Australian Politics Forum - Roberts-Smith VC

Gnads

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Re: Roberts-Smith VC
Reply #60 - Sep 14^th, 2022 at 6:02pm

Aussie wrote on Sep 14^th, 2022 at 12:33pm:

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Sep 14^th, 2022 at 10:47am:

chimera wrote on Sep 14^th, 2022 at 10:17am:

Article 3.
https://www.ohchr.org/en/instruments-mechanisms/instruments/geneva-convention-relative-treatment-prisoners-war

It has yet to be proven that R-S actually did not abide by those tenets....

There is nothing wrong with this appointment at this time....

Now what about that apology to 2 Sqn and its restoration?

While the Brereton Report remains , that 'SQN' will remain disbanded. The few very bad apples sullied the name of the noble many, but....no more 'getting away with it.'

The Brereton Report was a snow job to take the heat off the ADF command & so they could throw BRS under the bus.

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Gnads

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Re: Roberts-Smith VC
Reply #61 - Sep 14^th, 2022 at 6:05pm

random wrote on Sep 14^th, 2022 at 4:04pm:

Imagine, just imagine ...

You are an SAS grunt who is ordered to shoot an unarmed person, dragged out of their bed. You do it, you are 'blooded'. It follows that if you have not been blooded you are not a real SAS dude. The pressure to conform would be immense.

You get home, get discharged and the nightmares will not stop. At a BBQ you are introduced to an Afghani family who just moved to the area, really nice people with a few kids. You wake up screaming that night.

How many of the suicides we are seeing are related to these illegal behaviours? I think quite a few.

You've missed your calling Freud Roll Eyes

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Grappler Deep State Feller

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Re: Roberts-Smith VC
Reply #62 - Sep 14^th, 2022 at 6:17pm

Special Forces come in all shapes and sizes - there is no distinct type... they range from the tall well-built guy who looks football forward material to the 5'7" guy who sits quietly at a table in the bar and drinks slowly.

It is ability that counts - and Gnads is right - and as I've said times many over the years - the SASR were being used in a role that well-trained Infantry could handle equally well, and as far from their core operational fit as they could possibly be.

Politicians do that to look good in the news... and equally the report overlooks many of the very real issues of command breakdown and what looks like cover-up from up high, not least the failure to infuse into newbie junior officers the rules of certain things on the ground.

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Aussie

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Re: Roberts-Smith VC
Reply #63 - Sep 14^th, 2022 at 6:28pm

Gnads wrote on Sep 14^th, 2022 at 6:02pm:

Aussie wrote on Sep 14^th, 2022 at 12:33pm:

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Sep 14^th, 2022 at 10:47am:

chimera wrote on Sep 14^th, 2022 at 10:17am:

Article 3.
https://www.ohchr.org/en/instruments-mechanisms/instruments/geneva-convention-relative-treatment-prisoners-war

It has yet to be proven that R-S actually did not abide by those tenets....

There is nothing wrong with this appointment at this time....

Now what about that apology to 2 Sqn and its restoration?

While the Brereton Report remains , that 'SQN' will remain disbanded. The few very bad apples sullied the name of the noble many, but....no more 'getting away with it.'

The Brereton Report was a snow job to take the heat off the ADF command & so they could throw BRS under the bus.

Oh, I see. Of course you can back that up with evidence I am sure.

No-one denies that up the line of command at the time, there were/are issues. In time, that will all come out. Any action taken against BRS will precipitate that. Inescapable.

However, that does not in any way excuse those arseholes who conducted themselves in the manner described in that Report, and described by people who sat in a witness box and swore under oath about what they saw.

All that said....I remain firmly of the view that it is very poor judgement on the part of BRS to go to that funeral.

He loses nothing by staying here, and sending an apology.

What does he gain...SFA...other than in his own mind that the general invitation to all in some way vindicates him personally, or washes it all away.

Nah.

