Australian Politics Forum - The Aboriginal Voice referendum

thegreatdivide

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #1185 - Mar 18^th, 2023 at 9:48am

SadKangaroo wrote on Mar 17^th, 2023 at 2:09pm:

I've been away from this poo hole for another few weeks or months, I wasn't counting, can anyone fill me in to save 78 pages of bullshit, what are the current lies being used to justify the No vote?

Is the voice still going to hand Indigenous Australians power over everyone else?

Is it still racism to recognise them and the atrocities done to them in the constitution?

Should we still be sending the army into the Alice to commit genocide against them?

Have y'all moved on from the crap you were spouting back then?

The main argument of the No case boils down to the mistaken view that we are all responsible for our own achievement in life.

But the Yes case doesn't really address that issue either.

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SadKangaroo

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #1186 - Mar 18^th, 2023 at 10:58am

aquascoot wrote on Mar 17^th, 2023 at 6:51pm:

SadKangaroo wrote on Mar 17^th, 2023 at 2:09pm:

I've been away from this poo hole for another few weeks or months, I wasn't counting, can anyone fill me in to save 78 pages of bullshit, what are the current lies being used to justify the No vote?

Is the voice still going to hand Indigenous Australians power over everyone else?

Is it still racism to recognise them and the atrocities done to them in the constitution?

Should we still be sending the army into the Alice to commit genocide against them?

Have y'all moved on from the crap you were spouting back then?

oh diddums.

have you come back to announce what a good person you are.

how cute

As it stands I would vote no, but that may change once more details come out.

BUT, I'm wondering if there are any legitimate reasons like that in the last 78 pages?

Is it really that triggering, bitch?

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SadKangaroo

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #1187 - Mar 18^th, 2023 at 11:01am

Gnads wrote on Mar 17^th, 2023 at 6:41pm:

SadKangaroo wrote on Mar 17^th, 2023 at 2:09pm:

I've been away from this poo hole for another few weeks or months, I wasn't counting, can anyone fill me in to save 78 pages of bullshit, what are the current lies being used to justify the No vote?

Is the voice still going to hand Indigenous Australians power over everyone else?

Is it still racism to recognise them and the atrocities done to them in the constitution?

Should we still be sending the army into the Alice to commit genocide against them?

Have y'all moved on from the crap you were spouting back then?

Pack your bags &

f

uc

k

back off.

There is no logical & sane reason to vote for a constitutional amendment based on race.... period!

You are just another led by the nose softcock without a real clue.

So, you're still being a hyperbolic sh

it

c

unt

?

Good to know.

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Gnads

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #1188 - Mar 18^th, 2023 at 11:58am

SadKangaroo wrote on Mar 18^th, 2023 at 11:01am:

Gnads wrote on Mar 17^th, 2023 at 6:41pm:

SadKangaroo wrote on Mar 17^th, 2023 at 2:09pm:

I've been away from this poo hole for another few weeks or months, I wasn't counting, can anyone fill me in to save 78 pages of bullshit, what are the current lies being used to justify the No vote?

Is the voice still going to hand Indigenous Australians power over everyone else?

Is it still racism to recognise them and the atrocities done to them in the constitution?

Should we still be sending the army into the Alice to commit genocide against them?

Have y'all moved on from the crap you were spouting back then?

Pack your bags &

f

uc

k

back off.

There is no logical & sane reason to vote for a constitutional amendment based on race.... period!

You are just another led by the nose softcock without a real clue.

So, you're still being a hyperbolic sh

it

c

unt

?

Good to know.

You'd know you seat the throne for softcock shyte tnucs.

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"When you are dead, you do not know you are dead. It's only painful and difficult for others. The same applies when you are stupid." ~ Ricky Gervais

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Frank Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 44721 Gender:	Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum Reply #1189 - Mar 18^th, 2023 at 12:26pm SadKangaroo wrote on Mar 18^th, 2023 at 10:58am: As it stands I would vote no, but that may change once more details come out. On the basis of available info, what makes you vote NO ? What additional detail would change your vote to YES?
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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #1190 - Mar 18^th, 2023 at 12:31pm

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Mar 17^th, 2023 at 7:28pm:

Aborigines etc already have all the voice they need same as everyone else.

They already have a higher percentage of representation in Parliament than their percentage representation in the community.

They are already enshrined in the constitution as Australians - same as everyone else.

