Australian Politics Forum - a referendum we actually need

Grappler Deep State Feller

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Re: a referendum we actually need
Reply #150 - Sep 12^th, 2022 at 11:46am

Kat wrote on Sep 12^th, 2022 at 11:13am:

Gnads wrote on Sep 12^th, 2022 at 10:21am:

The fictitious gender pay gap

.... now you're pedalling a "black gap" as a reason for the duplication of representation to Parliament.

everything you're barrowing here is race based bullshyte.

Well, no. It's anything but 'fictitious'.

It's not universal, by any means - I've worked with women in some of my jobs and we've
received the same wage for the same work.

But it DOES exist in some fields - mostly 'professional', for some reason.

Follow the arguments and the figures - they tell the whole story.

As long as people are paid what is required for the job - they cannot complain that they are suffering any 'wage gap' because they do a Lisa Wilkinson and proclaim that they are being treated badly for having negotiated only $1.8m as opposed to a bloke negotiating $2m for the same job... paid journo rates and they'd be on maybe $2-3k a week.

NOWHERE is anyone legally paid less for the same job - and if you wish to look at sectors - women far outweigh men in earnings and super in the nursing business, for a start, and receive massive preference there as well.

Are you arguing for equal payment there across the board?

The figures real show that it is men who are paid an hourly rate less than women overall. Next!

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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thegreatdivide

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Re: a referendum we actually need
Reply #151 - Sep 12^th, 2022 at 11:49am

Kat wrote on Sep 12^th, 2022 at 11:13am:

Gnads wrote on Sep 12^th, 2022 at 10:21am:

The fictitious gender pay gap

.... now you're pedalling a "black gap" as a reason for the duplication of representation to Parliament.

everything you're barrowing here is race based bullshyte.

Well, no. It's anything but 'fictitious'.

It's not universal, by any means - I've worked with women in some of my jobs and we've
received the same wage for the same work.

But it DOES exist in some fields - mostly 'professional', for some reason.

The feminized nature of the low-paid caring professions (child care, health and age care) is also a factor in '"the gender pay gap" (ie men on average earn more than women).

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Grappler Deep State Feller

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Re: a referendum we actually need
Reply #152 - Sep 12^th, 2022 at 11:51am

"In any case we need to close the gap...which you of course deny even exists:"

Another ridiculous and presumptuous statement signifying your lack of connection with reality and your inability too distinguish between rhetoric and reality.

Nobody says there is no gap - the real issue is WHY there is and remains a gap despite billions of dollars and decades of effort.... when people CHOOSE to live a Gap - that is their personal choice and nobody else's.

As for Indigenous incarceration they just need to accept personal sovereignty and choose to not engage in criminal actions...

I've invited you before to get out there in the Outback and go around selling your ideas to the Cheers - see if you come back in one piece and an unchanged person.

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Gnads

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Re: a referendum we actually need
Reply #153 - Sep 12^th, 2022 at 12:56pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 11^th, 2022 at 5:07pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 11^th, 2022 at 4:27pm:

So whether Australian political parties can cater for you depends on the colour of your skin. Is this the "fact" you are asking me to refute?

Yes. Obviously Oz political parties are failing to eradicate the (black) gap.

Quote:

Why did you edit out of your post the bit about the political parties not catering to people of certain skin colours?

Because you apparently cannot cope with more than one idea at a time....the 2nd point being:

"whereas non-blacks are catered for by centre Left and centre Right parties who fight it out over disadvantage within the non-black community".

Interestingly, there is also a gap - between rich and poor - in the non-black community, but the political parties DO address ('fight it out') this issue, meaning the political contest is NOT race-based , cf the black gap which IS race based; eg non blacks have a ten-year longer life span than blacks...aka 'the gap'.

Quote:

Why did you edit out of your post the bit about the political parties not catering to people of certain skin colours?

Explained above, your capacity to consider more than one idea at a time is obviously severely challenged.

So after I took it one line at a time, lo and behold you have joined the debate...

Quote:

You almost said something, but then you got scared of your own words. You're not exactly the bravest little pink, are you?

