Australian Politics Forum - The question about a voice will be asked...

thegreatdivide

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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #1500 - Dec 5^th, 2022 at 4:34pm

Frank wrote on Dec 5^th, 2022 at 9:21am:

[quote author=AusbetterWorld link=1659098415/1486#1486 date=1670031794]
This sovereignty is a spiritual notion: the ancestral tie between the land, or ‘mother nature’, and the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples who were born therefrom, remain attached thereto, and must one day return thither to be united with our ancestors. This link is the basis of the ownership of the soil, or better, of sovereignty. It has never been ceded or extinguished, and co-exists with the sovereignty of the Crown".

Agreed, I already noted the impossibility of the concept of 'co-sovereignty'.

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Pseudo-mystical fantasy, wrapped in cloth-eared bombast, used to smuggle a legal invention - co-sovereignty - into the constitution.

Correct. But Albo's #3 does no such thing (thus ignoring the Uluru Statement), it simply proposes adding words to the Constitution enabling a black advisory voice to Parliament re matters specific to the black gap.

Harmless enough, even if pointless; at least Noel Pearson's important concept of a JG has entered the debate.

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"Born therefrom and return tither"?? WFT! I want McGowan's Abrignaltorrssaitillaner translator aunty to translate it for her mob. Cheesy

how would she put it?? How would she 'translate' the Statement into Aborigines??

Don't be too harsh....they are merely attempting to achieve legitimacy by imitating the august pomposity of English legalism....

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Frank

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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #1501 - Jan 3^rd, 2023 at 10:38am

If the Voice is only a consultative body - like the hundreds of other existing Aboriginal consultative bodies - , why does it have to be in the Constitution?

Because among its first recommendations would be the recognition of Aboriginal 'First Nations' sovereignty and therefore the need for a treaty.

The Lividia Thorpe camp of Aborigines want these steps first and then the Voice but either way, the Voice is only one of a three step process. The High Court would be called upon to determine whether there were 'First Nations' in Australia in 1788. The Court will affirm it since anything else would be wacist. Once affirmed, a treaty is next.

None of this will have the slightest impact of remote drinking, violence, hideousness. But It will have a huge boost for the influence of the Lividia Thorpe types of Aboriginal activists.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #1502 - Jan 3^rd, 2023 at 12:40pm

Frank wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2023 at 10:38am:

If the Voice is only a consultative body - like the hundreds of other existing Aboriginal consultative bodies - , why does it have to be in the Constitution?

Because among its first recommendations would be the recognition of Aboriginal 'First Nations' sovereignty and therefore the need for a treaty.

The Lividia Thorpe camp of Aborigines want these steps first and then the Voice but either way, the Voice is only one of a three step process. The High Court would be called upon to determine whether there were 'First Nations' in Australia in 1788. The Court will affirm it since anything else would be wacist. Once affirmed, a treaty is next.

None of this will have the slightest impact of remote drinking, violence, hideousness. But It will have a huge boost for the influence of the Lividia Thorpe types of Aboriginal activists.

Yes.

I still don't know which way I'll be voting in the referendum.

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Frank

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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #1503 - Jan 3^rd, 2023 at 1:14pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2023 at 12:40pm:

Frank wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2023 at 10:38am:

If the Voice is only a consultative body - like the hundreds of other existing Aboriginal consultative bodies - , why does it have to be in the Constitution?

Because among its first recommendations would be the recognition of Aboriginal 'First Nations' sovereignty and therefore the need for a treaty.

The Lividia Thorpe camp of Aborigines want these steps first and then the Voice but either way, the Voice is only one of a three step process. The High Court would be called upon to determine whether there were 'First Nations' in Australia in 1788. The Court will affirm it since anything else would be wacist. Once affirmed, a treaty is next.

None of this will have the slightest impact of remote drinking, violence, hideousness. But It will have a huge boost for the influence of the Lividia Thorpe types of Aboriginal activists.

Yes.

I still don't know which way I'll be voting in the referendum.

What? You can't decide if you want political ruin for Australia (yes vote) or just financial (MMT)?

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #1504 - Jan 3^rd, 2023 at 1:25pm

Frank wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2023 at 1:14pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2023 at 12:40pm:

Frank wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2023 at 10:38am:

If the Voice is only a consultative body - like the hundreds of other existing Aboriginal consultative bodies - , why does it have to be in the Constitution?

Because among its first recommendations would be the recognition of Aboriginal 'First Nations' sovereignty and therefore the need for a treaty.

The Lividia Thorpe camp of Aborigines want these steps first and then the Voice but either way, the Voice is only one of a three step process. The High Court would be called upon to determine whether there were 'First Nations' in Australia in 1788. The Court will affirm it since anything else would be wacist. Once affirmed, a treaty is next.

None of this will have the slightest impact of remote drinking, violence, hideousness. But It will have a huge boost for the influence of the Lividia Thorpe types of Aboriginal activists.

