Australian Politics Forum - The Aboriginal Voice referendum

Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #330 - Dec 7^th, 2022 at 11:21pm

issuevoter wrote on Dec 7^th, 2022 at 8:31pm:

What does the "Aboriginal Voice" actually mean in legal terms?

Direct influence at every level of government by a body elected by a few on shaky grounds... the opportunity for 3% or so (even the Indigenous are rejecting the claimants who are clearly false) and their enablers to influence government at all levels and create such a storm that they can stop anything they don't like.

Imagine the position of a local Councillor who rejects something the local Voice wants.... be watching over his/her back every day.... we've already had attacks with fire on Councillors in Coffs Harbour as part of the silent war that includes Mt Warning vandalism of parked cars... and a few other things going on..

Imagine what it will be like to be a Councillor if this nonsense gets up and they feel 'aggrieved' at their pet idea of preference rejected?

Also - long ago now - I wrote little thing about why I would not vote for what I called Exlathumpians... (meaning feminists, OK? - I Told You So!!) ... simply because not only do they have their direct elected representation - but they have an outstanding body of fellow travelers in parties elected... on ALL sides ... who vote for and with them. Even the 'conservatives' contain a significant number of fellow travelers and enablers who will vote for this 'voice' and the ideas put forward by it regardless of reality for everyone else.... look at the madness of Perrotet in this push to hand over EVERY national park in NSW to FREEHOLD ownership by Aboriginal groups..... not 'native title' and 'shared usage' - FREEHOLD!

Just like this voice thing - we certainly don't need any more of them to influence our governments at all levels and start trouble if they are not listened to and their ideas not accepted 100%!

Vote NO for Sanity!!!!

Stand Against the Theft of YOUR National Parks!!!!

What you allow to be given away now - you will never see again..... and that includes the basic democracy by which this country operates, alongside your national parks, and your equal rights to fair popularly elected representation.. flawed as it is......

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Frank

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #331 - Dec 8^th, 2022 at 8:50am

This is the fatal flaw in the voice proposal. It isn’t the recognition on which everyone is broadly agreed. Instead, it’s subjecting all the processes of government to a form of Indigenous vetting. The only way such a proposal could possibly pass at a referendum is through pretending it’s less than it is; that it’s really just a requirement that Indigenous people be consulted on the matters that affect them and nothing more. Even then, as we have seen, the plan is about telling voters as little as possible about what’s proposed in the hope that goodwill alone gets it over the line and people don’t wake up to the broader co-governance model that lies at the heart of the voice movement.

As the New Zealand experience shows, the Waitangi Tribunal, intended to have purely advisory functions to help redress Maori grievances, has become in effect a binding, quasi-judicial body by virtue of expansionist interpretations by activist courts.

I can’t think of anything that would divide our country more than a referendum that fails because voters see through the spurious reassurances of its proponents; or one that succeeds only to leave many of those who supported it subsequently feeling they were conned. Especially if the voice’s early concerns aren’t practical ones such as the problems of substance abuse and school non-attendance in remote communities but demands for treaties and reparations for dispossession.
Credlin

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #332 - Dec 8^th, 2022 at 9:01am

One thing that struck me more than anything that anyone can intuit about the falsity of aboriginal oneness as a people, culture (maybe even ethnicity), are the rules by which aboriginal artists paint traditionally.

Aboriginal artists do not have the automatic 'right' to paint about country to which they don't belong simply because of their 'aboriginality' - they need permission from the clans of that country.

This is the greatest testament, by aboriginal peoples themselves, that they are peoples and not a people.

Oneness, in the sense that the Voice is presuming, does not exist among aboriginal peoples any more than it does within differing societies, cultures and ethnicities anywhere in the world regardless of geographical proximity or not.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #333 - Dec 8^th, 2022 at 10:51am

Johnnie wrote on Dec 7^th, 2022 at 9:54pm:

I vote for Abbos to go and get fkkn jobs that's what i would vote for with an unemployment rate at an all time low we need them to get off their black asses and do some fkkn work and send their kids to fkkn school and not leave them to sleep in fkkn skips while the Elders get fkkn pizzed as parots in the fkkn park.

Just to keep you in touch with reality:

https://www.msn.com/en-au/money/careersandeducation/quarter-of-a-million-unemplo...

Quarter of a million unemployed young Britons are planning to NEVER get a job, survey shows

"Almost half of those unemployed said they felt their education had not given them the skills to get a job, while 68 per cent of all young people reported feeling ill-equipped or not confident in their skill set when looking for a job.

City and Guilds CEO Kirstie Donnelly said those young people who face 'additional challenges' are falling behind their peers.