Addressed ...and refuted above.

Absolute bullshye..... Bob Hawke made this statement 35 years ago ....

"By 1990, no Australian child will be living in poverty,"

the then-prime minister told Labor's election campaign launch on June 23, 1987.

So was Hawke only referring to non Indigenous children?

Or was he referring to all Australian children?

2 years ago the Australian Council of Social Service & the UNSW Sydney did a study that found out of 4.7million children 17.7% of all Australian children under 15 i.e. 774,000 of them are living in poverty.

https://apo.org.au/node/276246

All Australian children ..... NO RACE GAP.

Of that 4.7 million children 5.9% or 278,000 are ATSI.

Not all of those ATSI children are living in poverty.

You see where the numbers are going?

So if you applied a similar % of the 17.7% "all" figure you'd have 49,000 ATSI children living in poverty.

The issue needs to be tackled nationally as a whole ..... not based on race.

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"When you are dead, you do not know you are dead. It's only painful and difficult for others. The same applies when you are stupid." ~ Ricky Gervais

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Gnads

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Re: a referendum we actually need
Reply #154 - Sep 12^th, 2022 at 1:01pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 12^th, 2022 at 11:00am:

Gnads wrote on Sep 12^th, 2022 at 10:21am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 10^th, 2022 at 10:39am:

Gnads wrote on Sep 10^th, 2022 at 9:50am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 10^th, 2022 at 9:07am:

Gnads wrote on Sep 10^th, 2022 at 8:49am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 10^th, 2022 at 8:32am:

freediver wrote on Sep 9^th, 2022 at 9:55pm:

Both ideas seem to have the same problem - lack of detail. And both ideas lack detail because no-one likes what they see, if they ever get to see it.

see how conservatives fuss about the letter of the law;

a voice is just that, an advice from black communities to Parliament - which may or may not be taken; and removal of the UK monarch as head of state in Oz. (The issue of electing an Oz head of state is minor, though people think their "freedom" is at stake)

Phark me hooray - they already have a voice & the mechanisms to be heard in Parliament ...

No they have c 15 separate voices (according to you) in Parliament, displaying the usual L-R divide.

Quote:

that's what 15 plus elected Aboriginal MPs and Senators are there for.......

how does this continually escape you?

Addressed above. A consensus voice as opposed to the 15 separate voices currently in Parliament.

Quote:

They do not need a duplication or a non elected voice directly to PARLIAMENT.

The voice would represent a 'black party' (though without actually existing as a party in parliament), as the ALP represents the voice of the Oz centre left, for exmple.

Quote:

It's a nonsense.

Refuted above.

Your refutation isn't worth squat.

Does everyone else get a consensus voice?

The point is blacks need a 'consensus voice' to advise parliament, so long as the gap exists; whereas non-blacks are catered for, by centre Left and centre Right parties who fight it out over disadvantage within the non-black community.

Quote:

Or does the plethora of separate voices above the Aboriginal 15 ..... all they have to make do with? Roll Eyes

What you say is a discriminatory race based notion.... and not workable.

Addressed above; as long as a black 'gap' exists, we ARE dealing with a "race-based notion".

Quote:

It's nothing more than symbolic appeasement based on race.

Refuted above - if no black gap existed, there would be no need for a voice, symbolic or not.

The fictitious gender pay gap ....

Not ficticious, most women are employed in underpaid caring professions, hence "the gender pay gap", and all the flow-on effects: super, housing, poverty levels.

Quote:

now you're pedalling a "black gap" as a reason for the duplication of representation to Parliament.

Yes, a voice may help to identify the nature of the problem which thus far have proved intractable.

Quote:

everything you're barrowing here is race based bullshyte.

So long as a 'black gap' exists, necessary solutions ARE 'race-based'.

Here's where you're still wrong ..... they are not underpaid.

They are paid for hours worked.

What they may be is "under employed". Not enough hours.

There are many males in that sort of employment as well.

CASUAL/PART TIME & UNDER EMPLOYED.

It isn't under paid ... unless the employer is stooping to breaking the law.