They also have lobby groups, special representative groups with access to government, and over-representation in the press.

They have the support of Labor, the Greens, the majority of Independents, as well as a number of those on the 'right' side of Parliament.

What the actual powers and functions of any Special Voice are intended to be has not begun to be addressed. The wording is vague, perhaps deliberately so.

Such a voice is racist, discriminatory and exclusionist.

It is not clear if any 'voice' has political voting power in Parliament.

Such a voice body would be an ATSIC or similar that could never be abolished or stood down for corruption etc.

It will achieve nothing that cannot be achieved without it, and at huge and unnecessary cost in money and disturbance of the democratic process

The intent of 'Aboriginal activists' is not to view this as the end result, but as the stepping stone towards the creation of mini-states throughout Australia, all bound by treaty to the Australian Government and funded by the taxpayer and any relevant business wishing to operate there.

It is not simply about 'Aboriginal issues'. Any claim or demand by one group has direct effects on every member of Australia. Similar to 'women's issues' and such these do not exist in a vacuum.

Depending on the model, it could mean permanent seats in Parliament for people who are only voted on by that one group (or groups) – those claiming Aboriginal descent.

To have a separate voice elected only by Aboriginals would mean that the current Aboriginal elected representatives are superfluous and should be stood down.

The claim to have 'never ceded sovereignty', means that elected Aborigines are ineligible to be chosen or to sit in Parliament.

44. Any person who –
(i.) Is under any acknowledgement of allegiance, obedience, or adherence to a foreign power, or is a subject or a citizen or entitled to the rights or privileges of a subject or citizen of a foreign power:

shall be incapable of being chosen or of sitting as a senator or a member of the House of Representatives.

It's a sad kangaroo who can't even REFUTE one thing here.... but prefers crying 'racism' and hurling ad homs like a stroking bonobo...

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #1191 - Mar 18^th, 2023 at 12:34pm

Clearly the intention here is not to discuss the silly voice idea, but to slag off at one another....

One good reason to vote NO to every idiotic idea is that there are way too many f

u

ckwits out there who might wander into voting YES without a single thought in their heads as to why.

Sane people need to vote NO just to be safe....

Now then - about setting right this native title crap - that stretch of land leading to a beach has been used by countless people of all kinds for long time now.... how is it that ONLY 'natives' cop a chance to claim 'title'?

Stop your governments giving away your national parks NOW - or one day your children etc will have to fight to take them back.

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Karnal

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #1192 - Mar 18^th, 2023 at 4:25pm

Gnads wrote on Mar 18^th, 2023 at 7:39am:

Karnal wrote on Mar 17^th, 2023 at 6:45pm:

Gnads wrote on Mar 17^th, 2023 at 6:41pm:

SadKangaroo wrote on Mar 17^th, 2023 at 2:09pm:

I've been away from this poo hole for another few weeks or months, I wasn't counting, can anyone fill me in to save 78 pages of bullshit, what are the current lies being used to justify the No vote?

Is the voice still going to hand Indigenous Australians power over everyone else?

Is it still racism to recognise them and the atrocities done to them in the constitution?

Should we still be sending the army into the Alice to commit genocide against them?

Have y'all moved on from the crap you were spouting back then?

Pack your bags &

f

uc

k

back off.

There is no logical & sane reason to vote for a constitutional amendment based on race.... period!

You are just another lead by the nose softcock without a real clue.

And we'll ask you. Are you, Gonads, a naughty old wacist?

It sounded like you were wavering last time we discussed this.

And what are you?

I wasn't wavering hello or goodbye to you

Take a pill ... yes?

I see. You don't want to say.

And that's okay. It's personal, yes? You'd like to keep it secret.

So why don't you just say that?

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Frank

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #1193 - Mar 19^th, 2023 at 8:40am

" I am very concerned a voice to executive government is unworkable in practice. While Justice French dismisses concerns regarding the voice to executive government, he does acknowledge there is a risk. The problem is the capacity of the executive – that is, cabinet, minsters, departments, public servants – to make decisions without the risk of a challenge that a decision-maker has not properly considered or provided reasonable opportunity for consideration of a matter by voice representatives. Or indeed that voice representatives were not made aware that a decision was being made and, if it had been known that the decision was being made, they would have sought to make representations.”

Conran has suggested a series of scenarios where commonwealth public servants could face demands for advance consultation on decisions and even face challenges if they failed to advise the voice of a relevant decision being considered.

