Frank wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2022 at 9:17am:


Not related at all? If there was no gap, would the Uluru Statement have been created?

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Good point; so ...how do we close the gap?  [correct answer: a Job Guarantee.....]

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I agree; it's a bit like the fantasy of "individual natural rights" claimed to exist by Libertarians.

Let's look again at the Uluru Statement: 

"We, gathered at the 2017 National Constitutional Convention, coming from all points of the southern sky, make this statement from the heart:

Our Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander tribes were the first sovereign Nations of the Australian continent and its adjacent islands, and possessed it under our own laws and customs. This our ancestors did, according to the reckoning of our culture, from the Creation, according to the common law from ‘time immemorial’, and according to science more than 60,000 years ago.

This sovereignty is a spiritual notion: the ancestral tie between the land, or ‘mother nature’, and the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples who were born therefrom, remain attached thereto, and must one day return thither to be united with our ancestors. This link is the basis of the ownership of the soil, or better, of sovereignty. It has never been ceded or extinguished, and co-exists with the sovereignty of the Crown".

Interesting concept; 'co-sovereignty', which appears to address your objection of a "fantasy of First Nations in the basic law of the land".   But of course co-sovereignty can't exist (which is why international law can't co-exist with national sovereignty....). 

"How could it be otherwise? That peoples possessed a land for sixty millennia and this sacred link disappears from world history in merely the last two hundred years"?

The sovereignty disappears under the Oz constitution, not the history ("sacred" or otherwise...)

"With substantive constitutional change and structural reform, we believe this ancient sovereignty can shine through as a fuller expression of Australia’s nationhood".

Recognition of prior occupation does not require "substantive change" to the Oz constitution.

And you can't have 'co-sovereignty', only specified spheres of government (local, state, national, international).

"Proportionally, we are the most incarcerated people on the planet. We are not an innately criminal people. Our children are aliened from their families at unprecedented rates. This cannot be because we have no love for them. And our youth languish in detention in obscene numbers. They should be our hope for the future."

Ah...the answer to my first question to you above: the voice IS related to the gap.

"These dimensions of our crisis tell plainly the structural nature of our problem. This is the torment of our powerlessness."

I would refer to this as a systemic problem ie the structural problem in the current NAIRU economic system.

"We seek constitutional reforms to empower our people and take a rightful place in our own country. When we have power over our destiny our children will flourish. They will walk in two worlds and their culture will be a gift to their country."

Impossible if we are referring to a hunter-gatherer culture. 

"We call for the establishment of a First Nations Voice enshrined in the Constitution. Makarrata is the culmination of our agenda: the coming together after a struggle. It captures our aspirations for a fair and truthful relationship with the people of Australia and a better future for our children based on justice and self-determination."

As pointed out above, 'co-sovereignty' cannot exist, though an advisory voice - to close the gap - can exist. Substantive constitutional change is not required; and I believe Albo's point #3 is NOT 'substantive change', as it  does NOT ask for 'co-sovereignty'. 

"We seek a Makarrata Commission to supervise a process of agreement-making between governments and First Nations and truth-telling about our history.

In 1967 we were counted, in 2017 we seek to be heard. We leave base camp and start our trek across this vast country . We invite you to walk with us in a movement of the Australian people for a better future"


I think I have identified the problem in the Uluru Statement: the notion of 'co-sovereignty' cannot exist, as a basis for rule of law, in the Oz constitution. 

Gnads wrote on Dec 4^th, 2022 at 2:56pm:


Er... that's not debate; pick ONE point and show why it's "shyte".

Or concede defeat.....

"If there was no gap, would the Uluru Statement have been created? "

YES - because of the simple delusion that they still own the place, even though the rules of ownership have changed and they are just as welcome as anyone else to purchase a plot of land.

You cannot have two different standards of ownership in a single country - a house divided against itself cannot stand.

Giving each individual a plot to compensate for past loss is fine... but not entire swathes of land.

That which you allow to slip away today by your inaction will not be there tomorrow.

This nation has NO need to negotiate with them... they have received and are receiving the benefits of its civilisation and largesse and have the same rights as everyone else and then some......

There is NO requirement to revert to some ancient and outworn tribal ownership by force and violence and genocide...

Gnads wrote on Dec 4^th, 2022 at 6:46pm:


This sounds familiar - Lefty claimed to 'debate' - what he did instead was rubbish others....

Fe Fi Fo Fum - I smell the blood of a Trollish Mun... be he alive or be he dead, I'll grind his bones to make my bread....

NEVER touch the crosses!  NEVER! Lefty touched the crosses of the very demon that lives within each of us and has aroused the sleeping giant..... tread softly when you seek to confront and continually go around in circles to try to confuse the discussion and guide it into your way of thinking... people are smarter than that....  I smell the blood of a Trollish Mun....

The NO vote is already established... not one person I meet and talk with will vote YES - and that includes Aboriginals who all think it is bullsht ....

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2022 at 11:43am:


Who created the Uluru statement?

I bet it wasn't the people that are suffering under "the gap".

It was the 250 unelected people/activists who come from all parts of the country except where the gap exists.

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2022 at 11:43am:


Pseudo-mystical fantasy, wrapped in cloth-eared bombast, used to smuggle a legal invention - co-sovereignty - into the constitution.

"Born therefrom and return tither"??  WFT!   I want McGowan's Abrignaltorrssaitillaner translator aunty to translate it for her mob.    how would she put it??  How would she 'translate' the Statement into Aborigines??

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Dec 4^th, 2022 at 11:32pm:


But it still begs the question, would the vulture cultures be so persistent, if the gap didn't exist, a gap noted in the Uluru statement:

"Proportionally, we are the most incarcerated people on the planet. We are not an innately criminal people. Our children are aliened from their families at unprecedented rates. This cannot be because we have no love for them.And our youth languish in detention in obscene numbers. They should be our hope for the future."

Note their inability to understand why this pernicious gap exists.

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Are you still debating me? I already pointed out the error of the concept of 'co-sovereignty' expressed in the Uluru Statement:

"We seek constitutional reforms to empower our people and take a rightful place in our own country. When we have power over our destiny our children will flourish. They will walk in two worlds and their culture will be a gift to their country".

What culture? The h-g economy on which the culture was based is gone forever. 

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Agreed.

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Don't worry... (be happy...) The Oz parliament isn't going anywhere...

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We disagree, of course. A Job Guarantee for ALL Australians would ensure the 'benefits of civilization" for all; and as for the "nation's largesse"...well... it's not justly shared, by a long shot. 

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Agreed.

So just open your mind a little more...to close the gap.