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The Aboriginal Voice referendum (Read 99535 times)

Frank

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #450 - Dec 26^th, 2022 at 10:08am

issuevoter wrote on Dec 25^th, 2022 at 10:30pm:

I might vote for it, but I would have to see what I'm voting for first.

You will be asked to vote on inserting this into the constitution:

On 30 July 2022, Prime Minister Anthony Albanese announced draft words for a constitutional amendment on an Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice. He also proposed a draft question to be put to the Australian people at a referendum. The draft words to be added to the Constitution are:

There shall be a body, to be called the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice.
The Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice may make representations to Parliament and the Executive Government on matters relating to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples.
The Parliament shall, subject to this Constitution, have power to make laws with respect to the composition, functions, powers and procedures of the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice
.

The draft referendum question is:

"Do you support an alteration to the Constitution that establishes an Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice?"

These words will form the basis for further consultation with both First Nations people and the broader Australian public. The Government will work with First Nations leaders to settle referendum details, including timing.
https://www.niaa.gov.au/indigenous-affairs/referendum-aboriginal-and-torres-stra...

The details will be worked out AFTER the amendment is inserted (if the referendum is successful).

This is a pig in a poke referendum - vote YES first and your political betters will sort out the details later, don't you worry about that.

Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #451 - Dec 26^th, 2022 at 1:09pm

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Dec 25^th, 2022 at 5:37pm:

Just a glitch.....

The general consensus is definitely NO - only a total fool would vote for it.

True to form Graps, confusing your desires with those of the general population ...53% in favour at present (according to the Roy Morgan poll) - whether "total fools" or not - isn't "just a glitch".

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #452 - Dec 26^th, 2022 at 1:29pm

Frank wrote on Dec 26^th, 2022 at 10:08am:

issuevoter wrote on Dec 25^th, 2022 at 10:30pm:

I might vote for it, but I would have to see what I'm voting for first.

You will be asked to vote on inserting this into the constitution:

On 30 July 2022, Prime Minister Anthony Albanese announced draft words for a constitutional amendment on an Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice. He also proposed a draft question to be put to the Australian people at a referendum. The draft words to be added to the Constitution are:

There shall be a body, to be called the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice.
The Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice may make representations to Parliament and the Executive Government on matters relating to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples.
The Parliament shall, subject to this Constitution, have power to make laws with respect to the composition, functions, powers and procedures of the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice
.

The draft referendum question is:

"Do you support an alteration to the Constitution that establishes an Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice?"

These words will form the basis for further consultation with both First Nations people and the broader Australian public. The Government will work with First Nations leaders to settle referendum details, including timing.
https://www.niaa.gov.au/indigenous-affairs/referendum-aboriginal-and-torres-stra...

The details will be worked out AFTER the amendment is inserted (if the referendum is successful).

This is a pig in a poke referendum - vote YES first and your political betters will sort out the details later, don't you worry about that.

Note: "the Parliament shall have power"......not the Government which rarely has control of both houses of parliament, so perhaps your worries are overblown.

For my part, I propose an alternative question to be put to the people:

How would you like to close the gap?

Now THAT would put the cat among the pigeons....

and no constitutional change required.

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Frank

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #453 - Dec 26^th, 2022 at 1:55pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 26^th, 2022 at 1:29pm:

Frank wrote on Dec 26^th, 2022 at 10:08am:

issuevoter wrote on Dec 25^th, 2022 at 10:30pm:

I might vote for it, but I would have to see what I'm voting for first.

You will be asked to vote on inserting this into the constitution:

On 30 July 2022, Prime Minister Anthony Albanese announced draft words for a constitutional amendment on an Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice. He also proposed a draft question to be put to the Australian people at a referendum. The draft words to be added to the Constitution are:

There shall be a body, to be called the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice.
The Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice may make representations to Parliament and the Executive Government on matters relating to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples.
The Parliament shall, subject to this Constitution, have power to make laws with respect to the composition, functions, powers and procedures of the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice
.

The draft referendum question is:

"Do you support an alteration to the Constitution that establishes an Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice?"

These words will form the basis for further consultation with both First Nations people and the broader Australian public. The Government will work with First Nations leaders to settle referendum details, including timing.
https://www.niaa.gov.au/indigenous-affairs/referendum-aboriginal-and-torres-stra...

The details will be worked out AFTER the amendment is inserted (if the referendum is successful).

This is a pig in a poke referendum - vote YES first and your political betters will sort out the details later, don't you worry about that.

Note: "the Parliament shall have power"......not the Government which rarely has control of both houses of parliament, so perhaps your worries are overblown.

For my part, I propose an alternative question to be put to the people:

How would you like to close the gap?

Now THAT would put the cat among the pigeons....

and no constitutional change required.

What prevents Aborigines from closing the gap?

