Australian Politics Forum - a referendum we actually need

Frank

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Re: a referendum we actually need
Reply #225 - Sep 13^th, 2022 at 9:31am

mothra wrote on Sep 12^th, 2022 at 10:13pm:

I've made many points, Frank. I'm not listing them for you because you're too lazy to read back and naturally assume you have some sort of authority over me.

Get bent.

No you did not. You verballed Petersen, like Newman, than dismissed him as not worth listening to. You did not engage with any of the points he made because, like Newman, you won't budge from claiming men, no matter what evidence is presented to you.

You have made no counter-points. You have not even tried to show how men created the pay gap you insist exists as a male construct for the purposes of domination.

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Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.

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Frank

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Re: a referendum we actually need
Reply #226 - Sep 13^th, 2022 at 9:40am

Newman: So it seems to a lot of women that

they still being dominated and excluded

, to quote your words back to you.

Peterson: It does seem that way. But multivariate analysis of the pay gap indicate that it doesn’t exist.

Newman: But that’s not true, is it? That 9 percent pay gap, that’s a gap between median hourly earnings between men and women. That exists.

Peterson: Yes. But there’s multiple reasons for that. One of them is gender, but that’s not the only reason. If you’re a social scientist worth your salt, you never do a univariate analysis. You say women in aggregate are paid less than men. Okay. Well then we break its down by age; we break it down by occupation; we break it down by interest; we break it down by personality.

https://scrapsfromtheloft.com/psychology/jordan-petersons-channel-4-interview-ca
thy-newman-transcript/

The first 'doesn't exist refers to the 'it' which is in red.

What does exist is the 9% gap (which was not the 'it' in the first line). That gap exists BUT NOT because of the 'it' but due to multiple reasons, only one of it is gender and NONE of it is the 'it', the domination and exclusion of women.

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« Last Edit: Sep 13^th, 2022 at 9:50am by Frank »

Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
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thegreatdivide

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Re: a referendum we actually need
Reply #227 - Sep 13^th, 2022 at 9:44am

Captain Caveman wrote on Sep 12^th, 2022 at 4:50pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 12^th, 2022 at 4:08pm:

Gnads wrote on Sep 12^th, 2022 at 1:54pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 12^th, 2022 at 11:49am:

Kat wrote on Sep 12^th, 2022 at 11:13am:

Gnads wrote on Sep 12^th, 2022 at 10:21am:

The fictitious gender pay gap

.... now you're pedalling a "black gap" as a reason for the duplication of representation to Parliament.

everything you're barrowing here is race based bullshyte.

Well, no. It's anything but 'fictitious'.

It's not universal, by any means - I've worked with women in some of my jobs and we've
received the same wage for the same work.

But it DOES exist in some fields - mostly 'professional', for some reason.

The feminized nature of the low-paid caring professions (child care, health and age care) is also a factor in '"the gender pay gap" (ie men on average earn more than women).

That's an oversimplified generality.

Men on average earn more than women?

Doing what?

Trades like building/electrical etc etc, more highly paid than carers in age care etc.

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All you are trying to do is compare apples to rockmelons.

Refuted above.

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A man doing the same job would be paid the same.

Correct....but women on average do different work to men.

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You're like this journo - who had rings run around her with logic, composure & professionalism.

Oh no..the awful Jordan Peterson, I'd make a fool of him in 10 minutes or less.

Bwahahahahahaha.

er...CC, that's not debate.

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So out of everyone that's tried, you think you can....... and you're telling an internet forum.
How come you're not leading one of these crazy terrorist lefty groups who are trying oh so desperately to "make a fool of him" .

in short, because those groups don't understand the human condition, and the basis of economics (determing who lives and who starves).

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Even news anchors get left high and dry.
It's smacking hilarious.

.

News anchors are as dumb as they come.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXecLXlzEXE

And I identified the error which Peterson made in the linked video.

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And ya's label him far right, well your media does and you just parrot it.

That's your first mistake; I haven't labelled him far right.

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Good luck
Hope to see you one day try and pull this off.

Thanks.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: a referendum we actually need
Reply #228 - Sep 13^th, 2022 at 10:01am

MeisterEckhart wrote on Sep 12^th, 2022 at 5:06pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 12^th, 2022 at 4:39pm:

Peterson's very first stupidity:

journo: " women earn less than men"

peterson: "no they dont"

journo: "The pay gap is 9 percent less on average"

peterson:Yes but there are multiple reasons for that..."

So he agreed there IS a pay gap..... contradicting his earlier statement....

That's not even close to the transcript.

Read it before you put words in his mouth.

https://scrapsfromtheloft.com/psychology/jordan-petersons-channel-4-interview-ca...

Read it? I listened to the video carefully.

Can you deny Peterson said: "YES, but....."?

