Australian Politics Forum - The question about a voice will be asked...

thegreatdivide

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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #1470 - Dec 1^st, 2022 at 12:36pm

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Dec 1^st, 2022 at 5:07am:

Hey - dividie - can you limit your monologues to about half so we can respond? You're running up against the word limit with all that word salad ...

OK. ("word salad" not withstanding...).

Quote:

Jacinta is right....

"No other racial group of Australians is framed in this way, and rightly so"

... they are NOT one contiguous group etc.... the locals here don't talk to the locals ten miles away... different tribes and old animosities... HTF would you have a treaty with that?

Examined and answered in #1469 above.

Quote:

Voice? You'd end up with what I told yez ages ago and now proven by the handover of Goat Island.... those on the committee are not even locals let alone descendants of the originals who had a legitimate claim... so that means the 'councils' will be stacked with 'outsiders' with the most standover (phrase courtesy of an Aboriginal woman)....

Sorry - One Law For All - All Laws For One - and a nation divided against itself cannot stand...

The idea is for a consensus black voice to inform a majority white parliament on policies for eliminating the black gap.

Quote:

Stick to trying to find an economic solution to the other issues - and try discussing the Voice.

The economy and the voice are related, because most Australians (white and black) want to close the (poverty-related) gap.

Quote:

Poverty and its alleviation has nothing to do with destroying the fabric of a nation to suit 3%

I will repeat: the idea of a voice is for a consensus black voice outside parliament, to inform a majority white parliament on policies for eliminating the black gap.

The existence of such a voice (assuming it is achievable, obviously Jacinta says it's not, others disagree) need not "destroy the fabric of the nation", though I agree the actual words which are proposed to be added to the constitution must avoid creating a nation with two voices.

But as to poverty - white and black - "It's the economy, stupid".

or as I would say: "It's the economic system, stupid".....

However, since you have proved to me you aren't capable of examining the failings in our current economic system, I will limit my comments to the mechanics of the voice itself and the words which the proponents of the voice propose to add to the constitution.

Here are Albo's suggestions he made at the Garma festival:

1. There shall be a body, to be called the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice.

2. Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice may make representations to parliament and the executive government on matters relating to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples.

3. The parliament shall, subject to this constitution, have power to make laws with respect to the composition, functions, powers and procedures of the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice.

Question: does that create two voices in the Oz nation?

#3 says that parliament remains supreme, hence only one voice; the constitution would merely recognize the fact of the prior and separate history of black Australians , before white settlement.

If that is the case (and I think it is), your concerns about the voice resulting in a divided nation ie, with '2 voices', are misplaced.

......

My own view either way is the economic system needs to be changed to close the gap (as per Noel Pearson's Job Guarantee proposal).

Enjoy the voice debate, I think it's a diversion from the real issues re closing the gap.
i

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« Last Edit: Dec 1^st, 2022 at 12:44pm by thegreatdivide »

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Frank

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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #1471 - Dec 1^st, 2022 at 1:41pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 1^st, 2022 at 12:36pm:

The idea is for a consensus black voice to inform a majority white parliament on policies for eliminating the black gap.

And where IS that consensus black voice. The very idea is a deeply racist notion, a Bidenesquely racist nonsense. Thee old moth-eaten sock puppet said that you are not black if you don't vote for him. What a patronising old ijit.

Same with the 'consensus black voice' bollocks. It's like reverse white supremacy: if you are claiming Aboriginality then you must think in one particular way about politics, society, history, economics, community, responsibility, obligation etc. As insulting and stupid as all whites are guilty, especially oif they deny their guilt.

Moronic nonsense either way. And you are for it.

'Eliminating the black gap" - pull up the pants and use a belt if you want to eliminate the black builders crack.

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Gnads

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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #1472 - Dec 1^st, 2022 at 1:48pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 1^st, 2022 at 12:36pm:

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Dec 1^st, 2022 at 5:07am:

Hey - dividie - can you limit your monologues to about half so we can respond? You're running up against the word limit with all that word salad ...

OK. ("word salad" not withstanding...).

Quote:

Jacinta is right....

"No other racial group of Australians is framed in this way, and rightly so"

... they are NOT one contiguous group etc.... the locals here don't talk to the locals ten miles away... different tribes and old animosities... HTF would you have a treaty with that?

Examined and answered in #1469 above.

Quote:

Voice? You'd end up with what I told yez ages ago and now proven by the handover of Goat Island.... those on the committee are not even locals let alone descendants of the originals who had a legitimate claim... so that means the 'councils' will be stacked with 'outsiders' with the most standover (phrase courtesy of an Aboriginal woman)....

Sorry - One Law For All - All Laws For One - and a nation divided against itself cannot stand...

The idea is for a consensus black voice to inform a majority white parliament on policies for eliminating the black gap.

Quote:

Stick to trying to find an economic solution to the other issues - and try discussing the Voice.

