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Poll closed Poll
Question: Will the referendum be voted in?
*** This poll has now closed ***


No    
  42 (75.0%)
Yes    
  14 (25.0%)




Total votes: 56
« Last Modified by: Redmond Neck on: Feb 25th, 2023 at 11:17am »

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The Aboriginal Voice referendum (Read 100105 times)
Frank
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #180 - Nov 21st, 2022 at 8:15am
 
Australians are no longer permitted access to Ayers Rock/Uluru and a host of other ‘sacred sites’ for ‘cultural reasons’. And of course it’s not just in national parks that Aboriginal groups are wielding power in the sacred sites fandango. While we are being asked to walk together to a better future, at the same time, billions of dollars of mining projects which would enrich us all are being stymied because of indigenous intransigence. Australian operator Santos has had to suspend drilling activities at its $3.6-billion Barossa offshore gas project following a legal challenge brought by indigenous groups. Santos has similar setbacks at its Narrabri gas project. At a recent public meeting, hosted by Santos, Ms Dorothy Tighe, a representative of the traditional owners of the land on which the mine will be based said, ‘We’re here to tell you you’re not welcome on Gomeroi and Githabul and Ngarabal country because there’s not any proper consent done for our people. You never consulted with us as traditional owners…. We don’t want you on country. Gamil means no’. In response to Ms. Tigh, the chair of the meeting said, ‘We have been working with the authorised applicants of the Gomeroi people, and we’ve been working with them in informal negotiations since 2012 and formal negotiations since 2015. We have undertaken extensive engagements to ensure the Gomeroi are fully informed on the aspects of the project.’

So, at a time when the Australian east coast is facing a critical shortage of natural gas supply a major project which has been under development for over a decade cannot progress without court action. The Gomeroi people are the traditional owners of the land in the Pilliga state forest on which Santos wish to mine the gas which will be solely for the Australian market. Santos will need access to 1,000 hectares for the life of the project. This is one fifth of 1 per cent of the land controlled by the Gomeroi people but they will not relinquish even that tiny fraction of the land they control. Not much of the ‘walk with us’ spirit there.

Of course every major mining group in Australia has similar problems. Projects which would benefit us all are inevitably resisted by people claiming a deep spiritual commitment to the land on which the projects are to be based.  The raising of the Warragamba dam wall is also being resisted by traditional owners because it will flood sacred sites but there is almost no photographic evidence of the alleged sacred sites. The proposed widening of the Great Western Highway connecting Sydney to Western NSW is said to be of national significance but that doesn’t concern Wiradjuri man Adrian Williams who is deeply worried about 20 sacred sites that may be affected by the widening of the highway.

And on it goes. Almost every road project in rural Australia encounters problems with people claiming that a tree or rock is sacred.  Rarely is any evidence produced in support of such claims. Instead journalists are content to merely repeat whatever a self-appointed spokesperson chooses to say. Just as uttering the word ‘Shazam’ turned mild-mannered Billy Batson into the 1950s superhero Captain Marvel, so anyone who utters the magic phrase ‘sacred sites’, turns into an indigenous expert who will mysteriously appear on ABC news programs.

Whenever an Aboriginal group gets control of land then, almost invariably what follows will be a struggle by various members within that group for supremacy and access will usually be restricted or denied for non Aboriginal Australians. Economic development will invariably be impeded or delayed.

It is time we recognised that places that were once undoubtedly sacred to people can no longer claim that status. Stonehenge which must once have had a sacred purpose is now a tourist attraction. The same status now applies to almost every pre-industrial animist religious site in the modern world and although many Aboriginal Australians, especially those from the Canberra tribe, would argue otherwise, Australia is part of the modern world.

Giving greater power to Aboriginal groups will not reduce their resistance to economic development and the Voice treaty truth campaign is not a way forward. It is an unashamed grab for even more power and will inevitably result in greater difficulty developing the resources which have made Australia one the most successful and wealthy nations the world has ever seen.

It would be helpful if credulous journalists could start asking Aboriginal spokespersons some direct questions about this mysterious voice to parliament. They might ask why we are all to walk together for a better future when Aboriginal groups invariably resist economic development. Perhaps they could ask for a deeper explanation of how discontinued religious and ceremonial practices are still regarded as essential to their self identity.
https://www.spectator.com.au/2022/11/aussie-life-95/
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #181 - Nov 21st, 2022 at 12:50pm
 
I see an extreme government of one sort or another just over the horizon (Grappler's Over The Horizon Social Radar) as a direct result of all this shilly-shallying and weak-kneed supplication to all these ridiculous groups.

