Australian Politics Forum - a referendum we actually need

Frank

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Re: a referendum we actually need
Reply #270 - Sep 13^th, 2022 at 5:53pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 13^th, 2022 at 5:26pm:

Frank wrote on Sep 13^th, 2022 at 4:56pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 13^th, 2022 at 1:06pm:

Frank wrote on Sep 13^th, 2022 at 12:37pm:

the pay gap exists but is not due solely or even mainly to gender,

(note: edited format corrections in previous post)

"Not due solely", implying gender is ONE factor..

.which in part, by definition is
the gender pay gap (because women must bear and suckle babies ...and it exists...

Quote:

so it is not a 'gender pay gap'.

Of course it is, regardless of co-existing non-gender causes of the gap; ever heard of logic?

Why single out gender if other causes - far more influential - also exist? Ever heard of propaganda?

I would say the burden of bearing and suckling children is quite influential, in determining women's economic circumstances.

There is a MASSIVE gender pay gap between you and Gina Reinhhardt - and she brought up 4 kiddies.

Please explain in terms of gender and child rearing. Don't stray from those two variants.

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freediver

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Re: a referendum we actually need
Reply #271 - Sep 13^th, 2022 at 6:07pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on Sep 13^th, 2022 at 8:13am:

freediver wrote on Sep 13^th, 2022 at 6:35am:

Quote:

It is not a state.

According to Muslims, it naturally is. That is why Muslims start pushing for a religious state as soon as they are in a position to do so. Muhammad was a political leader, just as much as a religious one, and his movement is just as political as it is religious.

You are referring to an Islamic state (a religious state), not a state called Islam.

Islam does not recognise the distinction between state and religion. A religious state is as natural to Islam as people gathering at a church on Sunday morning is to Christianity. You are projecting western values onto Islam. You see it is just a religion in the conventional sense, but that does not make it so.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: a referendum we actually need
Reply #272 - Sep 13^th, 2022 at 6:27pm

freediver wrote on Sep 13^th, 2022 at 6:07pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Sep 13^th, 2022 at 8:13am:

freediver wrote on Sep 13^th, 2022 at 6:35am:

Quote:

It is not a state.

According to Muslims, it naturally is. That is why Muslims start pushing for a religious state as soon as they are in a position to do so. Muhammad was a political leader, just as much as a religious one, and his movement is just as political as it is religious.

You are referring to an Islamic state (a religious state), not a state called Islam.

Islam does not recognise the distinction between state and religion. A religious state is as natural to Islam as people gathering at a church on Sunday morning is to Christianity. You are projecting western values onto Islam. You see it is just a religion in the conventional sense, but that does not make it so.

Yes, I know that Islam does not recognise the distinction between state and religion; the Holy Roman Empire was the closest approximation (as a Christian supra-state) to an Islamic supra-state.

It's meaningless, even to Muslims, to name any geographical area, Islam, as it would be meaningless to name a state secular.

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Grappler Deep State Feller

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Re: a referendum we actually need
Reply #273 - Sep 13^th, 2022 at 10:55pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 13^th, 2022 at 5:43pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Sep 13^th, 2022 at 5:29pm:

Frank wrote on Sep 13^th, 2022 at 4:56pm:

Ever heard of propaganda?

Heard of it? He trekked through it.

The reality of the burden of bearing and suckling children, without male or societal support, is not 'propaganda, it's fact.

Feel free to refute that point, since you have given up on the Cicero paradox.

Quote:

Funny how the bamboo thickets looked bigger than the mountains he climbed there, but.

The pictures must've been taken from bad angles.

Fraudulent non-debating narrative, as expected.

So women should be paid extra for their child bearing duties and choices? They have been supported by men for generations, sharing in all the proceeds of often very hard and dangerous work for the man...and the state has taken on the burden as well...

They are already paid for it and always have been....

What is your argument?

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Grappler Deep State Feller

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Re: a referendum we actually need
Reply #274 - Sep 13^th, 2022 at 10:59pm

freediver wrote on Sep 13^th, 2022 at 6:07pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Sep 13^th, 2022 at 8:13am:

freediver wrote on Sep 13^th, 2022 at 6:35am:

Quote:

It is not a state.

According to Muslims, it naturally is. That is why Muslims start pushing for a religious state as soon as they are in a position to do so. Muhammad was a political leader, just as much as a religious one, and his movement is just as political as it is religious.

You are referring to an Islamic state (a religious state), not a state called Islam.

Islam does not recognise the distinction between state and religion. A religious state is as natural to Islam as people gathering at a church on Sunday morning is to Christianity. You are projecting western values onto Islam. You see it is just a religion in the conventional sense, but that does not make it so.

