes and that situation has never looked back since... only gotten worse for families struggling to get a start in life..... women NEED to go to work just to make family ends meet - and then along came the 'need' for heavily subsidised childcare etc.... all out of the budget pocket ..... fascinating...... talk about a luxury run and incredible sense of Entitlement™.

All true, but I suppose more and more women have finally gotten sick of 'barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen" as a career choice....

I blame global neoliberalism - and the junk consumer economy (as well as desire for McMansions) - for both parents needing to work, to support a family.

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Bam

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Re: Full Employment abandoned.
Reply #57 - Jul 21^st, 2022 at 4:33pm

freediver wrote on Jul 21^st, 2022 at 6:57am:

Bam wrote on Jul 21^st, 2022 at 12:39am:

freediver wrote on Jul 20^th, 2022 at 4:49pm:

It's a lot easier to reach full employment when people are driven to find employment.

It's a lot easier to reach full employment when employers are driven to employ the jobless.

This isn't happening now because the current employment market has far too many barriers, such as ineffective job service providers, excessive recruitment costs for employers, excessive training costs for the unemployed and rampant discrimination against the unemployed.

None of those make sense.

Because you do not understand these issues.

Why are you commenting on issues that you do not understand?

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You are not entitled to your opinion. You are only entitled to hold opinions that you can defend through sound, reasoned argument.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Full Employment abandoned.
Reply #58 - Jul 21^st, 2022 at 4:36pm

freediver wrote on Jul 20^th, 2022 at 4:49pm:

It's a lot easier to reach full employment when people are driven to find employment.

Nonsense, that's RW mythology; people were "driven to find jobs" just as much in the full employment Chifley- Menzies era.

Unemployment since the 70's, and involuntary underemployment since the GFC, have been consistently higher than in 1946 -1970's (average unemployment c.2%)

The Commonwealth Employment Service was closed BECAUSE the post-Thatcher neoliberal economy wrecked full employment, so the C.E. Service was outsourced to private companies pretending to supply non-existent jobs, when in reality they were only private welfare agencies.

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: Full Employment abandoned.
Reply #59 - Jul 21^st, 2022 at 10:52pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 21^st, 2022 at 4:19pm:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jul 20^th, 2022 at 7:23pm:

Point is - as you said already - they didn't NEED to go to work for a family to thrive, so the man was left to do all the heavy lifting and dangerous work. Undecided

Now with the advent of the MADIF - the Mandatory Dual Income Family - since the early 1980's following the mass introduction of women into work and with affirmative action to boot, which lead to a near-instant doubling in the price of homes and that situation has never looked back since... only gotten worse for families struggling to get a start in life..... women NEED to go to work just to make family ends meet - and then along came the 'need' for heavily subsidised childcare etc.... all out of the budget pocket ..... fascinating...... talk about a luxury run and incredible sense of Entitlement™.

All true, but I suppose more and more women have finally gotten sick of 'barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen" as a career choice....

I blame global neoliberalism - and the junk consumer economy (as well as desire for McMansions) - for both parents needing to work, to support a family.

Hyperbole - they were not 'barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen' .... it wasn't women who 'got sick of it' - it was men's science and progress in rights and actual votes that changed it all.... EVERY time men here gained something their first response was to give the same to the women... starting with universal male suffrage - at the very first vote on universal suffrage HERE in Australia men voted overwhelmingly that women should have an equal vote.

There was no 'great victory of suffragettes' - it was men who did it for them..... women had no vote and were in fact a minority at the time..... got it?

You there yet? Hyperbolic reminiscences and re-writings of history past do not add up to reality .....

Are you prepared to say that it was not the invention of reliable contraception that changed the status of women, and not their 'fearless freedom fighting' bullshit? Who invented the Pill?

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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