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Poll closed Poll
Question: Will the referendum be voted in?
*** This poll has now closed ***


No    
  42 (75.0%)
Yes    
  14 (25.0%)




Total votes: 56
« Last Modified by: Redmond Neck on: Feb 25th, 2023 at 11:17am »

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The Aboriginal Voice referendum (Read 99608 times)
Frank
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #375 - Dec 13th, 2022 at 10:01pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on Dec 13th, 2022 at 4:18pm:
Captain Nemo wrote on Dec 13th, 2022 at 2:07pm:
Albo has confirmed that the "actual model" of how The Voice would operate will NOT be decided until AFTER the referendum.

Stuff that.

This approach is dumb and may in fact lead to a "NO" vote getting up.

What a dumbarse Albo is. Shocked


Funny, this was the exact approach taken when the High Court was established in the Constitution.  Why was it OK then and now isn't OK?  Is it because the recipients of this approach are Indigenous Australians and those who received the benefits of the High Court were white fellas?  Oh, dearie, dearie, me, you're a suspicious chap, Nemo.  How are Indigenous Australians less trust worthy than White Fellas?  How are White Fellas more trustworthy?  Tsk, tsk, tsk...   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

No, it's not that you pig ignorant shifty thicko.

There was an established precedent for constitutional courts.  There is no established constitutional precedent for a race based advisory body to parliament.

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #376 - Dec 14th, 2022 at 11:24am
 
Frank wrote on Dec 13th, 2022 at 3:26pm:
According to RA, ‘Too often, our history covers up the brutal nature of colonisation, and leaves out the resilience and contribution by First Peoples. The effective advocacy by Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples and the three decades of the reconciliation process, have all been part of a relearning of Australian history in which the myth of peaceful settlement by courageous European pioneers is making way for a more truthful representation…. A national effort across these areas should involve collaborating to re-story, reconcile and heal, including through local reconciliation committees, advocacy, and partnerships across the Australian community. Such community truth-telling can underpin and support a widespread movement of truth-telling and build understanding of our shared history, (Truth Telling and Reconciliation, RA 2018 p.19). For RA ‘truth-telling’ seems to mean unequivocal acceptance of their version of Australian history.

In 2016 the Centre for Independent Studies published a report which found that there are 1,082 separate programs addressing one aspect or another of Aboriginal disadvantage (Mapping the Indigenous program and funding maze, Sarah Hudson).

Over the last decade, the Productivity Commission’s Indigenous Expenditure Reports (IER) have consistently shown that total Commonwealth, state and territory government per capita expenditure on Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people is approximately double the per capita expenditure on non-Indigenous Australians, (Indigenous Affairs 2019/20 Budget overview. James Haughton). There are many reasons for greater allocation of financial resources to Aboriginal citizens than to the rest of the population. The most obvious is that of need. Aboriginal disadvantage is well documented. Not so well documented are the thousands of projects which are designed to remedy the inequality. In its 2019/20 report the National Indigenous Australians Agency claimed that, ‘The NIAA funds more than 1,100 organisations through the Indigenous Advancement Strategy (IAS) and Aboriginals Benefit Account (ABA) to deliver over 2,000 activities to improve the lives of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples. The majority of these funds are to Indigenous organisations’. It also found that, ‘93 per cent of relevant IAS activities were assessed as having core service delivery which met or exceeded requirements’. One might ask why, if the NIAA is doing so well, it had such a poor impact upon the ‘closing the gap’ targets?

There is rarely any serious media investigation of the thousands of organisations which all claim they are doing a great job on indigenous matters. Nor is there any real acknowledgement of the billions that the government has poured into helping remote disadvantaged Aboriginal communities. Instead we get an unending litany of complaints about governmental failures and we get people like Chelsea Watego being paid by you to tell all of us what a racist society her people have to live in. The idea that establishing yet another organisation is going to solve all the problems in Aboriginal society which the thousands of other schemes have failed to remedy, without working out why the previous ones fail, is stupid beyond belief.
...
Reconciliation requires a genuine two way acknowledgement of past injustices and present problems. What we have at the moment is a clamorous call for non-Aboriginal Australia to accept a distorted and one-sided version of the sources of the current problems in Aboriginal Australia. ..... our failure to have a genuinely open debate on the source of current problems in Aboriginal society will ensure that establishing yet another organisation to solve those problems will achieve nothing.
https://www.spectator.com.au/2022/12/reconciliation-or-capitulation/

Look at moe, Kimmie, look at moi, I have one word for you.