The economy and the voice are related, because most Australians (white and black) want to close the (poverty-related) gap.

Quote:

Poverty and its alleviation has nothing to do with destroying the fabric of a nation to suit 3%

I will repeat: the idea of a voice is for a consensus black voice outside parliament, to inform a majority white parliament on policies for eliminating the black gap.

The existence of such a voice (assuming it is achievable, obviously Jacinta says it's not, others disagree) need not "destroy the fabric of the nation", though I agree the actual words which are proposed to be added to the constitution must avoid creating a nation with two voices.

But as to poverty - white and black - "It's the economy, stupid".

or as I would say: "It's the economic system, stupid".....

However, since you have proved to me you aren't capable of examining the failings in our current economic system, I will limit my comments to the mechanics of the voice itself and the words which the proponents of the voice propose to add to the constitution.

Here are Albo's suggestions he made at the Garma festival:

1. There shall be a body, to be called the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice.

2. Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice may make representations to parliament and the executive government on matters relating to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples.

3. The parliament shall, subject to this constitution, have power to make laws with respect to the composition, functions, powers and procedures of the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice.

Question: does that create two voices in the Oz nation?

#3 says that parliament remains supreme, hence only one voice; the constitution would merely recognize the fact of the prior and separate history of black Australians , before white settlement.

If that is the case (and I think it is), your concerns about the voice resulting in a divided nation ie, with '2 voices', are misplaced.

......

My own view either way is the economic system needs to be changed to close the gap (as per Noel Pearson's Job Guarantee proposal).

Enjoy the voice debate, I think it's a diversion from the real issues re closing the gap.

The country is majority "white" - why wouldn't the Parliament reflect that?

As has been pointed out to you countless times there are at least 11 Aboriginal MPs & Senators in that Parliament .....

& proportionally that is an over representation ....

if you want to play the identity/ race politics.

That is more than enough "voice" to Parliament.

You're advocating a "constitutionally" placed extra parliamentary representation based purely on race.

That is a stupidly divisive idea.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #1473 - Dec 1^st, 2022 at 2:17pm

Gnads wrote on Dec 1^st, 2022 at 1:48pm:

[quote author=AusbetterWorld link=1659098415/1470#1470 date=1669862194][quote author=The_Grappler link=1659098415/1468#1468 date=1669835220]Hey

The country is majority "white" - why wouldn't the Parliament reflect that?

indeed the country is, and the Parliament does.

That is the point: a consensus black voice to advise a majority white parliament on black affairs.

Quote:

As has been pointed out to you countless times there are at least 11 Aboriginal MPs & Senators in that Parliament .....

out of c.220 MPs and senators

Quote:

& proportionally that is an over representation ....

but still very much a minority in the parliament...and a minority which is divided.

Quote:

if you want to play the identity/ race politics.

I don't.

Quote:

You're advocating a "constitutionally" placed extra parliamentary representation based purely on race.

One problem is the black race was denied recognition until 1967, with ongoing generational effects of this discrimination on self-esteem.

The other problem is economic exclusion eg the equal wage case which resulted in black stockmen being sacked on mass by cattle station owners.

Quote:

That is a stupidly divisive idea.

Based on our sad history.

But yes, it's important not to introduce two voices (black and non-black) into the constitution, rather advice from blacks outside parliament to assist Parliament in closing the gap.

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Grappler Deep State Feller

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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #1474 - Dec 1^st, 2022 at 6:33pm

Right - now that you've painted yourself into that corner....

"Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice may make representations to parliament and the executive government on matters relating to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples."

Lay out for us exactly what 'matters' relate ONLY to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. The wording indicates that ANY issue that affects them in any way is open to discussion and pressure on Parliament and People, and that means every single law in this land, every single regulation, and every single thing they decide they don't like or think they are entitled to.

What EXACTLY issues that affect them do not affect others, who, of course, will have no voice over that issue? We live in a society where every issue affects others.. nothing exists in isolation or a vacuum... give us some example of Abo only issues.... land rights? Legal rights? Special treatment under law? Rioting rights? Vandalism rights?

This is like gay or tranny rights - nothing but silly demands to just do as they want.

How many times do I have to ask you these simple questions until you answer?

NO!

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #1475 - Dec 1^st, 2022 at 8:57pm

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Dec 1^st, 2022 at 6:33pm:

Right - now that you've painted yourself into that corner....

"Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice may make representations to parliament and the executive government on matters relating to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples."

Lay out for us exactly what 'matters' relate ONLY to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people.

eg, the unemployment, crime and alcoholism ravaging black communities, specifically.

Quote:

The wording indicates that ANY issue that affects them in any way is open to discussion and pressure on Parliament and People,

(cross out "and People"). Well...yes, I suppose that's what the wording says.

Quote:

and that means every single law in this land, every single regulation, and every single thing they decide they don't like or think they are entitled to.