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"When you are dead, you do not know you are dead. It's only painful and difficult for others. The same applies when you are stupid." ~ Ricky Gervais

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Gnads

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Re: a referendum we actually need
Reply #155 - Sep 12^th, 2022 at 1:04pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 12^th, 2022 at 11:44am:

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Sep 12^th, 2022 at 10:49am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 12^th, 2022 at 10:08am:

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Sep 11^th, 2022 at 8:36pm:

Why would that be?

Please Explain?

Why is it 'troll schills' who end with a question?

What makes you think that?

Is it not more likely and most likely that they raise questions so as to make you think about the subject matter?

Is this not instead a way of your getting out from under the terrible burden of actually answering to the issue?

Not in fraudiver's case..

Now you both need to acknowledge the usefulness of a consensus, black, race-based voice to advise parliament, while the black gap exists.

No way, Jose` - they already have more representation than they need - what they need is the willingness to get out of 'living their way' or go that way exclusively without us, and take their chances.

In any case we need to close the gap...which you of course deny even exists:

https://www.iwgia.org/en/news/4344-aboriginal-people-in-australia-the-most-impri...

Aboriginal people in Australia: the most imprisoned people on Earth

HOW we close the gap is up for debate; but the idea of blacks reverting to the hunter gatherer culture in modern Oz is obviously absurd.

btw, blacks didn't display the social dysfunction pre 1770s they are now experiencing...consider: why is that?

Quote:

I 'need' to acknowledge no such thing... is it a racist, Apartheidist lie from start to finish and has no beneficial outcomes ...

Well, given you deny the black gap exists, we have this typical GIGO proposition from you.

Quote:

I'd like to see the one time in my life, as a 'White' - that I've been catered to.... FFS...

If you are 'working class', the ALP is 'here to help' (!...except the ALP has turned into a neoliberal toad, so you are abandoned..); if you are small business or wealthy, you are "catered to" by the Coalition.

Quote:

This country needs to stop right now in its tracks and get itself back on the rails....and the first step, as I told Albo pre-election - is to get away from the politics of division and the policies of exclusion.... clearly Albo is incapable of listening... I cannot reason with this man ....

I feel your pain...he rejected my copy of 'The Deficit Myth' which actually contains the key to allowing re-establishment and enlargement of the highly successful CDEP trashed by the neoliberal toad Howard

Quote:

You cannot, by definition, include one small group by excluding the majority.

Get over it.

An advisory - presumbly consensus - black voice to parliament (existing outside parliamnet), which may assist in closing the gap, is NOT equivalent to 'including one small group by excluding the majority", because the proposed voice will exist outside parliament.

more Deadly Choices ey? Grin

Stop being a patronising excuse maker.

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"When you are dead, you do not know you are dead. It's only painful and difficult for others. The same applies when you are stupid." ~ Ricky Gervais

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thegreatdivide

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Re: a referendum we actually need
Reply #156 - Sep 12^th, 2022 at 1:11pm

Gnads wrote on Sep 12^th, 2022 at 1:01pm:

Here's where you're still wrong ..... they are not underpaid.

Yes they are, that's why age care workers are leaving in droves.

Quote:

They are paid for hours worked.

..and full time pay is inadequate, for the skills required.

Quote:

What they may be is "under employed". Not enough hours.

That too.....

Quote:

There are many males in that sort of employment as well.

(guick google):

"Male workers currently account for 13.0% of the residential and 11.2% of the community aged care workforces".28 Feb 2019

Quote:

CASUAL/PART TIME & UNDER EMPLOYED.

It isn't under paid ... unless the employer is stooping to breaking the law.

Involuntary underemployment is another topic; low full-time wages in the caring professions is the major cause of the "gender pay gap" i

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Boris Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4067 Gender:	Re: a referendum we actually need Reply #157 - Sep 12^th, 2022 at 1:24pm Imprisoned because of crimes committed They just need to stop breaking the laws
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thegreatdivide

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Re: a referendum we actually need
Reply #158 - Sep 12^th, 2022 at 1:28pm

Gnads wrote on Sep 12^th, 2022 at 1:04pm: