Australian Politics Forum - The Aboriginal Voice referendum

MeisterEckhart

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #30 - Oct 5^th, 2022 at 10:20pm

Brian Ross wrote on Oct 5^th, 2022 at 10:12pm:

The Australian "Voice" must go to the Australian people to decide if it is to be included in the Constitution. All the bullshit that is preceding that is just that, bullshit. Scare tactics promulgated by Racists who fear any power being accorded to the Indigenous. Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

Whose voice? Are all aboriginals the same? No differences in customs, culture, values, language, or expectations?

The Maori are also tribal and have very different attitudes towards each other. They are not one people.

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #31 - Oct 5^th, 2022 at 10:42pm

Jeez - got a forum on SBS (I think) all one 'side' (there are no sides between Australians - we's all on the one side, and so it will remain) .. and even they admitted in the fancy preamble that there were 250 languages and 800 dialects and all these tribal groups scattered across the huge country, numbering people around 750,000 by their estimate.

So clearly there was no national government, no written language, nothing but this 'spiritual relationship' held by small tribal groups in any given area, something that every single society since the dawn of man has had to land and country and culture and all the rest. It is nothing special, and it resonates with everyone, since every individual from any culture has had the same spiritual relationship to its own - including now where they all are in Australia.

Is there a single person in this country now who does not have a 'spiritual relationship' with his or her land, and with the culture in which he or she lives etc, and would not equally benefit from the spiritual experience of climbing Mt Warning for sunrise etc?

There is nothing special about Indigenous relationship to the land etc.

That was supplanted by a different kind of culture over two hundred years ago (why they harp on 1770 is beyond me - apart from Captain Cook claiming it for the British Empire - a claim that has never been overturned either legally or by force until Federation created Australia itself - the Frontier Wars of Australia failed to displace that claim), and at that time there was no organised government to object or replace and no national sovereignty to overturn.

Settlement was in 1788.

Each tribal group surrendered its sovereignty one at a time... every single Indigenous person has stated at some time that they are an Australian citizen... so there is no argument about sovereignty.

Where is the argument today? I have suggested that each family be given a plot of land and left to it..... but it is not possible, in the modern day and age, for a tiny minority group in some ancient tribal land to just claim it all back.

P.S. Couple of them are whiter than I am with little discernible features ... unless they said they were Abo you wouldn't know.... and one has the tan machine tan..... it's now part of being a TV presenter for Abo affairs, this orange tint........

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« Last Edit: Oct 5^th, 2022 at 11:07pm by Grappler Truth Teller Feller »

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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MeisterEckhart

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #32 - Oct 6^th, 2022 at 7:01am

Another issue with the infantile over-simplification of a single voice for the aboriginal peoples is that it ignores the complex relationships between aboriginal mobs (clans/tribes/peoples/nations).

Who will speak for them as one? They do not all co-exist as one people anywhere in Australia (and never have) but via negotiations and agreements brokered by their respective elders.

Throw into the mix the concept that an elite group will speak for all aboriginals is guaranteed to introduce conflicts and resentment among aboriginal groups and, highly likely, a corruption component.

This is the core problem with the uber-simplification of the voice managing all the conflicts between aboriginal and non-aboriginal peoples - one voice to solve them all - presumes that the aboriginal peoples are not fully human - i.e. that they are not capable of the human capacity for divergent culture and interests and do not bear the burden of the expression of instinctive human self-interest - that they are primitive sub-humans, who can live in relative singular harmony like herd animals.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #33 - Oct 6^th, 2022 at 7:49am

Brian Ross wrote on Oct 5^th, 2022 at 10:12pm:

Hopefully there won't be the level of deceit that was evident in the Treaty of Waitangi. The British lied to the Maori about what it contained and supplied them with a different copy of the document with separate clauses. This is where most of the problems with the Treaty originated with and it wasn't corrected until the late 20th century because of a court case which overturned the British version and replaced it with the Maori version.

From what I've read, you are either unaware of the misinformation you've posted here or posted it anyway.

Can you show me a link where the British lied?

What I did find was issues with the translation of key concepts - sovereignty being the most significant.