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Gnads

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Re: Roberts-Smith VC
Reply #64 - Sep 14^th, 2022 at 6:39pm

Aussie wrote on Sep 14^th, 2022 at 6:28pm:

Gnads wrote on Sep 14^th, 2022 at 6:02pm:

Aussie wrote on Sep 14^th, 2022 at 12:33pm:

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Sep 14^th, 2022 at 10:47am:

chimera wrote on Sep 14^th, 2022 at 10:17am:

Article 3.
https://www.ohchr.org/en/instruments-mechanisms/instruments/geneva-convention-relative-treatment-prisoners-war

It has yet to be proven that R-S actually did not abide by those tenets....

There is nothing wrong with this appointment at this time....

Now what about that apology to 2 Sqn and its restoration?

While the Brereton Report remains , that 'SQN' will remain disbanded. The few very bad apples sullied the name of the noble many, but....no more 'getting away with it.'

The Brereton Report was a snow job to take the heat off the ADF command & so they could throw BRS under the bus.

Oh, I see. Of course you can back that up with evidence I am sure.

No-one denies that up the line of command at the time, there were/are issues. In time, that will all come out. Any action taken against BRS will precipitate that. Inescapable.

However, that does not in any way excuse those arseholes who conducted themselves in the manner described in that Report, and described by people who sat in a witness box and swore under oath about what they saw.

All that said....I remain firmly of the view that it is very poor judgement on the part of BRS to go to that funeral.

He loses nothing by staying here, and sending an apology.

What does he gain...SFA...other than in his own mind that the general invitation to all in some way vindicates him personally, or washes it all away.

Nah.

And you & your excuses?

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"When you are dead, you do not know you are dead. It's only painful and difficult for others. The same applies when you are stupid." ~ Ricky Gervais

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Aussie Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 38838 Gender:	Re: Roberts-Smith VC Reply #65 - Sep 14^th, 2022 at 6:53pm That makes zero sense to me Gonads.
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Grappler Deep State Feller Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 85108 Always was always will be HOME Gender:	Re: Roberts-Smith VC Reply #66 - Sep 15^th, 2022 at 12:27am How much of 'in time' do you want? This BS has been dragging on for years now and the only result has been a serious undermining of the morale of the troops, and not a single conviction to show for it, let alone any serious look at the management issues in higher-higher. It's a circus so far.
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Grappler Deep State Feller

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Re: Roberts-Smith VC
Reply #67 - Sep 15^th, 2022 at 12:35am

Gnads wrote on Sep 14^th, 2022 at 6:39pm:

Aussie wrote on Sep 14^th, 2022 at 6:28pm:

Gnads wrote on Sep 14^th, 2022 at 6:02pm:

Aussie wrote on Sep 14^th, 2022 at 12:33pm:

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Sep 14^th, 2022 at 10:47am:

chimera wrote on Sep 14^th, 2022 at 10:17am:

Article 3.
https://www.ohchr.org/en/instruments-mechanisms/instruments/geneva-convention-relative-treatment-prisoners-war

It has yet to be proven that R-S actually did not abide by those tenets....

There is nothing wrong with this appointment at this time....

Now what about that apology to 2 Sqn and its restoration?

While the Brereton Report remains , that 'SQN' will remain disbanded. The few very bad apples sullied the name of the noble many, but....no more 'getting away with it.'

The Brereton Report was a snow job to take the heat off the ADF command & so they could throw BRS under the bus.

Oh, I see. Of course you can back that up with evidence I am sure.

No-one denies that up the line of command at the time, there were/are issues. In time, that will all come out. Any action taken against BRS will precipitate that. Inescapable.

However, that does not in any way excuse those arseholes who conducted themselves in the manner described in that Report, and described by people who sat in a witness box and swore under oath about what they saw.

All that said....I remain firmly of the view that it is very poor judgement on the part of BRS to go to that funeral.

He loses nothing by staying here, and sending an apology.

What does he gain...SFA...other than in his own mind that the general invitation to all in some way vindicates him personally, or washes it all away.

Nah.

And you & your excuses?

Staying away could be viewed as a confession of guilt by some... appearances matter - as it was R-S simply stood tall and said - "I'm not going to let people call me names and say I don't have the guts to show up and look in their eyes. If they've got anything to say they can say it to my face!"

