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Poll closed Poll
Question: Will the referendum be voted in?
*** This poll has now closed ***


No    
  42 (75.0%)
Yes    
  14 (25.0%)




Total votes: 56
« Last Modified by: Redmond Neck on: Feb 25th, 2023 at 11:17am »

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The Aboriginal Voice referendum (Read 90761 times)
thegreatdivide
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #1800 - May 30th, 2023 at 4:49pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on May 30th, 2023 at 3:56pm:
Boris wrote on May 30th, 2023 at 3:21pm:
History has taught us - Never trust Communists


Communists don't, despite your fantasies, rule us, Matty.  Tsk, tsk, tsk...   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes


True ...but time will tell if (self-interested) liberal democracy can survive, and create prosperity for all. Imagine if "America First" Trumpy gets hold of the reins again..

Boris of course is only capable of looking backwards, not forwards; history contains some lessons, but is not the repository of current solutions to current problems. 
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UnSubRocky
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #1801 - May 30th, 2023 at 6:17pm
 
thegreatdivide,

Quote:
No, my response indicates you are blinded by your own conservarive ideology which is the reason why you don't understand macro-economics. Pity.


Phukkstick, I told you that you responded to a point I was making to John Smith about not calling a 17-year-old indigenous girl a "jackass", simply because she was the one that told me about how indigenous people get special benefits not available to non-indigenous people. That was confirmed by a woman who said that her family was entitled to get special benefits exclusive to her racial background.

If you want to talk macroeconomics, you might want to discuss how a racial group of people who have a high unemployment rate can afford things that people of a similar socioeconomic background cannot. Until then, you can continue looking stupid with that condescending attitude of yours.

Quote:
Indeed, but they only "receive  exclusive benefits" because they are the most unemployed people in Oz, a point you refuse to acknowledge, or simply blame the blacks themselves for what is a macroeconomic problem.


Oh great! At least you admit indigenous people have exclusive benefits. My town has an indigenous population percentage of between 5% to 7%. I bet if all the indigenous benefits were relegated to be available and on par with that of non-indigenous people, the percentage of Rockhamptonites claiming to be indigenous would drop to about 3%.

Indigenous people have been counted among the Australian population for the last 56 years. Even if I say that 1992 was the time when all discriminatory practices ended against indigenous people, that is still over 30 years to get your act together and become productive members of society. And given the fact that you admit that indigenous people receive special privileges, the time to feel sorry for them about colonial era issues is LONG ended.

Quote:
we are still killing children in wars, because the UN was neutered by blind men demanding individual sovereignty (and absolute national sovereignty), hence the incapacitating veto in the so-called "Security" Council.


The Australian military is so hypersensitive to the 'feelings' of foreigners, that they will make sure that footage of a soldier shooting dead a surrendered enemy combatant gets played in the media for public scrutiny before the soldier gets his day in court. Think "Breaker Morant" when the officers wanted to make a sacrifice of some Australian soldiers so that the Boers could see that the British were unbias in military justice.

Your talk about killing children in wars is so antiquated, that the softly-softly military will see it as laughable. Then they will frown and wonder what other type of "walking on eggshells" refining of the military do you want to see.

Quote:
The social and economic problems of half casts were tricky in those days; and indeed we are still faced with finding better solutions re family dysfunction (and child removals) related to incompatible cultures, to close the gap.


One solution is to drop the act of being an indigenous barbarian, where the rules of violent patriarchy don't apply, and adopt and abide by the laws of Australia. When you live by the laws of Australia, you tend to have a good life.

Quote:
We will all deserve the civil war if it happens, for failing to solve the problem of black poverty in particular (though all poverty should be condemned by the entire population, in this 'rich' country).


Yeah, well, how are you going to solve my poverty problems, whilst you are at it? Oh, right.... you don't entertain things that involve me.

To solve black poverty, the general template to do this is to keep hygienic about yourself and your surroundings; eat nutritious meals; dress appropriately when in public; get educated (either in school, training, or self-taught); keep your health ideal; abide by the law of the land; hold respect for other people that respect you.

You will see poverty levels fall, if these principle guidelines are followed.

Quote:
Australians are committed to US global hegemony, not peace under international law.