Voice representatives could write to the Treasury secretary seeking the following:

• Input to the preparation of the 2024-25 budget to allow it to make broad and/or specific representations on the budget, given known and unknown impacts on First Nations people and communities.

• Set out a timeline for proposed representations and note that this would involve consultations by the voice representatives with indigenous communities and might require meetings between Treasury officials and different Indigenous community and voice representatives.

Conran flags that issues to be discussed could include, but not be limited to, superannuation (for example, the lack of superannuation benefits available to many First Nations people); welfare support services and payments, including health; environmental planning, heritage protection and climate change; corporate and small business support services and subsidies; and taxation relative to the impact on Indigenous businesses and individuals and in the context of future tax reforms
https://www.theaustralian.com.au/inquirer/quietly-and-behind-closed-doors-labor-alters-its-voice-draft/news-story/8a6f7abb44eae27d1435a04aa6e2cbf6

A Voice:

What a useless, boring mess this whole Voice has become. It’s not needed. There are already 11 indigenous MP’s and Senators, hundreds of Aboriginal councils and organisations, all with a voice, and all more interested in funding and power than helping Jack and Mary sitting in a remote indigenous community.

If this Voice gets up, it’ll just be a bottomless bucket for money, a back door into legislative control by activists, a hotbed of nepotism, full of infighting, a house of lawfare in the Canberra Bubble, and Jack and Mary will be no better off.

NO is the only sane vote.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #1194 - Mar 19^th, 2023 at 8:54am

Frank wrote on Mar 19^th, 2023 at 8:40am:

" I am very concerned a voice to executive government is unworkable in practice. While Justice French dismisses concerns regarding the voice to executive government, he does acknowledge there is a risk. The problem is the capacity of the executive – that is, cabinet, minsters, departments, public servants – to make decisions without the risk of a challenge that a decision-maker has not properly considered or provided reasonable opportunity for consideration of a matter by voice representatives. Or indeed that voice representatives were not made aware that a decision was being made and, if it had been known that the decision was being made, they would have sought to make representations.”

Conran has suggested a series of scenarios where commonwealth public servants could face demands for advance consultation on decisions and even face challenges if they failed to advise the voice of a relevant decision being considered.

Voice representatives could write to the Treasury secretary seeking the following:

• Input to the preparation of the 2024-25 budget to allow it to make broad and/or specific representations on the budget, given known and unknown impacts on First Nations people and communities.

• Set out a timeline for proposed representations and note that this would involve consultations by the voice representatives with indigenous communities and might require meetings between Treasury officials and different Indigenous community and voice representatives.

Conran flags that issues to be discussed could include, but not be limited to, superannuation (for example, the lack of superannuation benefits available to many First Nations people); welfare support services and payments, including health; environmental planning, heritage protection and climate change; corporate and small business support services and subsidies; and taxation relative to the impact on Indigenous businesses and individuals and in the context of future tax reforms
https://www.theaustralian.com.au/inquirer/quietly-and-behind-closed-doors-labor-alters-its-voice-draft/news-story/8a6f7abb44eae27d1435a04aa6e2cbf6

A Voice:

What a useless, boring mess this whole Voice has become. It’s not needed. There are already 11 indigenous MP’s and Senators, hundreds of Aboriginal councils and organisations, all with a voice, and all more interested in funding and power than helping Jack and Mary sitting in a remote indigenous community.

If this Voice gets up, it’ll just be a bottomless bucket for money, a back door into legislative control by activists, a hotbed of nepotism, full of infighting, a house of lawfare in the Canberra Bubble, and Jack and Mary will be no better off.

NO is the only sane vote.

I will agree with all this, but I am still thinking I will vote yes, for this reason:

The author writes: "Conran flags that issues to be discussed could include, but not be limited to, superannuation (for example, the lack of superannuation benefits available to many First Nations people); welfare support services and payments....".

Indeed, lack of super due to relatively higher unemployment compared with non-blacks; and in the very next sentence Conran refers to the poverty ('welfare') industry in relation to blacks.

Talk about the 'blind leading the blind': we need a JG, not a poverty industry.