I've done the same thing. Don't laugh.... and nobody says a word to your face.... they're out there talking all Pistol (Henry V) about what they'll do - like an Abbott shirtfront - but the moment they have the chance it's all quiet and maybe some indirect comment which means nothing and where the commenter is melted by the twin .44 eyes in response and says no more, even with a gang behind him.

R-S simply said with action:- Got something to say - say it in public and here and now to my face!

I can relate to that.

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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chimera Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 11831 Armidale Gender:	Re: Roberts-Smith VC Reply #68 - Sep 15^th, 2022 at 12:40am A circus of hearing facts from all available witnesses to make sure the outcome is real. Then the next step may be taken as the decision leads them forward. Ozzie ozzie is not admissable as evidence.
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Gnads Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 29863 Gender:	Re: Roberts-Smith VC Reply #69 - Sep 15^th, 2022 at 7:13am Aussie wrote on Sep 14^th, 2022 at 6:53pm: That makes zero sense to me Gonads. You're not trying hard enough.
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Grappler Deep State Feller

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Re: Roberts-Smith VC
Reply #70 - Sep 15^th, 2022 at 8:15am

chimera wrote on Sep 15^th, 2022 at 12:40am:

A circus of hearing facts from all available witnesses to make sure the outcome is real. Then the next step may be taken as the decision leads them forward. Ozzie ozzie is not admissable as evidence.

I'm happy to see that you think a civil action is the same and has the same effect as a criminal action.... many, since the advent of the violent and abusive 'violence' laws, make that mistake. It was a part of the original concept of introducing those 'laws' - to lower the realities of the need to provide actual proof and substitute it with some chimerical concept of 'feeling'.

In other words - catering to the howling mob.

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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chimera Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 11831 Armidale Gender:	Re: Roberts-Smith VC Reply #71 - Sep 15^th, 2022 at 8:17am chimera wrote on Sep 14^th, 2022 at 1:56pm: Right, so it's virtually the same. It needs criminal intent if in the war crimes court and possible defences of drunk, provocation or insane which seem unlikely. The personal impact on the accused either way in both cases seems similar. How is that saying they're the same?
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Grappler Deep State Feller

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Re: Roberts-Smith VC
Reply #72 - Sep 15^th, 2022 at 4:22pm

chimera wrote on Sep 15^th, 2022 at 8:17am:

chimera wrote on Sep 14^th, 2022 at 1:56pm:

Right, so it's virtually the same. It needs criminal intent if in the war crimes court and possible defences of drunk, provocation or insane which seem unlikely. The personal impact on the accused either way in both cases seems similar.

How is that saying they're the same?

Just in that you previously said it was assembling facts... civil actions have different rules from facts proven... opinions etc are given weight and the outcome is decided on 'balance of probabilities'... meaning, in real life, whatever prejudice is in play.

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Aussie

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Re: Roberts-Smith VC
Reply #73 - Sep 15^th, 2022 at 4:26pm

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Sep 15^th, 2022 at 4:22pm:

chimera wrote on Sep 15^th, 2022 at 8:17am:

chimera wrote on Sep 14^th, 2022 at 1:56pm:

Right, so it's virtually the same. It needs criminal intent if in the war crimes court and possible defences of drunk, provocation or insane which seem unlikely. The personal impact on the accused either way in both cases seems similar.

How is that saying they're the same?

Just in that you previously said it was assembling facts... civil actions have different rules from facts proven... opinions etc are given weight and the outcome is decided on 'balance of probabilities'... meaning, in real life, whatever prejudice is in play.

Opinions are 'given weight' in many criminal trials.

Balance of probability means nothing more than....more probable than not.

And there is no more prejudice at play in a civil trial than there is in a criminal trial.

You really need to get a fuqqin bulldozer to move that chip off that shoulder, ya know.

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Lisa Jones Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 39047 Sydney Gender:	Re: Roberts-Smith VC Reply #74 - Sep 15^th, 2022 at 4:34pm I think he'll win this case. 👆 There I said it. What do others think?
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