Wars cost money. It is better to make friends and not enemies. Thwarting hostile enemies is preferable instead of letting them grow in number. But, there is a need to be strategic about who is the enemy. Time spent fighting the Afghans was a waste of resources and manpower. But, it is probably better to ally with the Americans than to be neutral. Things might be different if China and the United States escalate tensions with each other.

Quote:
That paragraph is correct if you replace 'self-inflicted' with 'systemic', ie caused by the current neoliberal/ 'small government' economic orthodoxy. I expect you, being ideologically blind, won't see it.


If I was ideologically blind, I would not be here kicking your whingeing ultra-left-wing arse so much that you cry yourself asleep thinking about the "tough love" principles I endorse. I am quite happy with the way our economy is run. It would be better if the Liberal party was in charge again. But, for now, the economy is running well. And indigenous people are so spoiled in the last few decades that they have no reason to complain.
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UnSubRocky
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #1802 - May 30th, 2023 at 6:31pm
 
Quote:
Indeed the voice debate is a diversion resulting from the nation failing to face the real problem of entrenched poverty, in a rich  country.


Roll Eyes

The voice debate is about whether we should acknowledge indigenous Australians in the constitution to being part of the advisory body that determines "on matters that affect the lives of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples". It is going to be another one of those "special privileges" organisations that really promotes Australian apartheid. I have no considerable knowledge of how the "Voice to Parliament" advisory body will function, other than what I have stated.

Obviously, we Australians have a system of economics that allows people to succeed or fail as a result of their own determination. You cannot actually fail as a person in Australia, unless you do not try.

Quote:
Note: there are sufficient resources in Oz to ensure the training and employment of ALL Australians.


Boing! Are you conceding that the high unemployment rate of indigenous Australians is the result of indigenous Australians not trying to gain employment?

I knew a guy -- and, yes, here is one of my personal anecdotes -- that has a similar job success rate as I. He has the training and the education to get a job in some blue-collar employment. But, he just does not seem to be able to keep the job. The reason? His own attitude problem. Maybe he figures he is better off being an indigenous job seeker, given that I find it difficult to believe that he can maintain the ute that he drives around, if he was receiving the same kind of Jobseeker payment I get.
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Grappler Truth Teller Feller
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #1803 - May 30th, 2023 at 6:48pm
 
thegreatdivide wrote on May 30th, 2023 at 4:41pm:
Conservatives, in the current parliamentary debate:

"We want equality before the law". ...which they define as "fairness for everyone".

Apparently poverty is not related to "fairness", or closing the gap.



Silly argument - everyone has the same opportunity - nobody can guarantee the results.  There are countless reasons why people fall through the cracks and NONE of them has to do with race apart from the attitudes of some in certain racial groups.

Would you employ someone at the front desk who was openly hostile about his religion and behaved in a threatening manner to any he considered not of this faith?  Just one example..

You cannot enforce lack of poverty..... closing the gaps has nothing to do with legal equality.  they've been closing the gaps for years now costing countless billions - without a single step forward.  Time to cut the waste boat adrift and let it sink or swim on its own merits.

I await with bated breath the outcome of that handover of native title (camping out rights only) covering 44k sq km around Geraldton and the handover of $450m in assets, businesses and cash....  half a million per Aborigine there...... bet you within two years the hands are out for aid to help the failing businesses, and the dole will never stop either along with the 'need' for special cash flooded 'assistance' to cure the problems.  Chances are more that they will burn the place to the ground and fight over parts of it..
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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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UnSubRocky
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #1804 - May 30th, 2023 at 9:45pm
 
https://iview.abc.net.au/video/NN2205H121S00

Just in case this has not been posted, yet.
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thegreatdivide
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #1805 - May 31st, 2023 at 12:01pm
 
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on May 30th, 2023 at 6:48pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on May 30th, 2023 at 4:41pm:
Conservatives, in the current parliamentary debate:

"We want equality before the law". ...which they define as "fairness for everyone".

Apparently poverty is not related to "fairness", or closing the gap.



Silly argument - everyone has the same opportunity - nobody can guarantee the results. 


For the sake of the argument, let's agree "everyone has the same opportunity" (though the differences in opportunities between someone born into a prosperous family cf. one living in poverty is huge); your error is to assert "nobody can guarantee the result".

