Australian Politics Forum - Hijab, a symbol of oppression.

freediver

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Re: Hijab, a symbol of oppression.
Reply #165 - Oct 23^rd, 2022 at 8:52pm

Here it is John:

freediver wrote on Oct 6^th, 2022 at 8:54pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 6^th, 2022 at 10:30am:

freediver wrote on Sep 30^th, 2022 at 6:18pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 30^th, 2022 at 10:56am:

Its true Frank - you refer to hijabis as any one of:

- a miserable creature with no agency
- too ignorant/brainwashed to know any "better"
- deviantly flaunting symbols of oppression
- someone who is not worthy to be part of this society
- someone who is fare game for ridicule

the terms "hijab" and "hijabis" are pejoratives for you. You make it crystal clear that to wear the hijab is a form of deviancy and/or sign of ignorance or someone who has no agency. These women are nothing but caricatures to you.

So no, I am not emoting when I say you degrade and humiliate any woman who wears the hijab.

How much agency do hijabis generally have?

generally where? In Iran - obviously not much, in Australia, a lot more.

Arguing the degree of agency women have in wearing the hijab in a free country like Australia is a fools errand, and adds nothing to the debate.

Why not? If Australian women are being forced to wear the hijab, why would you not want to know about it and defend their rights?

And here is you responding:

John Smith wrote on Oct 6^th, 2022 at 9:32pm:

freediver wrote on Oct 6^th, 2022 at 8:54pm:

Why not? If Australian women are being forced to wear the hijab, why would you not want to know about it and defend their rights?

Exactly ... why should they wear a hijab when they can instead be raped with cacti.

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AusGeoff

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Re: Hijab, a symbol of oppression.
Reply #166 - Oct 23^rd, 2022 at 9:12pm

Of course the enforced wearing of Muslim veils is coercive.

Hijab in Iran: A cultural product or ideological coercion?.

Quote:

According to law, women can only be present in public if her body is covered
within the limits of the prescribed standards, otherwise she will be prosecuted.
In addition, anyone from the police all the way down to ordinary citizens are
given the right to remark and counter women who do not follow the dress code
standards.

Prosecution = coercion. End of story. Angry

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issuevoter Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 9200 The Great State of Mind Gender:	Re: Hijab, a symbol of oppression. Reply #167 - Oct 23^rd, 2022 at 9:16pm You Leftist will say anything to support your bogus concept of religious tolerance. Thousands of women in Iran say the Hijab is a symbol of oppression, but somehow they are wrong and complacent Lefitists hiding behind the Australian constitution are right.
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Frank

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Re: Hijab, a symbol of oppression.
Reply #168 - Oct 30^th, 2022 at 10:26am

Doctor who told married Muslim woman to remove veil handed nine-month suspension

A doctor who asked a Muslim woman to remove her veil three times has been suspended. Dr Keith Wolverson has been banned from working for nine months after a misconduct panel found his actions were 'deplorable'.

The medic, who has been a doctor for more than 25 years, committed a string of acts which amounted to misconduct while working in Staffordshire and Derby. It included asking the married woman to remove her face covering, while the doctor went on to criticise the English speaking skills of 15 of his patients.

"I think this is something people are frightened to talk about now, and I think this is a big problem, and we don't talk about these things and they get misconstrued." At a hearing earlier this year, Dr Wolverson - who qualified as a medical professional in 1996 - was found guilty of or admitted to a combined 17 of a total 28 charges of misconduct.

Some of the charges - all of which date from January to May, 2018 - related to his work at the Royal Stoke, both as a locum, or temporary doctor, and at Derby Urgent Care Centre. One incident saw him repeat a request to a Muslim woman, named as Mrs Q, to take off her veil three times during a consultation on May 13, 2018.