Maoris did not have a word for or a concept of sovereignty, so the translators of the day chose the closest approximations to it in the Maori language which, in 1840, was very different to what late 20th-century/ 21st century Maoris understand the term now.

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Redmond Neck Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 21644 ACT Gender:	Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum Reply #34 - Oct 6^th, 2022 at 8:04am Well interesting to look at our vote so far on here makes me doubt the referendum will get up in every state and nationally as is required for a referendum to succeed.
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Frank Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 46774 Gender:	Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum Reply #35 - Oct 6^th, 2022 at 9:36am Why not an Asian voice? Women's Voice? Youth voice? Disabled voice? Non English speaking voice? Seniors voice? Five + generation Anglo pioneers' voice? Descendants of the First fleet voice? Muslim voice? Indian voice? Irish voice? So much discrimination, so much silencing.
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MeisterEckhart

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #36 - Oct 6^th, 2022 at 9:41am

Frank wrote on Oct 6^th, 2022 at 9:36am:

Why not an Asian voice?
Women's Voice?
Youth voice?
Disabled voice?
Non English speaking voice?
Seniors voice?
Five + generation Anglo pioneers' voice?
Descendants of the First fleet voice?
Muslim voice?
Indian voice?
Irish voice?

So much discrimination, so much silencing.

So many voices, so little legislation.

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Brian Ross

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #37 - Oct 6^th, 2022 at 11:53am

MeisterEckhart wrote on Oct 6^th, 2022 at 7:49am:

Brian Ross wrote on Oct 5^th, 2022 at 10:12pm:

Hopefully there won't be the level of deceit that was evident in the Treaty of Waitangi. The British lied to the Maori about what it contained and supplied them with a different copy of the document with separate clauses. This is where most of the problems with the Treaty originated with and it wasn't corrected until the late 20th century because of a court case which overturned the British version and replaced it with the Maori version.

From what I've read, you are either unaware of the misinformation you've posted here or posted it anyway.

Can you show me a link where the British lied?

What I did find was issues with the translation of key concepts - sovereignty being the most significant.

Maoris did not have a word for or a concept of sovereignty, so the translators of the day chose the closest approximations to it in the Maori language which, in 1840, was very different to what late 20th-century/ 21st century Maoris understand the term now.

Treaty of Waitangi claims and settlements explains it all, far better than I could.

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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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issuevoter Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 9200 The Great State of Mind Gender:	Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum Reply #38 - Oct 6^th, 2022 at 12:57pm Its an interesting question, but as the proposal has not been spelled out, it would be hard to guess the outcome. If Australians are going to vote for unspecified amendments to the constitution, they are more trusting of Canberra than I thought.
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MeisterEckhart

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #39 - Oct 6^th, 2022 at 1:34pm

issuevoter wrote on Oct 6^th, 2022 at 12:57pm:

Its an interesting question, but as the proposal has not been spelled out, it would be hard to guess the outcome.
If Australians are going to vote for unspecified amendments to the constitution, they are more trusting of Canberra than I thought.

The thing is a political farce that credits aboriginal peoples not with the complexity of being human, but denigrates them as like-minded herd animals to which a single voice can be applied.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #40 - Oct 6^th, 2022 at 5:57pm

Brian Ross wrote on Oct 6^th, 2022 at 11:53am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Oct 6^th, 2022 at 7:49am:

Brian Ross wrote on Oct 5^th, 2022 at 10:12pm:

Hopefully there won't be the level of deceit that was evident in the Treaty of Waitangi. The British lied to the Maori about what it contained and supplied them with a different copy of the document with separate clauses. This is where most of the problems with the Treaty originated with and it wasn't corrected until the late 20th century because of a court case which overturned the British version and replaced it with the Maori version.

From what I've read, you are either unaware of the misinformation you've posted here or posted it anyway.

Can you show me a link where the British lied?

What I did find was issues with the translation of key concepts - sovereignty being the most significant.

Maoris did not have a word for or a concept of sovereignty, so the translators of the day chose the closest approximations to it in the Maori language which, in 1840, was very different to what late 20th-century/ 21st century Maoris understand the term now.