Preeee-cisely! I've been telling yez for ages that in CT studies Islamism (the most virulent Islam manifestation) views Islam as a "state without borders".

The Catholic church etc do as well - but they accept secular government and not religious government.

There lies the very real difference between Islam and most other religions.

How would you like it if our courts found you guilty on the premise that it didn't matter if you were or not, since God would sort it all out for you in Heaven in the event of a mistake?

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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thegreatdivide Gold Member Offline Australian Politics<br /> Posts: 13090 Gender:	Re: a referendum we actually need Reply #275 - Sep 14^th, 2022 at 10:59am MeisterEckhart wrote on Sep 13^th, 2022 at 5:51pm: thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 13^th, 2022 at 5:43pm: Fraudulent non-debating narrative, as expected. Aww, boo hoo. Your concession on the 2 debates (gender, Cicero) accepted.
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MeisterEckhart

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Re: a referendum we actually need
Reply #276 - Sep 14^th, 2022 at 11:01am

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 14^th, 2022 at 10:59am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Sep 13^th, 2022 at 5:51pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 13^th, 2022 at 5:43pm:

Fraudulent non-debating narrative, as expected.

Aww, boo hoo.

Your concession on the 2 debates (gender, Cicero) accepted.

No. It's just an observation that you're likely an old and lonely manchild.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: a referendum we actually need
Reply #277 - Sep 14^th, 2022 at 11:07am

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Sep 13^th, 2022 at 10:55pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 13^th, 2022 at 5:43pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Sep 13^th, 2022 at 5:29pm:

Frank wrote on Sep 13^th, 2022 at 4:56pm:

Ever heard of propaganda?

Heard of it? He trekked through it.

The reality of the burden of bearing and suckling children, without male or societal support, is not 'propaganda, it's fact.

Feel free to refute that point, since you have given up on the Cicero paradox.

Quote:

Funny how the bamboo thickets looked bigger than the mountains he climbed there, but.

The pictures must've been taken from bad angles.

Fraudulent non-debating narrative, as expected.

So women should be paid extra for their child bearing duties and choices?

Child bearing and sucklng isn't a choice in the macro sense,

Quote:

They have been supported by men for generations, sharing in all the proceeds of often very hard and dangerous work for the man...and the state has taken on the burden as well...

Yet as a group (50% of the population), they are poorer than men,

Quote:

They are already paid for it and always have been....

Refuted above.

Quote:

What is your argument?

That gendered employment roles like child and age care should be paid more.

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Grappler Deep State Feller

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Re: a referendum we actually need
Reply #278 - Sep 14^th, 2022 at 1:18pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 14^th, 2022 at 10:59am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Sep 13^th, 2022 at 5:51pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 13^th, 2022 at 5:43pm:

Fraudulent non-debating narrative, as expected.

Aww, boo hoo.

Your concession on the 2 debates (gender, Cicero) accepted.

Oooh - gender pay gap! W-ell!

… and now on the Grappler Morning show – our promised re-working of the classic 'gender wage gap' in an attempt to intrude some reality into the lives of those perpetually and professionally dumbed by ideology:-

https://www.google.com/search?q=australia+how+many+hours+per+week+do+men+work&oq...
https://www.abs.gov.au/statistics/labour/earnings-and-working-conditions/average...

Women worked 36.4 hours pw on average, earned $1672.45

Average working weeks is 37.5 hours – so we add 1.1 hours worth to women's overall income

= $1723 for a 37.5 hour week.

Men worked 41 hours pw on average, earned $1955.45

At 37.5 hour average week – we must take away 3.5 hours pay to attain equity.

Ergo - $1955.45 - $166.92 = $1788.53 for a 37.5 hour week...

..then we must remove the half time penalty component from the extra 3.5 hours = 3.5 x $23.85 = $83.48.

Ergo - for a 37.5 hour week men would be paid $1788.53 - $83.48 = $1705.05.

ERGO:- For an ordinary 37.5 hour week women are paid $18 pw more than men, not including additions for conditions such as wet, weather, dust, remoteness, underground, height and so forth.

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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thegreatdivide

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Re: a referendum we actually need
Reply #279 - Sep 14^th, 2022 at 3:48pm

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Sep 14^th, 2022 at 1:18pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 14^th, 2022 at 10:59am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Sep 13^th, 2022 at 5:51pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 13^th, 2022 at 5:43pm:

Fraudulent non-debating narrative, as expected.

Aww, boo hoo.

Your concession on the 2 debates (gender, Cicero) accepted.

Oooh - gender pay gap! W-ell!