Corruption.


Professor Watego says: Reconciliation requires a genuine two way acknowledgement of past injustices and present problems.

Indeed, but part of that 2-way process requires acknowledgement that the hunter-gatherer economy and associated culture is gone forever  ("gone with the wind" - like the eponymous slave-based economy of the US South)......an extremely difficult acknowledgement for the survivors of the destruction of that culture to make.

All war is calamitous; the task is to learn and move forward to a better world...
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #377 - Dec 14th, 2022 at 1:16pm
 
Cavemen had the same natural resources at their disposal as we have today, and the difference between their standard of living and ours is a difference between the knowledge they could bring to bear on those resources and the knowledge used today.
Thomas Sowell

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #378 - Dec 14th, 2022 at 4:03pm
 
Frank wrote on Dec 14th, 2022 at 1:16pm:
Cavemen had the same natural resources at their disposal as we have today, and the difference between their standard of living and ours is a difference between the knowledge they could bring to bear on those resources and the knowledge used today.
Thomas Sowell


The problem fools like Sowell ignore is cavemen all had the same "standard of living"; whereas today people are living in poverty amidst plenty. 
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #379 - Dec 14th, 2022 at 4:46pm
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 14th, 2022 at 4:03pm:
Frank wrote on Dec 14th, 2022 at 1:16pm:
Cavemen had the same natural resources at their disposal as we have today, and the difference between their standard of living and ours is a difference between the knowledge they could bring to bear on those resources and the knowledge used today.
Thomas Sowell


The problem fools like Sowell ignore is cavemen all had the same "standard of living"; whereas today people are living in poverty amidst plenty. 

Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #380 - Dec 14th, 2022 at 6:15pm
 
Frank wrote on Dec 14th, 2022 at 4:46pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 14th, 2022 at 4:03pm:
Frank wrote on Dec 14th, 2022 at 1:16pm:
Cavemen had the same natural resources at their disposal as we have today, and the difference between their standard of living and ours is a difference between the knowledge they could bring to bear on those resources and the knowledge used today.
Thomas Sowell


The problem fools like Sowell ignore is cavemen all had the same "standard of living"; whereas today people are living in poverty amidst plenty. 

Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy



Not a joke, when you are homeless (100,000 every night in Oz), or among the 1 in 3 kids in the UK or 1 in 6 kids in Oz living in poverty, or the c. 10% permanently un - or under-employed in Oz...
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #381 - Dec 16th, 2022 at 10:22am
 
The Voice

1. would be a race-based national institution embedded in the Constitution. So every argument against is, by definition anti-racist and every argument for it IS an argument for racism.

2. would be an anti-democratic abomination, not even Aborigines would be democratically represented on it. It would be even more of an unrepresentative swill than the Senate.

3. There is no demarcation between laws affecting Aborigines and laws not affecting them. Every law affects Aborigines so the Voice will have no limit as to what it pronounce on. Consulting an unrepresentative Aborigines Voice on every law will put the breaks on government.

4. What happens when democratically elected Aboriginal parliamentarians disagree with the undemocratically selected Voice Aborigines?  Will the High Court adjudicate?



Why does a race based undemocratic advisory body like this need to be in the Constitution? Why not legislate ut and set it up and see what happens? What is the point of the referendum and Constitutional inclusion? That is the evil hoof here. There would be no need for referendum and constitutional change if this was about practicalities. But it isn't.



With none of the details on the table, this “debate” has been limited to feel-good assertions from the “yes” side of the argument and increasing concern from the “no” side about the government’s refusal to explain what it is planning.  It looks like the main goal is to keep voters in the dark. We will not be provided with an official case for either side of this referendum and will instead be subjected to an “education” campaign.
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #382 - Dec 16th, 2022 at 11:38am
 
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #383 - Dec 16th, 2022 at 12:05pm
 
Frank wrote on Dec 14th, 2022 at 1:16pm:
Cavemen had the same natural resources at their disposal as we have today, and the difference between their standard of living and ours is a difference between the knowledge they could bring to bear on those resources and the knowledge used today.
Thomas Sowell




Comparative Prosperity 101 - a Grappler Free University concept developed by Professor Grappler... who after owning two homes and making mistakes with women, was living on these streets 22 years ago... you can't tell me anything ......and now is back considering a 50+ foot yacht and a nice bit of land in The Azores.... so FYA!!