The error in logic there is so glaring I'm surprised you let it stand. The voice will advise Parliament "on matters relating to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples".

Nothing to do with "every single law in this land"; only laws specifically dealing with black communities, given the special circumstances of those communities - manifested in high crime, alcoholism and unemployment rates, aka 'the gap'.

Perhaps you require the above underlined words to be added?

Quote:

What EXACTLY issues that affect them do not affect others, who, of course, will have no voice over that issue?

In short, issues of social dysfunction resulting from living in a black ghetto, outlined above.

Quote:

We live in a society where every issue affects others.. nothing exists in isolation or a vacuum...

True, but most of us live a comfortably long distance away from the 3rd world ghettos the voice is supposed to help fix.

Quote:

give us some example of Abo only issues....

to repeat: issues of social dysfunction resulting from living in a black ghetto, outlined above.

Quote:

land rights? Legal rights? Special treatment under law? Rioting rights? Vandalism rights?

Actually, I reject all those "rights", though of course the first is controversial.

And the notion of "legal rights" is complicated by your Libertarian individual rights/freedom ideology.

eg, I think the right to participate in the nation's economy at above poverty level is more important than the individual's right to maximize his own claims on the nation's output, in a market-based competition for resources.

"Special treatment under law"?

Well, maybe, so long as eradicating a black ghetto is a necessary task for government.

Quote:

This is like gay or tranny rights - nothing but silly demands to just do as they want.

I'm hoping I have shown otherwise...can you spot the difference (hint : consider the gap...)

Quote:

How many times do I have to ask you these simple questions until you answer?

I should have noted Albo's #3 point long ago, and hence sorted those simple questions out long ago.

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Grappler Deep State Feller

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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #1476 - Dec 1^st, 2022 at 9:55pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 1^st, 2022 at 8:57pm:

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Dec 1^st, 2022 at 6:33pm:

Right - now that you've painted yourself into that corner....

"Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice may make representations to parliament and the executive government on matters relating to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples."

Lay out for us exactly what 'matters' relate ONLY to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people.

eg, the unemployment, crime and alcoholism ravaging black communities, specifically.

*sighs* and how long have they had already with all kinds of intervention to resolve those issues? What difference do you think it will make to have a 'voice' when they will not act themselves? Round in circles.

Quote:

The wording indicates that ANY issue that affects them in any way is open to discussion and pressure on Parliament and People,

(cross out "and People"). Well...yes, I suppose that's what the wording says.

Oh - I see - so anything the government does does not affect The people.... **face palms** .. so if they listenj to one side only of any question that does not affect all other sides? Jesus God ......

Quote:

and that means every single law in this land, every single regulation, and every single thing they decide they don't like or think they are entitled to.

The error in logic there is so glaring I'm surprised you let it stand. The voice will advise Parliament "on matters relating to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples".

Once more - so what does NOT affect/relate to ATSIs?

Nothing to do with "every single law in this land"; only laws specifically dealing with black communities, given the special circumstances of those communities - manifested in high crime, alcoholism and unemployment rates, aka 'the gap'.

All answered above - you simply refuse to see.

Perhaps you require the above underlined words to be added?

Quote:

What EXACTLY issues that affect them do not affect others, who, of course, will have no voice over that issue?

In short, issues of social dysfunction resulting from living in a black ghetto, outlined above.

What makes you imagine they are Robinson Crusoe's Black Man Friday in any of that?

Quote:

We live in a society where every issue affects others.. nothing exists in isolation or a vacuum...

True, but most of us live a comfortably long distance away from the 3rd world ghettos the voice is supposed to help fix.

We CHOOSE and ACT so as not to live in the ghettoes.... what is preventing Abos from leaving Las Vegas?

Quote:

give us some example of Abo only issues....

to repeat: issues of social dysfunction resulting from living in a black ghetto, outlined above.

.. and rubbished above ....

Quote:

land rights? Legal rights? Special treatment under law? Rioting rights? Vandalism rights?

Actually, I reject all those "rights", though of course the first is controversial.

Thre is hope for you yet.....

And the notion of "legal rights" is complicated by your Libertarian individual rights/freedom ideology.

eg, I think the right to participate in the nation's economy at above poverty level is more important than the individual's right to maximize his own claims on the nation's output, in a market-based competition for resources.

"Special treatment under law"?

Well, maybe, so long as eradicating a black ghetto is a necessary task for government.

Quote:

This is like gay or tranny rights - nothing but silly demands to just do as they want.

I'm hoping I have shown otherwise...can you spot the difference (hint : consider the gap...)

Quote:

How many times do I have to ask you these simple questions until you answer?

I should have noted Albo's #3 point long ago, and hence sorted those simple questions out long ago.

All repudiated time and time again... you simply refuse to listen to any but the voices in your head already laying down your values and parameters ...

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Gnads

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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #1477 - Dec 2^nd, 2022 at 6:13am