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Gnads

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #1195 - Mar 19^th, 2023 at 8:57am

Karnal wrote on Mar 18^th, 2023 at 4:25pm:

Gnads wrote on Mar 18^th, 2023 at 7:39am:

Karnal wrote on Mar 17^th, 2023 at 6:45pm:

Gnads wrote on Mar 17^th, 2023 at 6:41pm:

SadKangaroo wrote on Mar 17^th, 2023 at 2:09pm:

I've been away from this poo hole for another few weeks or months, I wasn't counting, can anyone fill me in to save 78 pages of bullshit, what are the current lies being used to justify the No vote?

Is the voice still going to hand Indigenous Australians power over everyone else?

Is it still racism to recognise them and the atrocities done to them in the constitution?

Should we still be sending the army into the Alice to commit genocide against them?

Have y'all moved on from the crap you were spouting back then?

Pack your bags &

f

uc

k

back off.

There is no logical & sane reason to vote for a constitutional amendment based on race.... period!

You are just another lead by the nose softcock without a real clue.

And we'll ask you. Are you, Gonads, a naughty old wacist?

It sounded like you were wavering last time we discussed this.

And what are you?

I wasn't wavering hello or goodbye to you

Take a pill ... yes?

I see. You don't want to say.

And that's okay. It's personal, yes? You'd like to keep it secret.

So why don't you just say that?

THAT ....... happy now? Grin

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #1196 - Mar 19^th, 2023 at 9:04am

Superannuation - you get what you get - it needs repair along the Grappler lines, but still... if you don't earn, you don't get.

Social Security - same-same... no need to even discuss.

You want job and no live on Social Security - you might have to move to a town and work.... actually work, you know.... have you noticed the variety of people working in Alice springs? That American security guard.... Indians etc working at Woolies....

Why are the locals not doing those jobs, eh? That's the question.... other people can travel thousands of miles and change countries to do those jobs, but the locals won't get off their arse.... well - no gettee offee arsee - no wages.... no wages... no super.... sit at home all day, get stoned, let the kids run riot all night ... your life choices...NOBODY ELSE'S!

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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thegreatdivide

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #1197 - Mar 19^th, 2023 at 9:46am

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Mar 19^th, 2023 at 9:04am:

Superannuation - you get what you get - it needs repair along the Grappler lines, but still... if you don't earn, you don't get.

Actually super is a silly system for avoiding poverty in retirement (sorry Paul), but the fact is you have to work to get it. See your error: your can't "earn" super if you don't work.....

Quote:

Social Security - same-same... no need to even discuss.

You mean... you agree with me - the 'poverty industry' (caused by lack of a job) should not exist?

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Frank

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #1198 - Mar 19^th, 2023 at 10:10am

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 19^th, 2023 at 9:46am:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Mar 19^th, 2023 at 9:04am:

Superannuation - you get what you get - it needs repair along the Grappler lines, but still... if you don't earn, you don't get.

Actually super is a silly system for avoiding poverty in retirement (sorry Paul), but the fact is you have to work to get it. See your error: your can't "earn" super if you don't work.....

Quote:

Social Security - same-same... no need to even discuss.

You mean... you agree with me - the 'poverty industry' (caused by lack of a job) should not exist?

You lament that only work can earn super - but then agitate for a job guarantee, ie guaranteed (forced) work for all.

Polly wants to have his cracker and eat it, too.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #1199 - Mar 19^th, 2023 at 11:21am

Frank wrote on Mar 19^th, 2023 at 10:10am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 19^th, 2023 at 9:46am:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Mar 19^th, 2023 at 9:04am:

Superannuation - you get what you get - it needs repair along the Grappler lines, but still... if you don't earn, you don't get.

Actually super is a silly system for avoiding poverty in retirement (sorry Paul), but the fact is you have to work to get it. See your error: your can't "earn" super if you don't work.....

Quote:

Social Security - same-same... no need to even discuss.

You mean... you agree with me - the 'poverty industry' (caused by lack of a job) should not exist?

You lament that only work can earn super - but then agitate for a job guarantee, ie guaranteed (forced) work for all.

Polly wants to have his cracker and eat it, too.

Notice how you added "forced" into the concept of a JG.

You deplorable RW individual sovereignty ideologue.

We all have to work, for our own sanity, as well for the nation's development.

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Poll
Question: Will the referendum be voted in?
* This poll has now closed *
No 42 (75.0%) Yes 14 (25.0%) Total votes: 56 « Last Modified by: Redmond Neck on: Feb 25^th, 2023 at 11:17am »