Yes.

I still don't know which way I'll be voting in the referendum.

What? You can't decide if you want political ruin for Australia (yes vote) or just financial (MMT)?

The first is tricky; but in fact it's mainstream neoclassical economics which will ensure the black gap ... and entrenched poverty in general - will continue in Oz.

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Grappler Deep State Feller

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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #1505 - Jan 4^th, 2023 at 2:35pm

... that and their own desire to live out in the Ning Nang Nong and demand to continue to do things their outdated way or else.... and from the 'government of all equally' perspective - woe betide the whitey who strikes back or even self-defends or even suggests just leaving them to it in splendid isolation.

Truly madness has overcome this country - Australia Has Fallen!!

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« Last Edit: Jan 4^th, 2023 at 6:20pm by Grappler Deep State Feller »

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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thegreatdivide

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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #1506 - Jan 5^th, 2023 at 10:41am

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Jan 4^th, 2023 at 2:35pm:

... that and their own desire to live out in the Ning Nang Nong and demand to continue to do things their outdated way or else....

Stop trying to find excuses for not introducing a job guarantee

Quote:

and from the 'government of all equally' perspective

Needs a job guarantee, for all...

Quote:

woe betide the whitey who strikes back or even self-defends or even suggests just leaving them to it in splendid isolation.

Can't be done, the modern money-based economy demands integration.

Quote:

Truly madness has overcome this country - Australia Has Fallen!!

The solution is simple:

1. job guarantee

2. education

3. functional communities.

= closing the gap.

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Frank

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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #1507 - Jan 5^th, 2023 at 11:18am

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 5^th, 2023 at 10:41am:

The solution is simple:

1. job guarantee

2. education

3. functional communities.

= closing the gap.

1 is happening only. No Aborigine is denied a job IF HE IS FIT FOR IT.

2. Education is in place already. All that Aboriginde have to do is turn up and participate and.... er.... that's it!

3. D'oh! Start fuggin' functioning, then! Parents, elders, step up and act responsibly.

Well, that was easy, boys and girls. Next week we learn how to split the atom and how to establish workd peace.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #1508 - Jan 5^th, 2023 at 11:26am

Frank wrote on Jan 5^th, 2023 at 11:18am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 5^th, 2023 at 10:41am:

The solution is simple:

1. job guarantee

2. education

3. functional communities.

= closing the gap.

1 is happening only. No Aborigine is denied a job IF HE IS FIT FOR IT.

But that is the problem: the gap means many are not fit for work.

Quote:

2. Education is in place already. All that Aboriginde have to do is turn up and participate and.... er.... that's it!

Education can't happen in dysfunctional, crime-ridden communities.

Quote:

3. D'oh! Start fuggin' functioning, then! Parents, elders, step up and act responsibly.

If you have learnt that to survive you have to resort to crime, or escape into drunken stupor, then taking responsibility is moot - and complex.

Quote:

Well, that was easy, boys and girls. Next week we learn how to split the atom and how to establish workd peace.

Introducing a JG in Oz is infinitely easier than establishing world peace. We already have the example of the CDEP, before it was cancelled by neoliberal market ideologues.

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Captain Caveman

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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #1509 - Jan 5^th, 2023 at 11:30am

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 5^th, 2023 at 10:41am:

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Jan 4^th, 2023 at 2:35pm:

... that and their own desire to live out in the Ning Nang Nong and demand to continue to do things their outdated way or else....

Stop trying to find excuses for not introducing a job guarantee

Quote:

and from the 'government of all equally' perspective

Needs a job guarantee, for all...

Quote:

woe betide the whitey who strikes back or even self-defends or even suggests just leaving them to it in splendid isolation.

Can't be done, the modern money-based economy demands integration.

Quote:

Truly madness has overcome this country - Australia Has Fallen!!

The solution is simple:

1. job guarantee

2. education

3. functional communities.

= closing the gap.

That's all been put in front of them in the past and achieved SFA.

How about mandatory schooling?
Educate them to understand that this society of school and work is valuable to them instead of telling them its white man's way of controlling them.
You wanna sit way out bumfuk. That's your choice, but there's not many jobs out there so you may have to travel for work, and being out there you may have to go to mines. Nothing shameful in that.

I had nothing handed to me.
My parents are carrnts.
I still managed to get educated, get a good career and pay my own way with zero handouts.
If I can do it, anyone can.
Stop handing out participation awards and make it so these lazy fkkkers have to help themselves.
That ain't racist at all.
It's what has to happen.
And if they reply with "farrk you whitey" then cut them off from anything white man has given them.
You wanna live like your precious elders of the past, no worries.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #1510 - Jan 5^th, 2023 at 12:00pm

Captain Caveman wrote on Jan 5^th, 2023 at 11:30am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 5^th, 2023 at 10:41am:

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Jan 4^th, 2023 at 2:35pm:

... that and their own desire to live out in the Ning Nang Nong and demand to continue to do things their outdated way or else....