Of course women CANNOT ever earn the same as men on average, because they have to take time off to bear and suckle babies.

One solution is to pay higher wages for child and age care workers, who are largely female.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: a referendum we actually need
Reply #229 - Sep 13^th, 2022 at 10:11am

Gnads wrote on Sep 12^th, 2022 at 5:51pm:

And regardless of gender tradesmen & trades women, who do a 4 year apprenticeship and are proficient in their trade are always going to earn more than someone unskilled working in Aged Care or an Assistant in Childcare.

Correct, but why are women ovrwhelming attracted to low-paid age and child care? Partly because juggling family and home responsibilitues directs women to less time-demanding, intensive career education.

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My sister in law was an Early Childhood teacher at Govt & private Kindies & Preps. She also had 2 children during her career.

We are talking averages,; your sister and Gail Kelly for that matter (former CEO of Westpac who bemoaned the fact her salary was many multiples of her niece, a teacher), have nothing to do with the gender pay gap.

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The Gender Pay gap is a furphy & so is your racist "black Gap".

refuted above....and er... the black gap IS racist.....

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thegreatdivide

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Re: a referendum we actually need
Reply #230 - Sep 13^th, 2022 at 10:23am

mothra wrote on Sep 12^th, 2022 at 5:58pm:

[quote author=Gnads link=1660099461/167#167 date=1662969111]
Yet even the obnoxious Peterson admits in the link you shared and claimed to have watched, that the pay gap is a real thing. He just claims that it is multifaceted.

In true Peterson style, he thinks he's being cleverer than everyone else when he says this ... the fact is of course that feminists have been saying the exact same thing for generations.

Spot on. He's a fraud when cornered.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: a referendum we actually need
Reply #231 - Sep 13^th, 2022 at 10:35am

Gnads wrote on Sep 12^th, 2022 at 6:01pm:

He didn't contradict himself & he explained his point .... which was reasons for why women may earn less but they don't get paid less.

on average? Peterson agreed with her, listen yourself.

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It was like her harping on about equality & he having to ask whether she meant equality of outcome which he explained was not a good or fair outcome.

That old furphy of the Right; no one wants equality of outcome; I want above-poverty partcipation by all.

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It's like you thinking that women in aged care or child care should get paid as much as electricians, plumbers, builders etc.

No, it's just recognizing women earn less thn men on average; and higher wages in age and child care can assist in overcoming the 'gender pay gap' ...on average.

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Its a pharken nonsense.

Apparently you don't understand averages.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: a referendum we actually need
Reply #232 - Sep 13^th, 2022 at 10:36am

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 13^th, 2022 at 10:23am:

mothra wrote on Sep 12^th, 2022 at 5:58pm:

[quote author=Gnads link=1660099461/167#167 date=1662969111]
Yet even the obnoxious Peterson admits in the link you shared and claimed to have watched, that the pay gap is a real thing. He just claims that it is multifaceted.

In true Peterson style, he thinks he's being cleverer than everyone else when he says this ... the fact is of course that feminists have been saying the exact same thing for generations.

Spot on. He's a fraud when cornered.

Then, by the same standards, you'd have to concede that Newman, in that interview, was even more deceptive and fraudulent.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: a referendum we actually need
Reply #233 - Sep 13^th, 2022 at 11:08am

Gnads wrote on Sep 12^th, 2022 at 6:14pm:

His calm & considered style is what annoys leftist ideologues like you & lefty journalists like Newman.

I was exasperated by Peterson's woolly thinking before the quoted exchange:

Newman: "there is a crisis of masculinity? what do you do about it?"

Perterson: you tell ...you help people to understand why it's necessary to grow up..to get their act together (ok, in his psychiatrist mode) "it's more like a delineation of destiny that makes life worth living. [/quote]

(Apart from the waffle) note: "you need to tell ...to help people" ....so much for the rugged individual who has to make his own success....

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You want him to be angry & abusive so play the oppressive white male patriarchy card.

No I want him to show some understanding of the human condition with its conflict between unconscious instinct and conscious thought.

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Yes your lefty feminists were parroting the same mantra & Petersen explained to Newman that they were wrong just as she was ...... and you are.

As Mothra noted, feminsts have been saying the same thing as peterson for ages; Peterson just likes to cloud the issue. Fact is women must bear and suckle children
(...which might offend some extreme feminists...), which therefor must interfere with career opportunities on average.

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Like he said, he chooses his words very very carefully .....

and struggles to put a sensible argument , as outlined above : "tell... help...." (men how to live full lives)

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And he has people like you for breakfast on a regular basis.

Pass.I haven't met him.

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That interview had to be the worst Newman has ever done and I bet she looks back on that & cringes.

Addressed above: he has me cringing.