If millions of immigrant with nothing but a suitcase could close the gap, why can't Aborigines?

Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #454 - Dec 26^th, 2022 at 3:14pm

Frank wrote on Dec 26^th, 2022 at 1:55pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 26^th, 2022 at 1:29pm:

Frank wrote on Dec 26^th, 2022 at 10:08am:

issuevoter wrote on Dec 25^th, 2022 at 10:30pm:

I might vote for it, but I would have to see what I'm voting for first.

You will be asked to vote on inserting this into the constitution:

On 30 July 2022, Prime Minister Anthony Albanese announced draft words for a constitutional amendment on an Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice. He also proposed a draft question to be put to the Australian people at a referendum. The draft words to be added to the Constitution are:

There shall be a body, to be called the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice.
The Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice may make representations to Parliament and the Executive Government on matters relating to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples.
The Parliament shall, subject to this Constitution, have power to make laws with respect to the composition, functions, powers and procedures of the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice
.

The draft referendum question is:

"Do you support an alteration to the Constitution that establishes an Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice?"

These words will form the basis for further consultation with both First Nations people and the broader Australian public. The Government will work with First Nations leaders to settle referendum details, including timing.
https://www.niaa.gov.au/indigenous-affairs/referendum-aboriginal-and-torres-stra...

The details will be worked out AFTER the amendment is inserted (if the referendum is successful).

This is a pig in a poke referendum - vote YES first and your political betters will sort out the details later, don't you worry about that.

Note: "the Parliament shall have power"......not the Government which rarely has control of both houses of parliament, so perhaps your worries are overblown.

For my part, I propose an alternative question to be put to the people:

How would you like to close the gap?

Now THAT would put the cat among the pigeons....

and no constitutional change required.

What prevents Aborigines from closing the gap?

If millions of immigrant with nothing but a suitcase could close the gap, why can't Aborigines?

because those immigrants already know how business works in a modern economy, whereas Oz blacks are (culturally) torn between an ancient non-money economy and the modern money economy.

Plus of course the current vicious NAIRU neoliberal economy forces the least competitive (black or white) onto the unemployment scrap heap; ie, blacks are doubly disadvantaged, by culture AND systemic unemployment.

And most immigrants likely represent the more capable among the citizens of the countries from which they emigrated.

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Frank

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #455 - Dec 26^th, 2022 at 4:17pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 26^th, 2022 at 3:14pm:

Frank wrote on Dec 26^th, 2022 at 1:55pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 26^th, 2022 at 1:29pm:

Frank wrote on Dec 26^th, 2022 at 10:08am:

issuevoter wrote on Dec 25^th, 2022 at 10:30pm:

I might vote for it, but I would have to see what I'm voting for first.

You will be asked to vote on inserting this into the constitution:

On 30 July 2022, Prime Minister Anthony Albanese announced draft words for a constitutional amendment on an Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice. He also proposed a draft question to be put to the Australian people at a referendum. The draft words to be added to the Constitution are:

There shall be a body, to be called the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice.
The Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice may make representations to Parliament and the Executive Government on matters relating to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples.
The Parliament shall, subject to this Constitution, have power to make laws with respect to the composition, functions, powers and procedures of the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice
.

The draft referendum question is:

"Do you support an alteration to the Constitution that establishes an Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice?"

These words will form the basis for further consultation with both First Nations people and the broader Australian public. The Government will work with First Nations leaders to settle referendum details, including timing.
https://www.niaa.gov.au/indigenous-affairs/referendum-aboriginal-and-torres-stra...

The details will be worked out AFTER the amendment is inserted (if the referendum is successful).

This is a pig in a poke referendum - vote YES first and your political betters will sort out the details later, don't you worry about that.

Note: "the Parliament shall have power"......not the Government which rarely has control of both houses of parliament, so perhaps your worries are overblown.

For my part, I propose an alternative question to be put to the people:

How would you like to close the gap?

Now THAT would put the cat among the pigeons....

and no constitutional change required.

What prevents Aborigines from closing the gap?

If millions of immigrant with nothing but a suitcase could close the gap, why can't Aborigines?

because those immigrants already know how business works in a modern economy, whereas Oz blacks are (culturally) torn between an ancient non-money economy and the modern money economy.

Plus of course the current vicious NAIRU neoliberal economy forces the least competitive (black or white) onto the unemployment scrap heap; ie, blacks are doubly disadvantaged, by culture AND systemic unemployment.

And most immigrants likely represent the more capable among the citizens of the countries from which they emigrated.

In short, everyone can adapt to changing circumstances but Aborigines.

Well, that's more bollocks from you.

Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #456 - Dec 26^th, 2022 at 4:18pm

"On final approach, suddenly the Voiceliner strikes mild turbulence... the automaton PM attempts to correct the sudden change in attitude.... but somehow the aircraft continues to bank further and further to the left...the pilots desperately struggle to regain control ....... to add to their woes, suddenly a huge storm blows up with a massive wind against them ....... heavy hail fogs their vision and cracks begin to appear in the wing roots....... desperately they wrestle with the controls, but it is too late and the Voiceliner rolls completely over....... the opposition has woken and nothing can save the doomed Voiceliner....... which strikes the ground and shatters into a million pieces....."

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #457 - Dec 27^th, 2022 at 10:46am

Frank wrote on Dec 26^th, 2022 at 4:17pm:

In short, everyone can adapt to changing circumstances but Aborigines.

well, in short, yes.

1. A smashed culture.
2. legal discrimination ("terra nullius") until recently, and ongoing actual social discrimination relating to poverty and family dysfunction, meaning ongoing generational poverty is still the reality.

Quote:

Well, that's more bollocks from you.

refuted above.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #458 - Dec 27^th, 2022 at 10:52am

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Dec 26^th, 2022 at 4:18pm:

"On final approach, suddenly the Voiceliner strikes mild turbulence... the automaton PM attempts to correct the sudden change in attitude.... but somehow the aircraft continues to bank further and further to the left...the pilots desperately struggle to regain control ....... to add to their woes, suddenly a huge storm blows up with a massive wind against them ....... heavy hail fogs their vision and cracks begin to appear in the wing roots....... desperately they wrestle with the controls, but it is too late and the Voiceliner rolls completely over....... the opposition has woken and nothing can save the doomed Voiceliner....... which strikes the ground and shatters into a million pieces....."

Never mind the "Voiceliner"; the elephant in the room is the delusional 'natural rights' ideology still ascendent in the liberal democracies.

Law is made by men, it is not inherent in human nature.

If you want peace with sustainable development, you will need laws to engender same.

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issuevoter

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #459 - Dec 27^th, 2022 at 11:13am

I cannot accept the argument that Aboriginals don't know how modern economies work, any more than any white person who does not know how to bargain, or make money through entrepreneurial creativity. Most people are workers within an enterprise, otherwise they would go out and start their own business. This argument makes excuses for present day aboriginals, at least the ones who are not entrepreneurial. If indigenous people can manage a mobile phone, they know what's going on. Most deal with banks and Centrelink.

No political allegiance. No philosophy. No religion.

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Frank

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #460 - Dec 27^th, 2022 at 11:15am

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 27^th, 2022 at 10:52am:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Dec 26^th, 2022 at 4:18pm:

"On final approach, suddenly the Voiceliner strikes mild turbulence... the automaton PM attempts to correct the sudden change in attitude.... but somehow the aircraft continues to bank further and further to the left...the pilots desperately struggle to regain control ....... to add to their woes, suddenly a huge storm blows up with a massive wind against them ....... heavy hail fogs their vision and cracks begin to appear in the wing roots....... desperately they wrestle with the controls, but it is too late and the Voiceliner rolls completely over....... the opposition has woken and nothing can save the doomed Voiceliner....... which strikes the ground and shatters into a million pieces....."

Never mind the "Voiceliner"; the elephant in the room is the delusional 'natural rights' ideology still ascendent in the liberal democracies.

Law is made by men, it is not inherent in human nature.

If you want peace with sustainable development, you will need laws to engender same.

There are some natural rights. When you recognise someone as a human being you thereby recognise the inherent, naturally present characteristics of humanity. He is not a fish or a tree or a clump of earth. What are the naturally present and instantly recognised human characteristics in YOU? On what basis do you recognise YOURSELF as a human being? Do you recognise those characteristics as being also present in all other human beings but not in all other non-human beings and things?

Is your reasoning sound or arbitrary and unpredictable, random? Can you tell the difference between sound reasoning and random chaos? Good and bad? Pertinent and irrelevant?

Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #461 - Dec 27^th, 2022 at 12:21pm

Frank wrote on Dec 27^th, 2022 at 11:15am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 27^th, 2022 at 10:52am:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Dec 26^th, 2022 at 4:18pm:

"On final approach, suddenly the Voiceliner strikes mild turbulence... the automaton PM attempts to correct the sudden change in attitude.... but somehow the aircraft continues to bank further and further to the left...the pilots desperately struggle to regain control ....... to add to their woes, suddenly a huge storm blows up with a massive wind against them ....... heavy hail fogs their vision and cracks begin to appear in the wing roots....... desperately they wrestle with the controls, but it is too late and the Voiceliner rolls completely over....... the opposition has woken and nothing can save the doomed Voiceliner....... which strikes the ground and shatters into a million pieces....."

Never mind the "Voiceliner"; the elephant in the room is the delusional 'natural rights' ideology still ascendent in the liberal democracies.

Law is made by men, it is not inherent in human nature.

If you want peace with sustainable development, you will need laws to engender same.