She said: 'High youth unemployment has been an issue for more than a decade and the pandemic was just another challenge heaped onto an already creaking system that makes it incredibly difficult for young people to convert their aspirations into good jobs.

'In addition, our research found that young people who have faced additional challenges, such as young carers, care and prison leavers and those who come from less affluent families, are falling way behind their peers in the labour market at the earliest stage of their careers.

'The current system is baking in inequality and preventing millions of young people from meeting their potential."

This in the UK which also has a listed unemployment rate of 3.6% (like Oz), so-called "low unemployment".

You are ignoring the nature of the current job market, and its demands for high skilled jobs.

Plus, the "low unemployment" stats are a sham: the number of underemployed and people who have given up looking for work and aren't even counted in the stats, has never been higher.

Which gets us back to blacks in Oz, and the chances they have in this current high-skills-requirement labour market.

Quote:

VOTE NO

OK, but either way the gap will remain to be closed. i

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #334 - Dec 8^th, 2022 at 11:02am

MeisterEckhart wrote on Dec 8^th, 2022 at 9:01am:

One thing that struck me more than anything that anyone can intuit about the falsity of aboriginal oneness as a people, culture (maybe even ethnicity), are the rules by which aboriginal artists paint traditionally.

Aboriginal artists do not have the automatic 'right' to paint about country to which they don't belong simply because of their 'aboriginality' - they need permission from the clans of that country.

This is the greatest testament, by aboriginal peoples themselves, that they are peoples and not a people.

Oneness, in the sense that the Voice is presuming, does not exist among aboriginal peoples any more than it does within differing societies, cultures and ethnicities anywhere in the world regardless of geographical proximity or not.

That's true, but the desire for prosperity is shared by all people everywhere.

The question is how to convert that desire into the reality of universal sustainable prosperity....
and - back to the acute problems in Oz - closing the gap.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #335 - Dec 8^th, 2022 at 11:08am

Frank wrote on Dec 8^th, 2022 at 8:50am:

Credlin:
"I can’t think of anything that would divide our country more than a referendum that fails"....

Of course she can't; she's a comfortable conservative who is blind to the massive division between comfortable prosperity and desperate poverty that already exists in our country, which is the impetus behind the flawed concept of a voice.

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MeisterEckhart Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 12498 Gender:	Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum Reply #336 - Dec 8^th, 2022 at 11:11am thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 8^th, 2022 at 11:02am: the desire for prosperity is shared by all people everywhere. Yes. a banal and obvious truth even children can grasp - like 'all people desire to sleep, breathe and eat food from time to time'.
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thegreatdivide

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #337 - Dec 8^th, 2022 at 11:31am

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Dec 7^th, 2022 at 2:58pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 7^th, 2022 at 1:46pm:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Dec 7^th, 2022 at 1:36pm:

Then how to you propose to get 'em sober? Use nice language? Say pretty please?

By dealing with 'one community at a time', offering advice to families where at least one member in each family is receptive (often the woman), to demonstrate the advantages of work and its monetary and social rewards, creating self-improvement by example...and initiating the social change necessary to close the gap.

Yes? And? We've seen how the women standing up has created a better life for all, eh? AlboCorp just stabbed them in the back by removing restrictions on alcohol etc as 'discriminatory', so it seems the courts must be given the power to restrict alcohol for some, not just by 'orders' but by blockade. Warren Mundine and I both have advocated listening to the victims first - then working it out... how are these victims in a savagely dysfunctional culture supposed to sway the rest to stop their evil ways?

I agree. But unlike you , I recogonize Albo is part of the problem because of his capture by neoliberal economics and his refusal to look at a JG.

Quote:

Go for it.... it's all yours.... but the hospitals and graveyards are full of uppity Aboriginal women who step out of line. You need only look at the hatred and vitriol and threats directed at Jacinta Price to see where that road leads....... those women, including Price, need to watch their backs every day.

Yes, it's dangerous to separate a drunk from his bottle.....

Quote:

Which ivory tower do you live in?

None, I know we have a systems problem, unlike the current mainstream economists inhabiting the ivory tower.

https://www.patreon.com/posts/macroeconomics-75639086

"In my lecture, I explain how bank credit adds to aggregate demand and income, and therefore how capitalism's great crises--the Great Depression, the Great Recession, the Panic of 1837, and so on--were caused by credit turning negative.

I also explain how we could remedy the economy via a "Modern Debt Jubilee". Of course, since Neoclassical economists dominate economic policy, I know that this policy has no better than a snowflake's chance in Hell of being implemented".

So there you have it, the Neoclassists dominate economic policy. Until this changes, closing the gap will be impossible.