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John Smith Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 75019 Gender:	Re: Hijab, a symbol of oppression. Reply #169 - Oct 30^th, 2022 at 8:14pm freediver wrote on Oct 23^rd, 2022 at 8:52pm: Here it is John: Sometimes I think you're as stupid as bobby
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49364 At my desk.	Re: Hijab, a symbol of oppression. Reply #170 - Oct 30^th, 2022 at 8:59pm Do you agree with this John? Quote: Arguing the degree of agency women have in wearing the hijab in a free country like Australia is a fools errand, and adds nothing to the debate.
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Hijab, a symbol of oppression.
Reply #171 - Nov 3^rd, 2022 at 12:54pm

freediver wrote on Oct 23^rd, 2022 at 1:27pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 18^th, 2022 at 2:03pm:

Brilliant FD.

Let me guess - if someone asks you how you know a particular woman is being coerced to wear the hijab - your answer is "because she is being coerced" - right? FD logic at its finest.

Do you think the presence of a hijab per se should automatically be assumed to be suspicious vis a vis domestic abuse?

Do you think it matters whether they are coerced Gandalf, or this this just a rhetorical question?

Of course it matters FD - coercion is bad.

The question is, how are you going to find out? Do you simply look at a woman who is veiled and reflexively assume, without any other evidence, that she is being coerced? (hint: thats just a different way of asking you the same question I've been asking you for about a month).

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Frank

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Re: Hijab, a symbol of oppression.
Reply #172 - Nov 3^rd, 2022 at 1:25pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 3^rd, 2022 at 12:54pm:

freediver wrote on Oct 23^rd, 2022 at 1:27pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 18^th, 2022 at 2:03pm:

Brilliant FD.

Let me guess - if someone asks you how you know a particular woman is being coerced to wear the hijab - your answer is "because she is being coerced" - right? FD logic at its finest.

Do you think the presence of a hijab per se should automatically be assumed to be suspicious vis a vis domestic abuse?

Do you think it matters whether they are coerced Gandalf, or this this just a rhetorical question?

Of course it matters FD - coercion is bad.

The question is, how are you going to find out? Do you simply look at a woman who is veiled and reflexively assume, without any other evidence, that she is being coerced? (hint: thats just a different way of asking you the same question I've been asking you for about a month).

Strong community expectations and pressure to conform to the Muslim cultural norms of other countries rather than go the norms of their 'own' country, Australia - is that coercion? Frowning upon the cultural norms of their 'own' country, Australia, to which they CHOSE to come to, leaving their own Muslim countries behind - what's the word for that? Two faced insincerity? Opportunistic hypocrisy? Yeah-but-no-but?

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Hijab, a symbol of oppression. Reply #173 - Nov 3^rd, 2022 at 1:58pm Frank, people like you will never understand that even if in some instances the hijab symbolizes oppression or hypocricy or whatever - that is not a good justification for demonizing every single woman who wears the hijab.
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Frank

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Re: Hijab, a symbol of oppression.
Reply #174 - Nov 3^rd, 2022 at 2:39pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 3^rd, 2022 at 1:58pm:

Frank, people like you will never understand that even if in some instances the hijab symbolizes oppression or hypocricy or whatever - that is not a good justification for demonizing every single woman who wears the hijab.

Nobody is 'demonised'. Check the reflex emotionally incontinent language.

I think religious face covering like the burqa and niqab have no place in Australia, Europe, the Americas and I would ban them and let all would be immigrant know that they would have to discard them in Australia. Even in Muslim countries they are eternal reminders of how primitive and stuck Islam and its gruesome bearded sons are.

The hijab is a milder version of them but the psychology and the philosophy and religious DOGMA behind it is the same. I find it ridiculous and preposterous that young Muslim girls put it on but you can still see their panty lines under their tight jeans. It's a ridiculous, mindless anachronistic gesture. If someone mocks them or tells them they are stupid or ridiculous for wearing it is not demonisation.