A Boonger living on the beach up north with a house to go home to every night, sandy beaches drinking rum every day and night, catching fish on the morning tide with government supplied gear, with an established harem and control over women, and free to choose what he will do on any given day is far more prosperous than the Modern Caveman cited here as living on the streets and waiting for the royalty dimi to come in without any tax etc ...... yet their government income/rent/dimi is the same .......................................... a streetie would be lucky to even remember pussy .... or a good feed.. or sleeping on anything but cold concrete or under a tree in the rain ........ or even seeing anything worth trying to steal.... and constantly subject to official and unofficial attention day and night..... and living down among the dead men ... the skels..... in that glass gutter from which they can see everyone else's feet passing them by above...

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #384 - Dec 16th, 2022 at 12:17pm
 
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Dec 16th, 2022 at 12:05pm:
Frank wrote on Dec 14th, 2022 at 1:16pm:
Cavemen had the same natural resources at their disposal as we have today, and the difference between their standard of living and ours is a difference between the knowledge they could bring to bear on those resources and the knowledge used today.
Thomas Sowell




Comparative Prosperity 101 - a Grappler Free University concept developed by Professor Grappler...


I see you haven't learn one thing I have brought to your attention,  concerning how money is created.

sigh...but the flat earth delusion (and later, the earth centric delusion) took centuries to dispel.....

Quote:
A Boonger living on the beach up north with a house to go home to every night, sandy beaches drinking rum every day and night, catching fish on the morning tide, with an established harem and control over women, and free to choose what he will do on any given day is far more prosperous than the Modern Caveman cited here as living on the streets.... yet their government income/rent/dimi is the same .......................................... a streetie would be lucky to even remember pussy .... or a good feed.. or sleeping on anything but cold concrete...


which proves Sowell's comments are wrong:  before 1788 , no indigenous was subject to such "poverty", because he had his woman and his fire and his food, unlike today's white "streeties".


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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #385 - Dec 16th, 2022 at 2:20pm
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 16th, 2022 at 12:17pm:
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Dec 16th, 2022 at 12:05pm:
Frank wrote on Dec 14th, 2022 at 1:16pm:
Cavemen had the same natural resources at their disposal as we have today, and the difference between their standard of living and ours is a difference between the knowledge they could bring to bear on those resources and the knowledge used today.
Thomas Sowell




Comparative Prosperity 101 - a Grappler Free University concept developed by Professor Grappler...


I see you haven't learn one thing I have brought to your attention,  concerning how money is created.

sigh...but the flat earth delusion (and later, the earth centric delusion) took centuries to dispel.....

Quote:
A Boonger living on the beach up north with a house to go home to every night, sandy beaches drinking rum every day and night, catching fish on the morning tide, with an established harem and control over women, and free to choose what he will do on any given day is far more prosperous than the Modern Caveman cited here as living on the streets.... yet their government income/rent/dimi is the same .......................................... a streetie would be lucky to even remember pussy .... or a good feed.. or sleeping on anything but cold concrete...


which proves Sowell's comments are wrong:  before 1788 , no indigenous was subject to such "poverty", because he had his woman and his fire and his food, unlike today's white "streeties".




Correct - and now your education begins again - it is only NOW that he/she considers self to be relatively impoverished...... keep thinking.... I try hard but you are slow to bite on reality... so all this guff about 'gaps' and such is meaningless ...... unless that Abo wants to live the White Man's high life without the work involved...... he should be happy in his pristine environment surrounded by plenty in both the traditional and the modern sense... The Last Tycoon ...
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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #386 - Dec 16th, 2022 at 3:06pm
 
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Dec 16th, 2022 at 2:20pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 16th, 2022 at 12:17pm:
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Dec 16th, 2022 at 12:05pm:
Frank wrote on Dec 14th, 2022 at 1:16pm:
Cavemen had the same natural resources at their disposal as we have today, and the difference between their standard of living and ours is a difference between the knowledge they could bring to bear on those resources and the knowledge used today.
Thomas Sowell




Comparative Prosperity 101 - a Grappler Free University concept developed by Professor Grappler...


I see you haven't learn one thing I have brought to your attention,  concerning how money is created.

sigh...but the flat earth delusion (and later, the earth centric delusion) took centuries to dispel.....

