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Poll Poll
Question: Will you vote for a separate Aboriginal Voice in Parliament?

YES    
  11 (28.9%)
NO    
  27 (71.1%)




Total votes: 38
« Created by: Grappler Deep State Feller on: Jul 30th, 2022 at 7:27pm »

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The question about a voice will be asked... (Read 56131 times)
Boris
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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #1335 - Oct 19th, 2022 at 6:42am
 
They say No

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thegreatdivide
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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #1336 - Oct 19th, 2022 at 10:22am
 
Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Oct 18th, 2022 at 6:46pm:
Now - for the last time - how would you propose to impose this system of international law when nations simply will not accept it but will insist on their own law?


By education (as I am doing here): "civilization is a race between education and catastrophe" HG Wells.

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How do you propose to keep peace? By imposition of force - i.e - going to war?


No, by rule of law which outlaws war. 

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Madness - pure madness.


War is madness.

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Are you retarded or something? 


No, I believe rationality will triumph over instinct...over time. 

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This is like your endless argument about somehow creating heaven on earth in which all will prosper as the means to lift the Aborigines out of their squalor etc.


Sustainable prosperity for all is a necessity if human civilization is to survive on our finite planet.   

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They will simply not abide by your rules... so stop ranting at me and calling me things you have no right to.


I here to educate those capable of learning; indeed a majority of delegates present at the founding of the UN in 1946 wanted to deny access to the veto by the great powers.

The battle for the soul of the UN is ongoing. 

Your blind instinctive "freedom" delusion is THE problem   

Quote:
You've been challenged to actually go out there and create these things to cure the ABOs (Alleged Bloody Originals), and you do nothing but sit and snipe  over the same thing over and over.


I point to the ONLY solution to close the gap: guaranteed employment.

Quote:
Clearly it is you who is the insane one.


Said the blind man....
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Grappler Deep State Feller
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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #1337 - Oct 19th, 2022 at 12:10pm
 
I cannot reason with this man.............
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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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thegreatdivide
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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #1338 - Oct 19th, 2022 at 12:48pm
 
Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Oct 19th, 2022 at 12:10pm:
I cannot reason with this man.............


Of course not, you are blinded by instinct, and immune to logic and reason. 

It's the human condition.

So....back to war in Ukraine and entrenched black poverty in Oz, both of which you are complicit in.
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Frank
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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #1339 - Oct 19th, 2022 at 2:53pm
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 19th, 2022 at 10:22am:
Your blind instinctive "freedom" delusion is THE problem   
...
I point to the ONLY solution to close the gap: guaranteed employment.


USSR - the land of guaranteed employment and guaranteed no freedom:

Shortly after the revolution, Tsarist restictions on movement were lifted by the 1918 ‘Declaration of Rights of Working and Exploited People’, which also legalised vagrancy. However, over the next few years these rights were gradually eroded.

1926 — nomadic people, such as Russian Romani were forcibly settled. In 1933, 5,000 ‘gypsies’ were deported from Moscow to labour camps in Siberia.

1928 — military conscription formally introduced.

1930s — all scientific research into homelessness and vagrancy was ceased.

1932 — workers who abandoned their place of work were to be deprived of coupons for food and other goods, and deprived of their right to an enterprise-provided flat.

1932 — the propiska system was established — a registration stamp of your place of residence in your internal passport. A change of place of residence (even within a single settlement) required the submission of one’s passport for propiska within twenty-four hours. Employers also required proof of propiska. Violating the propiska resulted in a fine, and multiple violations in 6 months “corrective” labour.

1934 — the ‘Exemplary Charter of the Agricultural Cooperative’ forbade peasants from leaving their place of residence (yes, like literal serfdom).

1960 — the RSFSR Criminal Code article 209 established the criminal penalty for persistent vagrancy or begging as imprisonment for up to two years or corrective labour from six months to one year. Repeat offenders were punishable with imprisonment for up to four years. Article 198 introduced penalties for ‘violation of passport rules’. The militia had the power to evict any unregistered person from the locality twice, giving him or her twenty-four hours to leave on each occasion. If people came back a third time, they were liable to a one-year prison sentence.