And before do your customary switcheroo to the Jews or Hindus - the police are beating up Jews or Hindus for not going hasidic, or turbaned or wigged or whatever. But police in Muslim countries beat and even kill women for not wearing the hijab or burqa.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Hijab, a symbol of oppression. Reply #175 - Nov 7^th, 2022 at 9:48am Spot the mismatch: "Nobody is 'demonised'." "It's [the hijab] a ridiculous, mindless anachronistic gesture."
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issuevoter Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 9200 The Great State of Mind Gender:	Re: Hijab, a symbol of oppression. Reply #176 - Nov 7^th, 2022 at 12:32pm Its not just a symbol of oppression. Societies that demand women cover themselves, harbour several nasty traits including male chauvinism and sexual repression and associated guilt complexes.
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Frank

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Re: Hijab, a symbol of oppression.
Reply #177 - Nov 7^th, 2022 at 12:49pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 7^th, 2022 at 9:48am:

Spot the mismatch:

"Nobody is 'demonised'."

"It's [the hijab] a ridiculous, mindless anachronistic gesture."

You sound like a trans activist, gandi: any disagreement and deviation from your assessment of the hijab is 'demonisation.
No disagreement or rejection, no tittering or scorn. It's complete acceptance or demonisation. It's good or evil. Manichaeism lives on in the Islamic mind.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Hijab, a symbol of oppression.
Reply #178 - Nov 7^th, 2022 at 1:23pm

Frank wrote on Nov 7^th, 2022 at 12:49pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 7^th, 2022 at 9:48am:

Spot the mismatch:

"Nobody is 'demonised'."

"It's [the hijab] a ridiculous, mindless anachronistic gesture."

You sound like a trans activist, gandi: any disagreement and deviation from your assessment of the hijab is 'demonisation.
No disagreement or rejection, no tittering or scorn. It's complete acceptance or demonisation. It's good or evil. Manichaeism lives on in the Islamic mind.

Listen to yourself. You are the one here who rejects any disagreement over your assessment of the hijab - not me. Its "ridiculous", "anachronistic" and/or representative of repression - and nothing else. Its YOU who refuses to acknowledge any alternative - like the independent, educated woman who wears it freely, and has not a thought in the world about portraying oppression or causing offence. I on the other hand fully acknowledge that it can and absolutely is a symbol of oppression in many contexts. But just because I have the temerity to dare suggest it might not be the case in all situations - and that (shock horror), it shouldn't be assumed to be a symbol of oppression or anachronistic whenever you see it - I'm the one who gets labelled rigid and uncompromising on the topic. Go figure.

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« Last Edit: Nov 7^th, 2022 at 1:38pm by polite_gandalf »

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Frank

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Re: Hijab, a symbol of oppression.
Reply #179 - Nov 7^th, 2022 at 3:39pm

The hijab has meaning. What does it mean, and what does it mean to mean?

“The veil deliberately marks women as private and restricted property, nonpersons. The veil sets women apart from men and apart from the world; it restrains them, confines them, grooms them for docility. A mind can be cramped just as a body may be, and a Muslim veil blinkers both your vision and your destiny. It is the mark of a kind of apartheid, not the domination of a race but of a sex.”

― Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Also, don't signal to me in the public sphere that you are a devout this or that. Keep it to yourself. In an orchestra everyone wears the same plain black clothes because what is important is the music they make together, not the various expressions of their individual devotions or beliefs. That is NOT why they are there. And so the same way to a large extent with the public space. Keep your beliefs to yourself, dont parade them every time you leave the house.

Also, If I went to a Muslim country you would expect me and my travelling party to observe and respect the local values, customs, ways of dressing and comportment. But that expectation, strangely, doesn't extend to Muslims visiting or living in Western infidel countries. Then it is the infidels who must observe and accommodate the Muslims' way of dressing and comportment. The West must accommodate you, you must not accommodate the West, not even in the West.

That's what the hijab means and means to mean.

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« Last Edit: Nov 7^th, 2022 at 6:08pm by Frank »

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