Stop trying to find excuses for not introducing a job guarantee

Quote:

and from the 'government of all equally' perspective

Needs a job guarantee, for all...

Quote:

woe betide the whitey who strikes back or even self-defends or even suggests just leaving them to it in splendid isolation.

Can't be done, the modern money-based economy demands integration.

Quote:

Truly madness has overcome this country - Australia Has Fallen!!

The solution is simple:

1. job guarantee

2. education

3. functional communities.

= closing the gap.

That's all been put in front of them in the past and achieved SFA.

Guaranteed employment via the CDEP (1977-2004) was indeed an example of a job guarantee which reduced crime and alcoholism in communities until it was cancelled by Neoliberal market ideologues.

Quote:

How about mandatory schooling?
Educate them to understand that this society of school and work is valuable to them instead of telling them its white man's way of controlling them.

Yes, but the current egregious community dysfunction (the gap) has to be reduced sufficiently first, by introducing a JG for those willing and able, to improve community standards.

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You wanna sit way out bumfuk. That's your choice,

No it's not; community dysfunction is a condition that destroys choice.

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but there's not many jobs out there so you may have to travel for work, and being out there you may have to go to mines. Nothing shameful in that.

The community dysfunction has to be ameliorated first.

Quote:

I had nothing handed to me.
My parents are carrnts.
I still managed to get educated, get a good career and pay my own way with zero handouts.
If I can do it, anyone can.

Nonsense, you might be a genius; where others might have learnt you have to steal to get what you need or want.

Quote:

Stop handing out participation awards and make it so these lazy fkkkers have to help themselves.
That ain't racist at all.

We smashed their culture, we have to pick up the pieces, via successful considered intervention, to create functional communities within a money economy.

Quote:

It's what has to happen.

Yes (the bolded).

Quote:

And if they reply with "farrk you whitey" then cut them off from anything white man has given them.
You wanna live like your precious elders of the past, no worries.

A hunter-gatherer culture is incompatible with the modern world.

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Grappler Deep State Feller

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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #1511 - Jan 5^th, 2023 at 12:01pm

Yup - nobody ever handed me anything, including any inheritance. I look at the ex's oldest son - one inheritance already from granny, set for another from mum and another from his wife's very rich dad who is very ill.

Thinks it's all his own work... Roll Eyes

never worked a day in his life....

Deserving a fair go ain't got nothin' to do with it .......

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #1512 - Jan 5^th, 2023 at 12:10pm

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Jan 5^th, 2023 at 12:01pm:

Yup - nobody ever handed me anything, including any inheritance. I look at the ex's oldest son - one inheritance already from granny, set for another from mum and another from his wife's very rich dad who is very ill.

Another blind indivdualist who thinks his own experience of life, and subsequent achievements, proves that the same will necessarily apply to everyone else.

Quote:

Thinks it's all his own work... Roll Eyes

never worked a day in his life....

The CDEP participants were only too willing to give it a go.

Quote:

Deserving a fair go ain't got nothin' to do with it .......

The responsibility to engage - and access - above poverty work has everything to do with it.

It's a two-way responsibility shared by the nation and the individual.

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Grappler Deep State Feller Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 85220 Always was always will be HOME Gender:	Re: The question about a voice will be asked... Reply #1513 - Jan 5^th, 2023 at 12:14pm You are hilarious...... clearly you know not one thing about people. I ask again - are you autistic?
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Grappler Deep State Feller

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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #1514 - Jan 5^th, 2023 at 12:16pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 5^th, 2023 at 12:10pm:

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Jan 5^th, 2023 at 12:01pm:

Yup - nobody ever handed me anything, including any inheritance. I look at the ex's oldest son - one inheritance already from granny, set for another from mum and another from his wife's very rich dad who is very ill.

Another blind indivdualist who thinks his own experience of life, and subsequent achievements, proves that the same will necessarily apply to everyone else.

Anyone can achieve.

Quote:

Thinks it's all his own work... Roll Eyes

never worked a day in his life....

The CDEP participants were only too willing to give it a go.

Until the money tree dried up and fell over.

Quote:

Deserving a fair go ain't got nothin' to do with it .......

The responsibility to engage - and access - above poverty work has everything to do with it.

Then get them to work.

It's a two-way responsibility shared by the nation and the individual.

Then get them to do their part.. others will be along shortly to correct your thinking. One had a shot just a few posts ago and you sailed straight past it as usual in your ideological blindness.

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Poll
Question: Will you vote for a separate Aboriginal Voice in Parliament?
YES 11 (28.9%) NO 27 (71.1%) Total votes: 38 « Created by: Grappler Deep State Feller on: Jul 30^th, 2022 at 7:27pm »