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Ahhhhhhhh gotcha! He certainly did ..... and she admitted it.

Care to detail your point? I stopped listening at: "Yes the gender pay gap exists, but..."

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thegreatdivide

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Re: a referendum we actually need
Reply #234 - Sep 13^th, 2022 at 11:15am

MeisterEckhart wrote on Sep 13^th, 2022 at 10:36am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 13^th, 2022 at 10:23am:

mothra wrote on Sep 12^th, 2022 at 5:58pm:

[quote author=Gnads link=1660099461/167#167 date=1662969111]
Yet even the obnoxious Peterson admits in the link you shared and claimed to have watched, that the pay gap is a real thing. He just claims that it is multifaceted.

In true Peterson style, he thinks he's being cleverer than everyone else when he says this ... the fact is of course that feminists have been saying the exact same thing for generations.

Spot on. He's a fraud when cornered.

Then, by the same standards, you'd have to concede that Newman, in that interview, was even more deceptive and fraudulent.

No, she's a mere journalist with no, or limited, training in economics, ethics, psychology, anthropology. Her job is to report events to the public.

Peterson is fraudulently running rings around her.

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MeisterEckhart Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 13102 Gender:	Re: a referendum we actually need Reply #235 - Sep 13^th, 2022 at 11:16am thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 13^th, 2022 at 11:08am: I stopped listening at: "Yes the gender pay gap exists, but..." Stopped listening, eh! And you think you can take on Peterson!
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thegreatdivide

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Re: a referendum we actually need
Reply #236 - Sep 13^th, 2022 at 11:35am

Frank wrote on Sep 12^th, 2022 at 6:53pm:

(Peterson) does explain his position very clearly - male/female differences in pay, life choices, etc are multi-variant equations and questions.

Clear as mud. Why not just say women have to bear and suckle children, and society's assistance might be necessary in a world where many women are single mothers, and women increasingly want to have independent lifestyles.

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She doesn't and only assumes that equality of outcome is an unchallengeable starting point in such a discussion.

'Equality of outcome' is a RW ruse, which the Right confuse with 'equality of opportunity". to avoid establishment of above-poverty participation by all.
Newson herself probably doesn't understand the implications of this in regard to women's economic outcomes in society

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It evidently isn't but her mind is befogged by the ideology and she doesn't have the intelligence and candour to perceive that multi-variant aspect of this and most other such questions.

The Right's understanding of "equality of outcome" is a shibboleth, a ruse as noted above.

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It is quite amusing to watch.

I would say excruciating....

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thegreatdivide

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Re: a referendum we actually need
Reply #237 - Sep 13^th, 2022 at 11:50am

MeisterEckhart wrote on Sep 12^th, 2022 at 9:48pm:

mothra wrote on Sep 12^th, 2022 at 9:43pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Sep 12^th, 2022 at 9:39pm:

mothra wrote on Sep 12^th, 2022 at 9:35pm:

So yes. You paraphrased.

And i'm not interested in debating her performance. I have repeatedly said she gave a poor interview. But if you want your question answered, perhaps you can examine your own motives? After all, you keep doing precisely what you are accusing her of having done.

So she put it to Peterson that it was his words, not hers.

As you are putting it to me that the words you have ascribed to her are her words, not yours.

Oh this is ridiculous.

You can read the transcript.

Newman: So it seems to a lot of women that they still being dominated and excluded, to quote your words back to you.

All this after you have moved on from:

"First he said there was no gender pay gap ... then he went on to detail factors that cause the pay gap.

You can't make this stuff up."

I haven't listened to the rest of the video; he is already exposed as a fraud..even IF he explained the gap is mult-faceted.

As for women being oppressed by men, that is a simplistic analysis. The battle of the sexes?... too much collaberation with the enemy...

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thegreatdivide Gold Member Online Australian Politics<br /> Posts: 13092 Gender:	Re: a referendum we actually need Reply #238 - Sep 13^th, 2022 at 11:53am MeisterEckhart wrote on Sep 13^th, 2022 at 11:16am: thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 13^th, 2022 at 11:08am: I stopped listening at: "Yes the gender pay gap exists, but..." Stopped listening, eh! And you think you can take on Peterson! Petereson: "Men...need to be told...men need help..." Yes, I can take on Peterson.
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MeisterEckhart

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Re: a referendum we actually need
Reply #239 - Sep 13^th, 2022 at 11:55am

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 13^th, 2022 at 11:53am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Sep 13^th, 2022 at 11:16am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 13^th, 2022 at 11:08am:

I stopped listening at: "Yes the gender pay gap exists, but..."

Stopped listening, eh! And you think you can take on Peterson!

Petereson: "Men...need to be told...men need help..."

Yes, I can take on Peterson.

You haven't shown enough skill for this forum.

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