1961 — the decree ‘On Intensifying the Struggle Against Persons Who Avoid Socially Useful Work and Lead an Antisocial, Parasitic Way of Life’ threatened those who derived “non-labour income from the use of land plots, automobiles or housing, or commit other anti-social acts that enable them to lead a parasitic way of life” to banishment from two to five years.

During the 1920s, people without fixed occupation and registered dwelling were targeted and expelled from cities, especially from Moscow and Leningrad. This was followed by other decrees such as the 1948 ‘On Deportation to the Distant Regions of Persons Persistently Evading Labour Duty and Leading Antisocial Parasitic Ways of Life’, and the 1951 ‘On Measures to Fight Antisocial Parasitic Elements’. The result was there were no ghettoes as such, instead cities had belts around them with concentrations of ex-prisoners, expelled vagrants and ‘idlers’ — colloquially known as “behind the 101st kilometre”.

The propiska is key to understanding homelessness in the Soviet Union. One could not simply move houses in the Soviet Union, you had to get propiska. Propiska is your dwelling registration. You could get registration at birth, or later in life by close relatives (though this was subject to veto). Marriage did not automatically entitle you to your partner’s propiska (however divorce could lead you to losing it!), and if you were returning from a period of absence (such as prison) you would not automatically be re-granted propiska. You could also lose your propiska if you were away for six months.

What happened if you did not have propiska? Millions of workers lived for years in work-provided hostels, mud huts and trailers. As late as 1989, 21 per cent of single people in urban areas lived in hostels, and 29 per cent of those who lived separately from their families. The housing rights of such workers could be extremely weak. When they settled in enterprise hostels, they would be offered (at least initially) only temporary registration, making them particularly vulnerable to eviction for bad behaviour or at the end of their contract. In Moscow, for example, limitchiki (migrant workers with temporary resident permits) lived in workers’ hostels on a renewable one-year propiska. Any misdemeanour (or, for women, pregnancy and the birth of a child) could mean the end of tenancy.

Yuri Lotman captured the cultural zeitgeist towards such living arrangements as “the centre of an abnormal world”, a “false home” and an “anti-home”. It doesn’t take much convincing to see that living in a hostel for years, at constant threat of eviction by your boss, would qualify you as homeless under some Western definitions.
https://bearkunin.medium.com/soviet-union-facts-and-fictions-part-2-homelessness
-famine-and-food-cada7f20784f#:~:text=1960%20%E2%80%94%20the%20RSFSR%20Criminal%
20Code,for%20up%20to%20four%20years.
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Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.
 
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Frank
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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #1340 - Oct 19th, 2022 at 2:54pm
 
>have zero unemployment
The source for this is From Farm to Factory by Robert Allen. The link provided is to a summary of the book, and this summary includes the statement “By the 1950s, structural unemployment was eliminated and growth slowed down as capital accumulation ran into diminishing returns.” Please note that structural unemployment is different from zero unemployment. In From Farm to Factory, Allen explains how structural unemployment was very high in the 1930s as farm work became mechanised. This created a large surplus of rural labour, which was redeployed into industrial sectors through the command economy. By the 1950s, this process had largely completed and growth began to slow down. He is not referring to general unemployment.

Detailed unemployment information in the USSR is hard to come by, as (like many stats in the USSR) the USSR liked to play with numbers. The Soviet definition of unemployment included all those who were able-bodied but not in school or work. This included stay-at-home mum’s for example, making it rather useless for comparison with a more standard Western definition of those ‘looking for work but without work’. In 1990 Goskomstat, the State Committee for Statistics, released an official unemployment record using the ILO’s definition (akin to the West’s). This placed unemployment at two million.

Studies have been undertaken to examine unemployment in the Soviet Union, and unsurprisingly they find numbers of unemployment either not-out-of-line with Western unemployment figures, or significantly higher.
It must also be noted that reaching full employment was not necessarily a good thing for the workers. From the late 1930s to 1956, workers who wanted to quit their job without authorisation were subject to criminal penalties and imprisonment. You might not like your boss right now, but imagine how much worse it would be if you could be sent to prison for trying to quit! Some studies estimate between 8–22 million people were charged with unauthorised job changes (Stephenson, Crossing the Line, 78).