Out of all this will arise a government that will be the same as - say - The Perrottet  Fantasy - but in reverse, since it will demand not closure and handover of OUR national parks - but will demand they be re-opened to all as required as national parks and will enforce that.  Just an example......

Consider all the other major things that such a government would do..... some for overall good ... but the moment you permit any government - as now holds sway with State and Federal governments - to make its own rules every time you run the same dangers...

The Perrottet Fantasy and the same at Federal level are No Different from such a despotic government in that they dictate what we, the people, will accept and take.....

Take Back the Asylum!!


...
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #182 - Nov 22nd, 2022 at 2:06pm
 
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Nov 20th, 2022 at 5:20pm:
We're still waiting on your ideas for practical action instead of nice little down home homilies and fine sounding phrases of intention but not of action.


Uneducable Thatcherite TINA/NAIRU ideologues are incapable of seeing the solutions even when they are  placed in front of their eyes.

Study Bill Mitchell's blog to learn about the neoliberal NAIRU fantasy, and then you will know why Thatcher's "other people's money" nonsense, and TINA: "there is no alternative" are lies.   

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Frank
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #183 - Nov 22nd, 2022 at 2:52pm
 
03 | The First Game Changer: A Job Guarantee For The Bottom Million

In his third lecture, Noel Pearson argues that Indigenous Australians have become trapped in the 'bottom million' of the nation when it comes to economic development.

He describes the ongoing effect of welfare dependency, or 'passive welfare', which he says is not just a problem afflicting Indigenous communities, it's a human problem.

https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/boyerlectures/the-first-game-chang...

As usual with Noel Pearson, his Boyer Lectures are very much worth listening to.
He advocates for both the Voice and job guarantee and I disagree with him on both points. Still, he makes a lot of sense as a diagnostician even if his solutions are wrong.

On the voice - it would be better called the Cacophony. It is not just different tribes have different interests but different clans within tribes do. See the latest yeah-but-no-but around the proposed Alice Springs Aboriginal Art Centre on sacred women's business site in the very centre of townUndecided Undecided


Job guarantee: what do you do with people who do not want to work? The lumpen, the lazy, drunk, dishonest, work shy? Keep them in the 'job'even if they do not turn up or do more damage than good when they do turn up?  There are about 490 thousand job vacancies and 550 thousand unemployed people. That looks to me as close to a job for anyone who wants one as you can get.




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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #184 - Nov 22nd, 2022 at 7:16pm
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 22nd, 2022 at 2:06pm:
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Nov 20th, 2022 at 5:20pm:
We're still waiting on your ideas for practical action instead of nice little down home homilies and fine sounding phrases of intention but not of action.


Uneducable Thatcherite TINA/NAIRU ideologues are incapable of seeing the solutions even when they are  placed in front of their eyes.

Study Bill Mitchell's blog to learn about the neoliberal NAIRU fantasy, and then you will know why Thatcher's "other people's money" nonsense, and TINA: "there is no alternative" are lies.   



Totally irrelevant.  What are your ACTIONS to Alter these things?
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thegreatdivide
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #185 - Nov 23rd, 2022 at 12:14pm
 
Frank wrote on Nov 21st, 2022 at 8:15am:
Australians are no longer permitted access to Ayers Rock/Uluru and a host of other ‘sacred sites’ for ‘cultural reasons’. And of course it’s not just in national parks that Aboriginal groups are wielding power in the sacred sites fandango. While we are being asked to walk together to a better future, at the same time, billions of dollars of mining projects which would enrich us all are being stymied because of indigenous intransigence. Australian operator Santos has had to suspend drilling activities at its $3.6-billion Barossa offshore gas project following a legal challenge brought by indigenous groups. Santos has similar setbacks at its Narrabri gas project. At a recent public meeting, hosted by Santos, Ms Dorothy Tighe, a representative of the traditional owners of the land on which the mine will be based said, ‘We’re here to tell you you’re not welcome on Gomeroi and Githabul and Ngarabal country because there’s not any proper consent done for our people. You never consulted with us as traditional owners…. We don’t want you on country. Gamil means no’. In response to Ms. Tigh, the chair of the meeting said, ‘We have been working with the authorised applicants of the Gomeroi people, and we’ve been working with them in informal negotiations since 2012 and formal negotiations since 2015. We have undertaken extensive engagements to ensure the Gomeroi are fully informed on the aspects of the project.’