Hence we have you and your defeatist narratives:

Quote:

Instead of cruising the streets like jackals looking for a crime to commit - the young men need to band together and provide protection for the innocent..... that's what being a True Warrior is about.... not all this hate on Whartey bullshit"

Of course, but how can they possibly know their hatred should be directed at the neoliberal economic system, rather than "whitey"?

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issuevoter Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 9200 The Great State of Mind Gender:	Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum Reply #338 - Dec 8^th, 2022 at 12:04pm This is all beside the point. What does the legislation look like? I'm starting to think nobody knows, which is not the best thing to vote for.
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thegreatdivide

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #339 - Dec 8^th, 2022 at 1:17pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on Dec 8^th, 2022 at 11:11am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 8^th, 2022 at 11:02am:

the desire for prosperity is shared by all people everywhere.

Yes. a banal and obvious truth even children can grasp - like 'all people desire to sleep, breathe and eat food from time to time'.

"Banal and obvious" , only to a comfortable, fake "freedom values" ideologue like yourself.

"Sleeping, breathing and eating" aren't "desired", they are basic instinctive physiological natural processes of living organisms. See how easy it is to refute your greedy, fake "freedom values" ideology....

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #340 - Dec 8^th, 2022 at 1:23pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 8^th, 2022 at 1:17pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Dec 8^th, 2022 at 11:11am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 8^th, 2022 at 11:02am:

the desire for prosperity is shared by all people everywhere.

Yes. a banal and obvious truth even children can grasp - like 'all people desire to sleep, breathe and eat food from time to time'.

"Banal and obvious" , only to a comfortable, fake "freedom values" ideologue like yourself.

"Sleeping, breathing and eating" aren't "desired", they are basic instinctive physiological natural processes of living organisms. See how easy it is to refute your greedy, fake "freedom values" ideology....

Who doesn't desire prosperity? Have a think.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #341 - Dec 8^th, 2022 at 1:30pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on Dec 8^th, 2022 at 1:23pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 8^th, 2022 at 1:17pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Dec 8^th, 2022 at 11:11am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 8^th, 2022 at 11:02am:

the desire for prosperity is shared by all people everywhere.

Yes. a banal and obvious truth even children can grasp - like 'all people desire to sleep, breathe and eat food from time to time'.

"Banal and obvious" , only to a comfortable, fake "freedom values" ideologue like yourself.

"Sleeping, breathing and eating" aren't "desired", they are basic instinctive physiological natural processes of living organisms. See how easy it is to refute your greedy, fake "freedom values" ideology....

Who doesn't desire prosperity? Have a think.

So....another question ....after your previous effort fell flat...

Answer: greedy, fake 'freedom' ideologues who put their own prosperity above others, hiding behind obsolete classical economic concepts of 'scarcity'.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #342 - Dec 8^th, 2022 at 1:43pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 8^th, 2022 at 1:30pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Dec 8^th, 2022 at 1:23pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 8^th, 2022 at 1:17pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Dec 8^th, 2022 at 11:11am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 8^th, 2022 at 11:02am:

the desire for prosperity is shared by all people everywhere.

Yes. a banal and obvious truth even children can grasp - like 'all people desire to sleep, breathe and eat food from time to time'.

"Banal and obvious" , only to a comfortable, fake "freedom values" ideologue like yourself.

"Sleeping, breathing and eating" aren't "desired", they are basic instinctive physiological natural processes of living organisms. See how easy it is to refute your greedy, fake "freedom values" ideology....

Who doesn't desire prosperity? Have a think.

So....another question ....after your previous effort fell flat...

Answer: greedy, fake 'freedom' ideologues who put their own prosperity above others, hiding behind obsolete classical economic concepts of 'scarcity'.

Too late. The CCP is proving even to the Chinese people what it is. The world always knew, but the last 2 years have proved it.

The CCP puts its leaders' accumulation of stolen wealth above the lives of the Chinese people, let alone their prosperity.

The people having to pay for covid tests and for their incarceration in covid concentration camps... Oh, the prosperity.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRNwqBKVWlw

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #343 - Dec 8^th, 2022 at 1:59pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 8^th, 2022 at 11:31am:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Dec 7^th, 2022 at 2:58pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 7^th, 2022 at 1:46pm:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Dec 7^th, 2022 at 1:36pm:

Then how to you propose to get 'em sober? Use nice language? Say pretty please?

By dealing with 'one community at a time', offering advice to families where at least one member in each family is receptive (often the woman), to demonstrate the advantages of work and its monetary and social rewards, creating self-improvement by example...and initiating the social change necessary to close the gap.