It can also be noted that even if employed, citizens of the USSR were not necessarily doing socially productive work. In 1981, the total time spent shopping and queuing in the USSR was estimated at 37 million hours a year, or roughly 190 hours per adult person, which is close to the amount of working time lost per year per capita due to unemployment in a country like Denmark. (Hans Aage, Soviet Wage Theory And Distribution Debates, 18)
Ibid
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thegreatdivide
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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #1341 - Oct 19th, 2022 at 3:50pm
 
Frank wrote on Oct 19th, 2022 at 2:53pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 19th, 2022 at 10:22am:
Your blind instinctive "freedom" delusion is THE problem   
...
I point to the ONLY solution to close the gap: guaranteed employment.


USSR - the land of guaranteed employment and guaranteed no freedom:


Bad example. You can introduce a job guarantee in a democracy.

All the resources are available.

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Boris
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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #1342 - Oct 19th, 2022 at 3:59pm
 
All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.
- Orwell Animal Farm
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thegreatdivide
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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #1343 - Oct 19th, 2022 at 4:19pm
 
Boris wrote on Oct 19th, 2022 at 3:59pm:
All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.
- Orwell Animal Farm


Waffle. Orwell was a democratic socialist.

Debate the issue, namely above-poverty participation by all in the economy.
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« Last Edit: Oct 19th, 2022 at 6:21pm by thegreatdivide »  
 
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Frank
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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #1344 - Oct 19th, 2022 at 7:03pm
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 19th, 2022 at 3:50pm:
Frank wrote on Oct 19th, 2022 at 2:53pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 19th, 2022 at 10:22am:
Your blind instinctive "freedom" delusion is THE problem   
...
I point to the ONLY solution to close the gap: guaranteed employment.


USSR - the land of guaranteed employment and guaranteed no freedom:


Bad example. You can introduce a job guarantee in a democracy.

All the resources are available.


Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

You are your own parody, Polly.

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Grappler Deep State Feller
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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #1345 - Oct 19th, 2022 at 7:43pm
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 19th, 2022 at 4:19pm:
Boris wrote on Oct 19th, 2022 at 3:59pm:
All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.
- Orwell Animal Farm


Waffle. Orwell was a democratic socialist.

Debate the issue, namely above-poverty participation by all in the economy.


Where are the jobs way over yonder which are good enough and involve little enough hassle to draw your average beach-living Indigene away from the fish, sandy beaches, drinking rum every night with house and medical treatment supplied in the warm tropics and so forth, while receiving the 'rent' every fortnight as a right for being unemployed?

Only a White Man or a Yellow Man would try to destroy such an idyllic lifestyle that most would kill for ...
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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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thegreatdivide
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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #1346 - Oct 19th, 2022 at 8:23pm
 
Frank wrote on Oct 19th, 2022 at 7:03pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 19th, 2022 at 3:50pm:
Frank wrote on Oct 19th, 2022 at 2:53pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 19th, 2022 at 10:22am:
Your blind instinctive "freedom" delusion is THE problem   
...
I point to the ONLY solution to close the gap: guaranteed employment.


USSR - the land of guaranteed employment and guaranteed no freedom:


Bad example. You can introduce a job guarantee in a democracy.

All the resources are available.


Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

You are your own parody, Polly.



Blind and dumb; there is sufficient useful work to be done for all to participate in the economy, you evil neoliberal ideologue.

Orwell would have chewed you up and spit you out.
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Grappler Deep State Feller
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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #1347 - Oct 20th, 2022 at 4:16pm
 
Best we wait until the fire brigade put the voice proposal out and then we'll see what's left of it. Cool  Cool  Cool
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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Boris
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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #1348 - Oct 21st, 2022 at 6:37am
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 19th, 2022 at 4:19pm:
Boris wrote on Oct 19th, 2022 at 3:59pm:
All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.
- Orwell Animal Farm


Waffle. Orwell was a democratic socialist.

Debate the issue, namely above-poverty participation by all in the economy.


In the Jungle some survive and some don't

That's life

deal with it.

The answer to the question is NO
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Boris
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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #1349 - Oct 21st, 2022 at 12:52pm
 
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