So, at a time when the Australian east coast is facing a critical shortage of natural gas supply a major project which has been under development for over a decade cannot progress without court action. The Gomeroi people are the traditional owners of the land in the Pilliga state forest on which Santos wish to mine the gas which will be solely for the Australian market. Santos will need access to 1,000 hectares for the life of the project. This is one fifth of 1 per cent of the land controlled by the Gomeroi people but they will not relinquish even that tiny fraction of the land they control. Not much of the ‘walk with us’ spirit there.

Of course every major mining group in Australia has similar problems. Projects which would benefit us all are inevitably resisted by people claiming a deep spiritual commitment to the land on which the projects are to be based.  The raising of the Warragamba dam wall is also being resisted by traditional owners because it will flood sacred sites but there is almost no photographic evidence of the alleged sacred sites. The proposed widening of the Great Western Highway connecting Sydney to Western NSW is said to be of national significance but that doesn’t concern Wiradjuri man Adrian Williams who is deeply worried about 20 sacred sites that may be affected by the widening of the highway.

And on it goes. Almost every road project in rural Australia encounters problems with people claiming that a tree or rock is sacred.  Rarely is any evidence produced in support of such claims. Instead journalists are content to merely repeat whatever a self-appointed spokesperson chooses to say. Just as uttering the word ‘Shazam’ turned mild-mannered Billy Batson into the 1950s superhero Captain Marvel, so anyone who utters the magic phrase ‘sacred sites’, turns into an indigenous expert who will mysteriously appear on ABC news programs.

Whenever an Aboriginal group gets control of land then, almost invariably what follows will be a struggle by various members within that group for supremacy and access will usually be restricted or denied for non Aboriginal Australians. Economic development will invariably be impeded or delayed.

It is time we recognised that places that were once undoubtedly sacred to people can no longer claim that status. Stonehenge which must once have had a sacred purpose is now a tourist attraction. The same status now applies to almost every pre-industrial animist religious site in the modern world and although many Aboriginal Australians, especially those from the Canberra tribe, would argue otherwise, Australia is part of the modern world.

Giving greater power to Aboriginal groups will not reduce their resistance to economic development and the Voice treaty truth campaign is not a way forward. It is an unashamed grab for even more power and will inevitably result in greater difficulty developing the resources which have made Australia one the most successful and wealthy nations the world has ever seen.

It would be helpful if credulous journalists could start asking Aboriginal spokespersons some direct questions about this mysterious voice to parliament. They might ask why we are all to walk together for a better future when Aboriginal groups invariably resist economic development. Perhaps they could ask for a deeper explanation of how discontinued religious and ceremonial practices are still regarded as essential to their self identity.
https://www.spectator.com.au/2022/11/aussie-life-95/


Good post.

But this madness is accepted by mainstream journalists because they think closing the gap requires kowtowing to black "culture".

And they do this because they don't understand the economic basis of the gap, specifically, the systemic dysfunction which entrenches long term unemployment (in white and black communities, but most egregiously in black).   
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #186 - Nov 23rd, 2022 at 6:16pm
 
Here - suck on reality for a change, Smith.

Aborigines etc already have all the voice they need same as everyone else.

They already have a higher percentage of representation in Parliament than their percentage representation in the community.

They are already enshrined in the constitution as Australians - same as everyone else.

They also have lobby groups, special representative groups with access to government, and over-representation in the press.

They have the support of Labor, the Greens, the majority of Independents, as well as a number of those on the 'right' side of Parliament.

What the actual powers and functions of any Special Voice are intended to be has not begun to be addressed.  The wording is vague, perhaps deliberately so.

Such a voice is racist, discriminatory and exclusionist.

It is not clear if any 'voice' has political voting power in Parliament.

Such a voice body would be an ATSIC or similar that could never be abolished or stood down for corruption etc.

It will achieve nothing that cannot be achieved without it, and at huge and unnecessary cost in money and disturbance of the democratic process

The intent of 'Aboriginal activists' is not to view this as the end result, but as the stepping stone towards the creation of mini-states throughout Australia, all bound by treaty to the Australian Government and funded by the taxpayer and any relevant business wishing to operate there.