There are some natural rights. When you recognise someone as a human being you thereby recognise the inherent, naturally present characteristics of humanity. He is not a fish or a tree or a clump of earth. What are the naturally present and instantly recognised human characteristics in YOU? On what basis do you recognise YOURSELF as a human being? Do you recognise those characteristics as being also present in all other human beings but not in all other non-human beings and things?

Is your reasoning sound or arbitrary and unpredictable, random? Can you tell the difference between sound reasoning and random chaos? Good and bad? Pertinent and irrelevant?

... and he is not a vassal of the state and subservient to it as some cattle in the fields subject to his superiors.... it is, rather, the state that is created to do his bidding ... not perfectly and to do so under his direct control - but within parameters that guarantee proper conduct on the part of the state... to which end laws are created along with and themselves subservient to the overall rule that all laws created by man must obey the code of being fair, equitable, and just... it is not therefore possible for a state to create out of whole cloth or thin air, laws which are inherently unjust, discriminatory, abusive, or downright dangerous to all or part of the citizenry.

A tissue of false laws is not the rule of law - that is the rule of despotism and tyranny via law - the rule of law is that all laws themselves must be lawful or not at all.

On that final plank of this platform, many 'laws' recently passed fail the test of lawfulness... and we are now hearing that 'failing to call some turkey by his/her chosen pronoun should be a felony offence'.... madness has taken over the rule of law since it was deliberately poisoned by governments seeking to dismantle the fundamental power of the individual..... and replace reason and fair play with rule by emotion......

**interestingly - the striving by the Labor Party to dismantle the power of the individual voter and architect of democracy in the name of some great egalitarian social revolution to favour some over others, and reduce him to being a vassal of the state and under its sway totally, has resulted in its own Downfall via destruction of the Union movement built primarily by the prime targets for disempowerment, men, and this has lead us to the rise and rise of a disastrous feminocracy and matriarchy with no sense other than emotion ..... and so it does on and on..... when they came for the men via affirmative action - I said plenty - you said nothing ..... when they came for the DV defendants - I said plenty... you said nothing..... when they came for the rape accused - you said nothing - I spoke out......

When they come for you should I speak out again and again risk being attacked personally? Or should I just say............... (rolling thunder growing louder) .......................

I TOLD YOU SO!!!

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #462 - Dec 27^th, 2022 at 12:32pm

issuevoter wrote on Dec 27^th, 2022 at 11:13am:

I cannot accept the argument that Aboriginals don't know how modern economies work, any more than any white person who does not know how to bargain, or make money through entrepreneurial creativity. Most people are workers within an enterprise, otherwise they would go out and start their own business. This argument makes excuses for present day aboriginals, at least the ones who are not entrepreneurial. If indigenous people can manage a mobile phone, they know what's going on. Most deal with banks and Centrelink.

The point is the attachment - among the surviving present day aboriginals - to an anachronistic 'culture', aided and abetted by legal scholars like Megan Davis who promote fictions like "land rights".

And indeed most people, white or black, are not entrepreneurs driven solely by personal financial gain, and most workers have to compete in a neoliberal job market which forces the least competitive onto the unemployment scrap heap.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #463 - Dec 27^th, 2022 at 12:49pm

Frank wrote on Dec 27^th, 2022 at 11:15am:

There are some natural rights.

Nice to see you joining the debate....

Can you say what those 'natural rights' are?

Quote:

When you recognise someone as a human being you thereby recognise the inherent, naturally present characteristics of humanity.

Yes. One 'fool' (or visionary) even suggested we should "love one another" (!)....

Quote:

He is not a fish or a tree or a clump of earth.

Nice to see you getting some basic facts right.

Quote:

What are the naturally present and instantly recognised human characteristics in YOU? On what basis do you recognise YOURSELF as a human being? Do you recognise those characteristics as being also present in all other human beings but not in all other non-human beings and things?

All questions which are not easily answered because we are all driven by instinct, ego and emotion, as well as rationality (sadly, a distant fourth).

Quote:

Is your reasoning sound or arbitrary and unpredictable, random?

Probably all of those things at different times and in different circumstances.

Quote:

Can you tell the difference between sound reasoning and random chaos? Good and bad? Pertinent and irrelevant?

I think so.

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #464 - Dec 27^th, 2022 at 1:05pm

Human laws are designed around fundamental human characteristics, and are allegedly designed to perform to the best side of humanity... the absolute and unquestioning belief that all should be subservient to any law or any kind is inherently dangerous to humanity and to all human principles.

It was once legal to own slaves....... and so forth.....

Basic natural rights? Essentially to be left alone while doing no harm to others...... look at the insane people on this board who insist on dragging others into their ideological ideas and demanding that they adhere to one idea only and just plain give in to bullying in many forms... and all the while crying to high heaven that they are the victims here ...

You know the ones....

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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