Yes? And? We've seen how the women standing up has created a better life for all, eh? AlboCorp just stabbed them in the back by removing restrictions on alcohol etc as 'discriminatory', so it seems the courts must be given the power to restrict alcohol for some, not just by 'orders' but by blockade. Warren Mundine and I both have advocated listening to the victims first - then working it out... how are these victims in a savagely dysfunctional culture supposed to sway the rest to stop their evil ways?

I agree. But unlike you , I recogonize Albo is part of the problem because of his capture by neoliberal economics and his refusal to look at a JG.

Quote:

Go for it.... it's all yours.... but the hospitals and graveyards are full of uppity Aboriginal women who step out of line. You need only look at the hatred and vitriol and threats directed at Jacinta Price to see where that road leads....... those women, including Price, need to watch their backs every day.

Yes, it's dangerous to separate a drunk from his bottle.....

Quote:

Which ivory tower do you live in?

None, I know we have a systems problem, unlike the current mainstream economists inhabiting the ivory tower.

https://www.patreon.com/posts/macroeconomics-75639086

"In my lecture, I explain how bank credit adds to aggregate demand and income, and therefore how capitalism's great crises--the Great Depression, the Great Recession, the Panic of 1837, and so on--were caused by credit turning negative.

I also explain how we could remedy the economy via a "Modern Debt Jubilee". Of course, since Neoclassical economists dominate economic policy, I know that this policy has no better than a snowflake's chance in Hell of being implemented".

So there you have it, the Neoclassists dominate economic policy. Until this changes, closing the gap will be impossible.

Hence we have you and your defeatist narratives:

Quote:

Instead of cruising the streets like jackals looking for a crime to commit - the young men need to band together and provide protection for the innocent..... that's what being a True Warrior is about.... not all this hate on Whartey bullshit"

Of course, but how can they possibly know their hatred should be directed at the neoliberal economic system, rather than "whitey"?

Clearly you do not understand simple English.... I just panned Albocorp AND ALWAYS DO and you say that unlike you, I do not see him as part of the problem...

Amazing .... simply amazing.

It seems to me I know far more of the problem and the problems than you do.....

Maybe they could be educated into the understanding that warring against Whitey will bring about their Downfall... anger is rising in the community as we speak...

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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Johnnie

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #344 - Dec 8^th, 2022 at 3:02pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 8^th, 2022 at 10:51am:

Johnnie wrote on Dec 7^th, 2022 at 9:54pm:

I vote for Abbos to go and get fkkn jobs that's what i would vote for with an unemployment rate at an all time low we need them to get off their black asses and do some fkkn work and send their kids to fkkn school and not leave them to sleep in fkkn skips while the Elders get fkkn pizzed as parots in the fkkn park.

Just to keep you in touch with reality:

https://www.msn.com/en-au/money/careersandeducation/quarter-of-a-million-unemplo...

Quarter of a million unemployed young Britons are planning to NEVER get a job, survey shows

"Almost half of those unemployed said they felt their education had not given them the skills to get a job, while 68 per cent of all young people reported feeling ill-equipped or not confident in their skill set when looking for a job.

City and Guilds CEO Kirstie Donnelly said those young people who face 'additional challenges' are falling behind their peers.

She said: 'High youth unemployment has been an issue for more than a decade and the pandemic was just another challenge heaped onto an already creaking system that makes it incredibly difficult for young people to convert their aspirations into good jobs.

'In addition, our research found that young people who have faced additional challenges, such as young carers, care and prison leavers and those who come from less affluent families, are falling way behind their peers in the labour market at the earliest stage of their careers.

'The current system is baking in inequality and preventing millions of young people from meeting their potential."

This in the UK which also has a listed unemployment rate of 3.6% (like Oz), so-called "low unemployment".

You are ignoring the nature of the current job market, and its demands for high skilled jobs.

Plus, the "low unemployment" stats are a sham: the number of underemployed and people who have given up looking for work and aren't even counted in the stats, has never been higher.

Which gets us back to blacks in Oz, and the chances they have in this current high-skills-requirement labour market.

Quote:

VOTE NO

OK, but either way the gap will remain to be closed. i

About 18 onths ago the government scrapped all Abbo work programmes mainly in remote areas, at the same time they scrapped work for the dole for them because after decades and hundreds of millons of dollars they finally realised they simply don't turn up and I could have told them that from day 1, they are a lazy people, they can't even get up and get their kids to the provided for schools and closing this gap thing starts right there and it starts with them.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

No more handouts, no more mollycoddling, get on their cases and get their asses into gear, how and why do we contunue to support 250,000 plus Abbos who choose to live in places where there are zero jobs.

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Poll
Question: Will the referendum be voted in?
* This poll has now closed *
No 42 (75.0%) Yes 14 (25.0%) Total votes: 56 « Last Modified by: Redmond Neck on: Feb 25^th, 2023 at 11:17am »