… and now on the Grappler Morning show – our promised re-working of the classic 'gender wage gap' in an attempt to intrude some reality into the lives of those perpetually and professionally dumbed by ideology:-

https://www.google.com/search?q=australia+how+many+hours+per+week+do+men+work&oq...
https://www.abs.gov.au/statistics/labour/earnings-and-working-conditions/average...

Women worked 36.4 hours pw on average, earned $1672.45

Average working weeks is 37.5 hours – so we add 1.1 hours worth to women's overall income

= $1723 for a 37.5 hour week.

Men worked 41 hours pw on average, earned $1955.45

At 37.5 hour average week – we must take away 3.5 hours pay to attain equity.

Ergo - $1955.45 - $166.92 = $1788.53 for a 37.5 hour week...

..then we must remove the half time penalty component from the extra 3.5 hours = 3.5 x $23.85 = $83.48.

Ergo - for a 37.5 hour week men would be paid $1788.53 - $83.48 = $1705.05.

ERGO:- For an ordinary 37.5 hour week women are paid $18 pw more than men, not including additions for conditions such as wet, weather, dust, remoteness, underground, height and so forth.

Pity about all your efforts there, your stats are irrelevent.

Just so you know: 50% of the population by gender earn c 10% less (in total) than the other 50% of the population., due to the requirements of bearing, and suckling children.

aka "the gender pay gap".

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Grappler Deep State Feller

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Re: a referendum we actually need
Reply #280 - Sep 14^th, 2022 at 5:29pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 14^th, 2022 at 11:07am:

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Sep 13^th, 2022 at 10:55pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 13^th, 2022 at 5:43pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Sep 13^th, 2022 at 5:29pm:

Frank wrote on Sep 13^th, 2022 at 4:56pm:

Ever heard of propaganda?

Heard of it? He trekked through it.

The reality of the burden of bearing and suckling children, without male or societal support, is not 'propaganda, it's fact.

Feel free to refute that point, since you have given up on the Cicero paradox.

Quote:

Funny how the bamboo thickets looked bigger than the mountains he climbed there, but.

The pictures must've been taken from bad angles.

Fraudulent non-debating narrative, as expected.

So women should be paid extra for their child bearing duties and choices?

Child bearing and sucklng isn't a choice in the macro sense,

Quote:

They have been supported by men for generations, sharing in all the proceeds of often very hard and dangerous work for the man...and the state has taken on the burden as well...

Yet as a group (50% of the population), they are poorer than men,

Quote:

They are already paid for it and always have been....

Refuted above.

Quote:

What is your argument?

That gendered employment roles like child and age care should be paid more.

So that's your entire premise?

Already in train, and under discussion between unions, governments and employers.... why are you bothering? The flow-on economic effects will be endless and potentially disastrous for many Mandatory Dual Income Families (MADIFs), and will impose a mighty extra burden on the budget that it can ill afford at this time.

It's time for governments to get out of their social science mode and get into doing they things they are paid for - fixing the hospitals, roads, and infrastructure... the rest should be left to market forces, with additional oversight and regulation for the aged care sector at least....

The more you pay people the more it costs and the more it costs the more you have to pay people to get by - it's a never-ending cycle....

You speak as if it is a finite issue that will be magically resolved by giving the girls more money so as to further unbalance the current income levels clearly favouring women.

In every sector there are those who get less and those who get more... between different sectors there are some who get less and some who get more.... you will never change that, but what your thinking style can do is create further problems for others by exclusion and disadvantage to them.

You cannot continue to rob Peter to pay Paula... and when you raise incomes for childcare workers, you create pressure on both Peter and his wife Petra to demand higher income levels to cater for increased costs, or you create a truly insane policy of a government to fund it near totally, meaning those with children get a better deal .... and so it goes on and on...

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Gnads

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Re: a referendum we actually need
Reply #281 - Sep 14^th, 2022 at 6:19pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 13^th, 2022 at 4:46pm:

Gnads wrote on Sep 13^th, 2022 at 2:42pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 13^th, 2022 at 11:35am:

Frank wrote on Sep 12^th, 2022 at 6:53pm:

(Peterson) does explain his position very clearly - male/female differences in pay, life choices, etc are multi-variant equations and questions.

Clear as mud. Why not just say women have to bear and suckle children, and society's assistance might be necessary in a world where many women are single mothers, and women increasingly want to have independent lifestyles.

Quote:

She doesn't and only assumes that equality of outcome is an unchallengeable starting point in such a discussion.

'Equality of outcome' is a RW ruse, which the Right confuse with 'equality of opportunity". to avoid establishment of above-poverty participation by all.
Newson herself probably doesn't understand the implications of this in regard to women's economic outcomes in society

Quote:

It evidently isn't but her mind is befogged by the ideology and she doesn't have the intelligence and candour to perceive that multi-variant aspect of this and most other such questions.