Treaty of Waitangi claims and settlements explains it all, far better than I could.

British / Maori negotiations in 1839-1841 were long and tedious. Maori culture had long ceremonies where, through oral tradition - being preliterate, their ancestral bloodlines were recited and other ceremonies to identify themselves in a tribal group.

Add to that the rudimentary abilities of translators from English to the Maori language (the translators were not expert linguists, they were settlers who could speak conversational Maori). The nebulous and untranslatable concepts such as sovereignty were beyond their ability to translate appropriately and beyond the capacity of Maoris to comprehend.

Rough and ready, near enough good enough, would have been the order of the day but not driven by a deceitful attempt to steal from or lie to the Maori people - the translators were respected and trusted by the Maoris of the area - How else would they have been able to learn the language at all if not for earned respect and trust?

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Frank

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #41 - Oct 6^th, 2022 at 6:42pm

Brian Ross wrote on Oct 6^th, 2022 at 11:53am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Oct 6^th, 2022 at 7:49am:

Brian Ross wrote on Oct 5^th, 2022 at 10:12pm:

Hopefully there won't be the level of deceit that was evident in the Treaty of Waitangi. The British lied to the Maori about what it contained and supplied them with a different copy of the document with separate clauses. This is where most of the problems with the Treaty originated with and it wasn't corrected until the late 20th century because of a court case which overturned the British version and replaced it with the Maori version.

From what I've read, you are either unaware of the misinformation you've posted here or posted it anyway.

Can you show me a link where the British lied?

What I did find was issues with the translation of key concepts - sovereignty being the most significant.

Maoris did not have a word for or a concept of sovereignty, so the translators of the day chose the closest approximations to it in the Maori language which, in 1840, was very different to what late 20th-century/ 21st century Maoris understand the term now.

Treaty of Waitangi claims and settlements explains it all, far better than I could.

Doktor Bbbwian - Wiki can explain what Doctor Bbwian thinks (??!) better than Doktor Bbwian can. Do you vant to know vat Doktor Bbbwian finks? It's in the Wiki!!!

The Wiki knw Doktor Bbbwian's mind than he/ze/ik knows him/zer/ikz self.

Roll ze eyez!!!

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Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.

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MeisterEckhart Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 12637 Gender:	Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum Reply #42 - Oct 6^th, 2022 at 7:56pm Anyone who still believes that a single voice can represent multiple peoples need only look to Italy to disabuse themselves of that belief. The Italian 'people' have been governed by 69 governments since WW2, just over 1 per year.
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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #43 - Oct 6^th, 2022 at 10:27pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on Oct 6^th, 2022 at 7:56pm:

Anyone who still believes that a single voice can represent multiple peoples need only look to Italy to disabuse themselves of that belief.

The Italian 'people' have been governed by 69 governments since WW2, just over 1 per year.

And Italians are as varied as the Abled Bodied Originals here were... some areas don't even speak the same language, and an Italian from one area might not be understood in another or in Sicily.

Same applies to any 'treaty' - you can't have separate treaties with 1050 tribal and dialect groups, all separate and often not agreeing with one another... same as this silly voice proposal.

A recipe for chaos, and then throw in the obstructionist tactics of any such 'voice' over any issue they feel is worth their time.

NO thanks... sorry to any Able Bodied Original relatives who are upset, but that's it.

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Karnal

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #44 - Oct 6^th, 2022 at 11:03pm

Frank wrote on Oct 6^th, 2022 at 9:36am:

Why not an Asian voice?
Women's Voice?
Youth voice?
Disabled voice?
Non English speaking voice?
Seniors voice?
Five + generation Anglo pioneers' voice?
Descendants of the First fleet voice?
Muslim voice?
Indian voice?
Irish voice?

So much discrimination, so much silencing.

A voice for the dead?

The cadavers united will never be defeated, no?

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Poll
Question: Will the referendum be voted in?
* This poll has now closed *
No 42 (75.0%) Yes 14 (25.0%) Total votes: 56 « Last Modified by: Redmond Neck on: Feb 25^th, 2023 at 11:17am »