Quote:
A Boonger living on the beach up north with a house to go home to every night, sandy beaches drinking rum every day and night, catching fish on the morning tide, with an established harem and control over women, and free to choose what he will do on any given day is far more prosperous than the Modern Caveman cited here as living on the streets.... yet their government income/rent/dimi is the same .......................................... a streetie would be lucky to even remember pussy .... or a good feed.. or sleeping on anything but cold concrete...


which proves Sowell's comments are wrong:  before 1788 , no indigenous was subject to such "poverty", because he had his woman and his fire and his food, unlike today's white "streeties".




Correct - and now your education begins again - it is only NOW that he/she considers self to be relatively impoverished...... keep thinking.... I try hard but you are slow to bite on reality... so all this guff about 'gaps' and such is meaningless ...... unless that Abo wants to live the White Man's high life without the work involved...... he should be happy in his pristine environment surrounded by plenty in both the traditional and the modern sense... The Last Tycoon ...


The highlighted: we agree on this  (so my education is 'up to speed' in this regard); but you forget a million whites are also involuntarily long-term unemployed in the neoliberal economy, and hence NOT living "the White Man's high life", so your phrase "without the work involved"  is misplaced in that sentence, because the work isn't available , as attested by the million whites who are also merely surviving  on the dole ....though more successfully than their black counterparts, given white unemployment rates are lower than  black unemployment rates.
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #387 - Dec 16th, 2022 at 6:08pm
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 16th, 2022 at 3:06pm:
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Dec 16th, 2022 at 2:20pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 16th, 2022 at 12:17pm:
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Dec 16th, 2022 at 12:05pm:
Frank wrote on Dec 14th, 2022 at 1:16pm:
Cavemen had the same natural resources at their disposal as we have today, and the difference between their standard of living and ours is a difference between the knowledge they could bring to bear on those resources and the knowledge used today.
Thomas Sowell




Comparative Prosperity 101 - a Grappler Free University concept developed by Professor Grappler...


I see you haven't learn one thing I have brought to your attention,  concerning how money is created.

sigh...but the flat earth delusion (and later, the earth centric delusion) took centuries to dispel.....

Quote:
A Boonger living on the beach up north with a house to go home to every night, sandy beaches drinking rum every day and night, catching fish on the morning tide, with an established harem and control over women, and free to choose what he will do on any given day is far more prosperous than the Modern Caveman cited here as living on the streets.... yet their government income/rent/dimi is the same .......................................... a streetie would be lucky to even remember pussy .... or a good feed.. or sleeping on anything but cold concrete...


which proves Sowell's comments are wrong:  before 1788 , no indigenous was subject to such "poverty", because he had his woman and his fire and his food, unlike today's white "streeties".




Correct - and now your education begins again - it is only NOW that he/she considers self to be relatively impoverished...... keep thinking.... I try hard but you are slow to bite on reality... so all this guff about 'gaps' and such is meaningless ...... unless that Abo wants to live the White Man's high life without the work involved...... he should be happy in his pristine environment surrounded by plenty in both the traditional and the modern sense... The Last Tycoon ...


The highlighted: we agree on this  (so my education is 'up to speed' in this regard); but you forget a million whites are also involuntarily long-term unemployed in the neoliberal economy, and hence NOT living "the White Man's high life", so your phrase "without the work involved"  is misplaced in that sentence, because the work isn't available , as attested by the million whites who are also merely surviving  on the dole ....though more successfully than their black counterparts, given white unemployment rates are lower than  black unemployment rates.


Not my point - the point is that some wish to live the best life that they can see others enjoying, but without doing the hard yards to get it - they simply see it and want it, and turn that quest into some 'right'.

It's like Andrea Dworkin and looking through a window at a pastry shop or whatever, and saying this was like being a woman etc and looking at all the goodies but not being allowed to touch them... mind you, she had a middle class well-off upbringing with education paid by family etc, all for free - didn't stop her from going mad, though.

Same thing - we get these people who do not wish to lift a finger who figure they are entitled for whatever reason, their colour, their 'culture', their 'dispossession' or whatever - to the same as the top rungs get here without having to strive for it.  they are even jealous of and hostile to their own who've made it.....look at Warren Mundine, Jacinta Price, and a few others and how they are regarded and treated by their 'own'.

Paul Keating, in a rare broken clock moment, once said to an Aboriginal bloke that his people were like crabs in a bucket - every time one tried to climb out the others would drag  him/her back.