You make this error because you reject, inter alia, government having a role as employer of last resort, indeed you reject government because you see it as a restriction on your freedom to pursue your own happiness.

At heart, conservatives fear government-ordained   eradication of systemic poverty will result in reduction of their own wealth.

Quote:
There are countless reasons why people fall through the cracks and NONE of them has to do with race apart from the attitudes of some in certain racial groups.


The first 10 words are correct, and these reasons can be divided into personal (local, 'micro') and systemic (external, 'macro').

Whereas the egregious black gap stats disprove the remainder of your statement; the attitudes of "some" - regardless of ethnicity - cannot change the effects of current macro economic realities responsible for maintaining entrenched poverty.

Quote:
Would you employ someone at the front desk who was openly hostile about his religion and behaved in a threatening manner to any he considered not of this faith?  Just one example.


No.

Quote:
You cannot enforce lack of poverty..... closing the gaps has nothing to do with legal equality. 


The government can eradicate poverty via training for jobs, and provision of jobs for all. 


Quote:
they've been closing the gaps for years now costing countless billions - without a single step forward


Indeed in some cases the gap stats are going backwards, proving the current efforts are misguided and misplaced.

Quote:
. .  Time to cut the waste boat adrift and let it sink or swim on its own merits.


The lazy, wrong and defeatist position, impelled by conservative concerns noted at the top. 

Quote:
I await with bated breath the outcome of that handover of native title (camping out rights only) covering 44k sq km around Geraldton and the handover of $450m in assets, businesses and cash....  half a million per Aborigine there...... bet you within two years the hands are out for aid to help the failing businesses, and the dole will never stop either along with the 'need' for special cash flooded 'assistance' to cure the problems.  Chances are more that they will burn the place to the ground and fight over parts of it..


Yes, it's likely native title is not the solution to closing the gap, unless blacks everywhere can partake in such native title-based schemes, which is not realistic, given the rate of failure of ALL businesses in the private sector.
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thegreatdivide
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #1806 - May 31st, 2023 at 12:18pm
 
UnSubRocky wrote on May 30th, 2023 at 6:31pm:
Quote:
Indeed the voice debate is a diversion resulting from the nation failing to face the real problem of entrenched poverty, in a rich  country.


Roll Eyes

The voice debate is about whether we should acknowledge indigenous Australians in the constitution to being part of the advisory body that determines "on matters that affect the lives of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples". It is going to be another one of those "special privileges" organisations that really promotes Australian apartheid. I have no considerable knowledge of how the "Voice to Parliament" advisory body will function, other than what I have stated.


Like I said, the voice  is a diversion from facing the causes of the egregious gap stats.
The Yes case is hoping the voice will close the gap, the No case wants to know how the voice will close the gap first, before changing the Constitution. . 

Quote:
Obviously, we Australians have a system of economics that allows people to succeed or fail as a result of their own determination. You cannot actually fail as a person in Australia, unless you do not try.


See my latest reply to graps; your conservative  narratives re "trying' are nonsense, in a dysfunctonal NAIRU economic system 


Quote:
Are you conceding that the high unemployment rate of indigenous Australians is the result of indigenous Australians not trying to gain employment?
  No.

Quote:
I knew a guy --
  irelevant...pass.

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Gnads
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #1807 - May 31st, 2023 at 1:00pm
 
thegreatdivide wrote on May 30th, 2023 at 4:41pm:
Conservatives, in the current parliamentary debate:

"We want equality before the law". ...which they define as "fairness for everyone".

Apparently poverty is not related to "fairness", or closing the gap.



I've heard a cockatoo with a less repetitive & greater range of vocabulary than you.
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"When you are dead, you do not know you are dead. It's only painful and difficult for others. The same applies when you are stupid." ~ Ricky Gervais
 
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thegreatdivide
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #1808 - May 31st, 2023 at 1:40pm
 
Gnads wrote on May 31st, 2023 at 1:00pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on May 30th, 2023 at 4:41pm:
Conservatives, in the current parliamentary debate:

"We want equality before the law". ...which they define as "fairness for everyone".

Apparently poverty is not related to "fairness", or closing the gap.