It is not simply about 'Aboriginal issues'.  Any claim or demand by one group has direct effects on every member of Australia.  Similar to 'women's issues' and such these do not exist in a vacuum.

Depending on the model, it could mean permanent seats in Parliament for people who are only voted on by that one group (or groups) – those claiming Aboriginal descent.

To have a separate voice elected only by Aboriginals would mean that the current Aboriginal elected representatives are superfluous and should be stood down.

The claim to have 'never ceded sovereignty', means that elected Aborigines are ineligible to be chosen or to sit in Parliament.

44. Any person who –

(i.) Is under any acknowledgement of allegiance, obedience, or adherence to a foreign power, or is a subject or a citizen or entitled to the rights or privileges of a subject or citizen of a foreign power:

shall be incapable of being chosen or of sitting as a senator or a member of the House of Representatives.
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« Last Edit: Nov 24th, 2022 at 7:38am by Grappler Truth Teller Feller »  

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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John Smith
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #187 - Nov 24th, 2022 at 6:13am
 
Bad news for racists like crappler . .... saw a poll this morning on tele that showed 80% approval for some form off aboriginal voice in parliament.

Must suck to see all the pent up hatred go to waste
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Frank
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #188 - Nov 24th, 2022 at 6:59am
 
John Smith wrote on Nov 24th, 2022 at 6:13am:
Bad news for racists like crappler . .... saw a poll this morning on tele that showed 80% approval for some form off aboriginal voice in parliament.

Must suck to see all the pent up hatred go to waste



We ALREADY have Aboriginal voice in parliament. They are called Members of Parliament.





Liberal Senator Kerrynne Liddle claims the long-accepted test to establish whether a person is an Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander Australian is being “tinkered with” in favour of self-identification.

Senator Liddle, an Arrernte woman from Alice Springs, told parliament on Wednesday she was concerned that an “astonishing” increase in the number of Australians who consider themselves Indigenous would have consequences for government policies and programs and the people who needed them most.

The South Australian senator made her remarks as a regional NSW land council pushes for Labor’s proposed National Anti-Corruption Commission to investigate what it says is the scandal of non-Indigenous people and organisations claiming contracts, jobs and benefits ­intended for ­Aboriginal Australians.

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« Last Edit: Nov 24th, 2022 at 7:07am by Frank »  

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John Smith
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #189 - Nov 24th, 2022 at 7:18am
 
Frank wrote on Nov 24th, 2022 at 6:59am:
John Smith wrote on Nov 24th, 2022 at 6:13am:
Bad news for racists like crappler . .... saw a poll this morning on tele that showed 80% approval for some form off aboriginal voice in parliament.

Must suck to see all the pent up hatred go to waste



We ALREADY have Aboriginal voice in parliament. They are called Members of Parliament.





Liberal Senator Kerrynne Liddle claims the long-accepted test to establish whether a person is an Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander Australian is being “tinkered with” in favour of self-identification.

Senator Liddle, an Arrernte woman from Alice Springs, told parliament on Wednesday she was concerned that an “astonishing” increase in the number of Australians who consider themselves Indigenous would have consequences for government policies and programs and the people who needed them most.

The South Australian senator made her remarks as a regional NSW land council pushes for Labor’s proposed National Anti-Corruption Commission to investigate what it says is the scandal of non-Indigenous people and organisations claiming contracts, jobs and benefits ­intended for ­Aboriginal Australians.



You should worry more about the parliament in that poo hole you come from and leave Australia's parliament for Aussies.
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Frank
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #190 - Nov 24th, 2022 at 7:24am
 
John Smith wrote on Nov 24th, 2022 at 7:18am:
Frank wrote on Nov 24th, 2022 at 6:59am:
John Smith wrote on Nov 24th, 2022 at 6:13am:
Bad news for racists like crappler . .... saw a poll this morning on tele that showed 80% approval for some form off aboriginal voice in parliament.

Must suck to see all the pent up hatred go to waste



We ALREADY have Aboriginal voice in parliament. They are called Members of Parliament.





Liberal Senator Kerrynne Liddle claims the long-accepted test to establish whether a person is an Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander Australian is being “tinkered with” in favour of self-identification.

Senator Liddle, an Arrernte woman from Alice Springs, told parliament on Wednesday she was concerned that an “astonishing” increase in the number of Australians who consider themselves Indigenous would have consequences for government policies and programs and the people who needed them most.