I personally know that one, coming from a savagely dysfunctional family... you see, the difference between you and I is that while you are mired in theory after theory - I've lived and experienced everything of which I speak...... and that is one huge difference...
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #388 - Dec 16th, 2022 at 6:47pm
 
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Dec 16th, 2022 at 6:08pm:
Not my point - the point is that some wish to live the best life that they can see others enjoying,


a fantasy in which we all indulge no doubt...

Quote:
but without doing the hard yards to get it -


Well, we know that IS fantasy..

Quote:
they simply see it and want it, and turn that quest into some 'right'.


You are blind to the reality that 10% of the population is permanently involuntarily un/underemployed and hence disadvantaged, in the current neoliberal economy.

Quote:
Same thing - we get these people who do not wish to lift a finger who figure they are entitled for whatever reason, their colour, their 'culture', their 'dispossession' or whatever - to the same as the top rungs get here without having to strive for it.
 

Refuted above; striving is one thing, but landing a job is another, when there are 10% permanently un/underemployed.  

Quote:
they are even jealous of and hostile to their own who've made it.....look at Warren Mundine, Jacinta Price, and a few others and how they are regarded and treated by their 'own'.
  yes, they succeeded in the competitive neoliberal private-sector job market; not even all whites can do that. 

Quote:
Paul Keating, in a rare broken clock moment, once said to an Aboriginal bloke that his people were like crabs in a bucket - every time one tried to climb out the others would drag  him/her back.
 

Keating also noted "we are the ones who smashed their culture" ...like all neoliberal market ideologues, Paul could be self-contradictory at times. Blacks still harbour a h-g 'commie" share-all ethos, hence his silly observation about crabs.

Quote:
I personally know that one, coming from a savagely dysfunctional family... you see, the difference between you and I is that while you are mired in theory after theory - I've lived and experienced everything of which I speak...... and that is one huge difference...


Nah...you are simply blindly, if successfully, living in the 'survival of the fittest' neoliberal competitive job market, blissfully ignorant of the fact there are alternatives to such disadvantage-entrenching job markets.   
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #389 - Dec 16th, 2022 at 8:26pm
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 16th, 2022 at 6:47pm:
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Dec 16th, 2022 at 6:08pm:
Not my point - the point is that some wish to live the best life that they can see others enjoying,


a fantasy in which we all indulge no doubt...
Yes - but we don't demand it as a 'right' or kick up a fuss or go to war to get it..


Quote:
but without doing the hard yards to get it -


Well, we know that IS fantasy..

Quote:
they simply see it and want it, and turn that quest into some 'right'.


You are blind to the reality that 10% of the population is permanently involuntarily un/underemployed and hence disadvantaged, in the current neoliberal economy.
Told you before - been there, done that - clearly you do not read what I post.


Quote:
Same thing - we get these people who do not wish to lift a finger who figure they are entitled for whatever reason, their colour, their 'culture', their 'dispossession' or whatever - to the same as the top rungs get here without having to strive for it.
 

Refuted above; striving is one thing, but landing a job is another, when there are 10% permanently un/underemployed.  
Nothing refuted above but your assertions.


Quote:
they are even jealous of and hostile to their own who've made it.....look at Warren Mundine, Jacinta Price, and a few others and how they are regarded and treated by their 'own'.
  yes, they succeeded in the competitive neoliberal private-sector job market; not even all whites can do that. 
the POINT is the way they jump on them


Quote:
Paul Keating, in a rare broken clock moment, once said to an Aboriginal bloke that his people were like crabs in a bucket - every time one tried to climb out the others would drag  him/her back.
 

Keating also noted "we are the ones who smashed their culture" ...like all neoliberal market ideologues, Paul could be self-contradictory at times. Blacks still harbour a h-g 'commie" share-all ethos, hence his silly observation about crabs.
anoither post sinks that- 'we' didn't smash their culture - they had no culture to smash


Quote:
I personally know that one, coming from a savagely dysfunctional family... you see, the difference between you and I is that while you are mired in theory after theory - I've lived and experienced everything of which I speak...... and that is one huge difference...


Nah...you are simply blindly, if successfully, living in the 'survival of the fittest' neoliberal competitive job market, blissfully ignorant of the fact there are alternatives to such disadvantage-entrenching job markets.   
... and your money to sit here and pontificate that comes from?????



As easy as Lefty was.. poor soul - he always was a little too high-strung...
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