The Right's understanding of "equality of outcome" is a shibboleth, a ruse as noted above.

Quote:

It is quite amusing to watch.

I would say excruciating....

Women have equal opportunity & have for ages.

Nonsense. It's impossible, if you have to bear and suckle babies.

Quote:

In fact they now have more than equal opportunity & you know it. Preferential job selection & quota levels.

All you are prattling are dated victimhood excuses.

refuted above.

Phark you're dense...... they don't have to.. they have a choice... they've had it since 1950.

Does "the Pill" .... ring any bells?

Your refutations are dated meaningless nothings.

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Gnads

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Re: a referendum we actually need
Reply #282 - Sep 14^th, 2022 at 6:25pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 13^th, 2022 at 5:26pm:

Frank wrote on Sep 13^th, 2022 at 4:56pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 13^th, 2022 at 1:06pm:

Frank wrote on Sep 13^th, 2022 at 12:37pm:

the pay gap exists but is not due solely or even mainly to gender,

(note: edited format corrections in previous post)

"Not due solely", implying gender is ONE factor..

.which in part, by definition is
the gender pay gap (because women must bear and suckle babies ...and it exists...

Quote:

so it is not a 'gender pay gap'.

Of course it is, regardless of co-existing non-gender causes of the gap; ever heard of logic?

Why single out gender if other causes - far more influential - also exist? Ever heard of propaganda?

I would say the burden of bearing and suckling children is quite influential, in determining women's economic circumstances.

Usually they're not on their own when it comes to childbirth & rearing.

What about all the women that choose not to breast feed? ... yes choose not to .... not can't.

There are many ..... that don't suckle.

So how many more variables do you want to bring in?

You're barking up a tree without bark.

You're as painfully repetitious with the "bearing & suckling" as you are with the CDEP. Roll Eyes

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Gnads

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Re: a referendum we actually need
Reply #283 - Sep 14^th, 2022 at 6:28pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 13^th, 2022 at 5:43pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Sep 13^th, 2022 at 5:29pm:

Frank wrote on Sep 13^th, 2022 at 4:56pm:

Ever heard of propaganda?

Heard of it? He trekked through it.

The reality of the burden of bearing and suckling children, without male or societal support, is not 'propaganda, it's fact.

Feel free to refute that point, since you have given up on the Cicero paradox.

Quote:

Funny how the bamboo thickets looked bigger than the mountains he climbed there, but.

The pictures must've been taken from bad angles.

Fraudulent non-debating narrative, as expected.

now you throw in another variable into the multifaceted variables & analysis that says the gender pay gap doesn't "really" exist.

Are your feet hurting yet?

You've shot yourself in both.

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Gnads

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Re: a referendum we actually need
Reply #284 - Sep 14^th, 2022 at 6:36pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 14^th, 2022 at 3:48pm:

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Sep 14^th, 2022 at 1:18pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 14^th, 2022 at 10:59am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Sep 13^th, 2022 at 5:51pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 13^th, 2022 at 5:43pm:

Fraudulent non-debating narrative, as expected.

Aww, boo hoo.

Your concession on the 2 debates (gender, Cicero) accepted.

Oooh - gender pay gap! W-ell!

… and now on the Grappler Morning show – our promised re-working of the classic 'gender wage gap' in an attempt to intrude some reality into the lives of those perpetually and professionally dumbed by ideology:-

https://www.google.com/search?q=australia+how+many+hours+per+week+do+men+work&oq...
https://www.abs.gov.au/statistics/labour/earnings-and-working-conditions/average...

Women worked 36.4 hours pw on average, earned $1672.45

Average working weeks is 37.5 hours – so we add 1.1 hours worth to women's overall income

= $1723 for a 37.5 hour week.

Men worked 41 hours pw on average, earned $1955.45

At 37.5 hour average week – we must take away 3.5 hours pay to attain equity.

Ergo - $1955.45 - $166.92 = $1788.53 for a 37.5 hour week...

..then we must remove the half time penalty component from the extra 3.5 hours = 3.5 x $23.85 = $83.48.

Ergo - for a 37.5 hour week men would be paid $1788.53 - $83.48 = $1705.05.

ERGO:- For an ordinary 37.5 hour week women are paid $18 pw more than men, not including additions for conditions such as wet, weather, dust, remoteness, underground, height and so forth.

Pity about all your efforts there, your stats are irrelevent.

Just so you know: 50% of the population by gender earn c 10% less (in total) than the other 50% of the population., due to the requirements of bearing, and suckling children.

aka "the gender pay gap".

Bullshyte

Statistical evidence could be tattooed on your forehead & you would still parrot the bs leftist radical feminist dogma.

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