I've heard a cockatoo with a less repetitive & greater range of vocabulary than you.


And that same cockatoo is probably more intelligent than you, since you are driven by anachronistic, blind, self-serving  survival instincts which - as the mastery of technology by humans increases -  are likely to result in the desruction of life in the age of MAD, rather than preservation of life (ie, individual organisms, you and me) on the planet as originally intended in the tooth and claw natural world.


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Brian Ross
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #1809 - May 31st, 2023 at 1:58pm
 
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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour.  Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe?  Tsk, tsk, tsk...   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #1810 - May 31st, 2023 at 6:38pm
 
It's just a giant Media 'scam' on Politics itself.
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AIMLESS EXTENTION OF KNOWLEDGE HOWEVER, WHICH IS WHAT I THINK YOU REALLY MEAN BY THE TERM 'CURIOSITY', IS MERELY INEFFICIENCY. I AM DESIGNED TO AVOID INEFFICIENCY.
 
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Gnads
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #1811 - May 31st, 2023 at 6:50pm
 
thegreatdivide wrote on May 31st, 2023 at 1:40pm:
Gnads wrote on May 31st, 2023 at 1:00pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on May 30th, 2023 at 4:41pm:
Conservatives, in the current parliamentary debate:

"We want equality before the law". ...which they define as "fairness for everyone".

Apparently poverty is not related to "fairness", or closing the gap.


I've heard a cockatoo with a less repetitive & greater range of vocabulary than you.


And that same cockatoo is probably more intelligent than you, since you are driven by anachronistic, blind, self-serving  survival instincts which - as the mastery of technology by humans increases -  are likely to result in the desruction of life in the age of MAD, rather than preservation of life (ie, individual organisms, you and me) on the planet as originally intended in the tooth and claw natural world.




Put a sock in it you driveling twerp.
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Gnads
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #1812 - May 31st, 2023 at 6:51pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on May 31st, 2023 at 1:58pm:



Yes Politics is riddled with woke guilt ridden examples on both sides.
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #1813 - May 31st, 2023 at 6:55pm
 
Gnads wrote on May 31st, 2023 at 6:51pm:
Brian Ross wrote on May 31st, 2023 at 1:58pm:



Yes Politics is riddled with woke guilt ridden examples on both sides.


Now for the upper house... it's only a bill to allow the referendum ... not a vote in it, though some will be confused....

Probably 90% of current voters have never met an Aborigine... wouldn't have idea one of what this is all about.  How many people currently living in Sydney or Melbadishu have any idea what this is about?

Did someone mention a cockatoo?  Like saying down Cambra:- "Pollie wanna crack 'er?"

In most cases he sure does... away from home and flooded with pussy on all sides and looking for the easy run in life ... they all want to crack as many as they can and not get caught.... I'll bet the payouts and quiet abortions on the side leave the Beatles in the shade...
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UnSubRocky
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #1814 - May 31st, 2023 at 11:19pm
 
thegreatdivide wrote on May 31st, 2023 at 12:18pm:
Like I said, the voice  is a diversion from facing the causes of the egregious gap stats.
The Yes case is hoping the voice will close the gap, the No case wants to know how the voice will close the gap first, before changing the Constitution. .
...your conservative  narratives re "trying' are nonsense, in a dysfunctonal NAIRU economic system


The causes of the egregious gap statistics of indigenous to non-indigenous:

*Not trying to secure work
*Not studying at school well enough to develop a good work ethic.
*Trying to show indigenous friends and families that you are not a sell-out to the Western way of life and still hold onto ancient beliefs and customs.
*Using your ancient beliefs and customs as a way to excuse yourself for why you have committed a crime. And then being allowed cultural sensitivity by the magistrate to get out of a conviction. In this case, you lack the initiative to change any antisocial behaviour.
*Getting paid more for doing less because you are an indigenous person. But continuing the cycle of impoverishment because there is no incentive to be upwardly socially and economically mobile.
*Being the child of a person with a poor work ethic. Learning that other people will pay your way through life.

And in an economic system where we may well need unemployed people to exist to prevent overinflation, there is still the issue of living above the poverty level that ALL Australians can achieve, even if they are not full-time employees.
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