The South Australian senator made her remarks as a regional NSW land council pushes for Labor’s proposed National Anti-Corruption Commission to investigate what it says is the scandal of non-Indigenous people and organisations claiming contracts, jobs and benefits ­intended for ­Aboriginal Australians.



You should worry more about the parliament in that poo hole you come from and leave Australia's parliament for Aussies.


Senator Mehreen Faruqi

...
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #191 - Nov 24th, 2022 at 7:37am
 
John Smith wrote on Nov 24th, 2022 at 6:13am:
Bad news for racists like crappler . .... saw a poll this morning on tele that showed 80% approval for some form off aboriginal voice in parliament.

Must suck to see all the pent up hatred go to waste


That's not the word on the streets... NOBODY supports it..... there's nothing racist about opposing an utterly stupid idea.

You'll work it out one day, Smith... just remember - I TOLD YOU SO!
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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #192 - Nov 24th, 2022 at 7:39am
 
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Nov 23rd, 2022 at 6:16pm:
Here - suck on reality for a change, Smith.

Aborigines etc already have all the voice they need same as everyone else.

They already have a higher percentage of representation in Parliament than their percentage representation in the community.

They are already enshrined in the constitution as Australians - same as everyone else.

They also have lobby groups, special representative groups with access to government, and over-representation in the press.

They have the support of Labor, the Greens, the majority of Independents, as well as a number of those on the 'right' side of Parliament.

What the actual powers and functions of any Special Voice are intended to be has not begun to be addressed.  The wording is vague, perhaps deliberately so.

Such a voice is racist, discriminatory and exclusionist.

It is not clear if any 'voice' has political voting power in Parliament.

Such a voice body would be an ATSIC or similar that could never be abolished or stood down for corruption etc.

It will achieve nothing that cannot be achieved without it, and at huge and unnecessary cost in money and disturbance of the democratic process

The intent of 'Aboriginal activists' is not to view this as the end result, but as the stepping stone towards the creation of mini-states throughout Australia, all bound by treaty to the Australian Government and funded by the taxpayer and any relevant business wishing to operate there.

It is not simply about 'Aboriginal issues'.  Any claim or demand by one group has direct effects on every member of Australia.  Similar to 'women's issues' and such these do not exist in a vacuum.

Depending on the model, it could mean permanent seats in Parliament for people who are only voted on by that one group (or groups) – those claiming Aboriginal descent.

To have a separate voice elected only by Aboriginals would mean that the current Aboriginal elected representatives are superfluous and should be stood down.

The claim to have 'never ceded sovereignty', means that elected Aborigines are ineligible to be chosen or to sit in Parliament.

44. Any person who –

(i.) Is under any acknowledgement of allegiance, obedience, or adherence to a foreign power, or is a subject or a citizen or entitled to the rights or privileges of a subject or citizen of a foreign power:

shall be incapable of being chosen or of sitting as a senator or a member of the House of Representatives.

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams
 
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Frank
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #193 - Nov 24th, 2022 at 8:48am
 
Already the idea that the voice will merely be an advisory body on legislation has been shown up as a lie. The Prime Minister has conceded only a “brave” government would go against its recommendations, meaning it will have a virtual veto over what the government and parliament does. But it’s Burney who has belled the cat on its real work with her admission last weekend that the voice would play a leading role in any negotiations for a treaty or series of treaties between the commonwealth and Australia’s 500-plus Indigenous tribes or clans. This is already happening in Victoria, which has created a First Peoples’ Assembly to be a voice to government and to “design a framework for future treaty negotiations”. The assembly was set up in 2019, although fewer than 8 per cent of Victoria’s 30,000 eligible Indigenous voters cast a vote.
https://www.theaustralian.com.au/commentary/lets-hear-it-for-equality-instead-of-avoice/news-story/b498c3592e01f0d7491460fed754f31d
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #194 - Nov 24th, 2022 at 9:02am
 
I TOLD YOU SO!

Clearly the wheels are falling of this absurd idea as we speak... though it seems Victoria has shot itself in the feet without so much as a reference to the people as a whole... clear sign of a dictatorial government.. and a clear reason to get rid of them.

Reinsert President Dan for Life and you will see what comes of it then... this VicVoice has been pretty quiet to date.... wait until that election... then I'll say in advance - I TOLD YOU SO!

(signed) former Labour and Union Man.
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