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Poll closed Poll
Question: Will the referendum be voted in?
*** This poll has now closed ***


No    
  42 (75.0%)
Yes    
  14 (25.0%)




Total votes: 56
« Last Modified by: Redmond Neck on: Feb 25th, 2023 at 11:17am »

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The Aboriginal Voice referendum (Read 100879 times)
John Smith
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #495 - Jan 3rd, 2023 at 6:12am
 
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jan 2nd, 2023 at 3:24pm:
John Smith wrote on Jan 2nd, 2023 at 3:01pm:
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jan 2nd, 2023 at 2:47pm:
John Smith wrote on Jan 2nd, 2023 at 12:02pm:
AusGeoff wrote on Jan 2nd, 2023 at 11:43am:
Which raises the question:  should a relatively small Aboriginal population be
given any Constitutional legislative power specific to that group alone?



but at no stage does anything proposed give them any legislative power
Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy


If you're going to cry so much about something, at least TRY to understand what it is you're crying about


Not yet - but haven't you ever heard of 'mission creep' and 'definition creep'?

So you admit you and Geoff make crap up to feed your racism  .... that's a start I suppose


Go back to sleep - discussion is not your thing.


No, fantasy is not my thing. I prefer facts, something you tend to stear clear off
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Frank
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #496 - Jan 3rd, 2023 at 10:21am
 
Frank wrote on Jan 2nd, 2023 at 11:17pm:
The Indigenous voice has entered the slow, long death dive of Australian referendums. Unless it pulls out, it will crash and burn on polling day.

The problem is not malice, trickery or incompetence. It is the absolute refusal of the Albanese government to provide details for the voice. The red lights are flashing clearly. Statistically, recent polls show support for the voice collapsing as the referendum slowly draws closer. This is typical of Australian referendums, but this early and for a referendum without detail it is catastrophic.

As a director of the pro-voice organisation Uphold and Recognise, I have been involved in numerous attempts to bring out wise, respected, moderate Australians in favour of the voice. Much less than a handful have agreed. The polite refusals are all the same. Eminent Australians will not back the voice until they know what it is.

Yet it seems a point of honour with the government that it would rather die than divulge, even if this takes the referendum with it.
....
Inevitably, a confusing and sometimes misleading campaign will result in most of the Undecideds voting against the voice. Just as depressing is the softness underlying approval of the voice. About a third of the Yes vote is a present inclination rather than a firm vote.

Yet another problem is that, as much as the Prime Minister says this referendum does not belong to him or Labor, it does. The polls show support for the voice overwhelmingly comes from Labor voters and other progressives. Support from conservatives is miserably thin. A bipartisan referendum this is not. But the knockout blow comes from electors demanding exactly the sort of detail Labor just will not give.

Only half those supporting the voice think they have enough information to vote. Undecided voters overwhelmingly demand more information. This is a train wreck willing itself to happen. But Labor’s refusal to elaborate is unflinching. Its only theoretical attempt to justify its ban on detail is an absolute proposition that with constitutional amendments you put the principle in the Constitution and leave the undisclosed guts for future legislation. This is not fair dealing with the public.
...
What will be the name of the voice? Calma-Langton and Albanese sensibly go with “Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples voice”. Some Indigenous radicals want the divisive “First Nations voice”. Which is it? How does someone get on to the voice? Will you be elected or appointed as a representative by local bodies? Calma-Langton wisely avoids the politics of election. So is this the idea? Which local bodies will feed into the national voice and keep it firmly grounded in Indigenous people and problems, and how? What government action will be scrutinised by the voice? The proposed draft says “matters relating to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples”. But does this catch only specially connected matters or also general laws inevitably affecting Indigenous people?

Albanese apparently says general amendments to Medicare would not be caught. Is that right? Is it totally up to parliament when and whether it consults the voice, or are there some situations where parliament is obliged to consult? Calma-Langton says yes. What does the government think? Will the government stick with its draft amendment subjecting executive action to the consultation requirements of the voice? Rightly or wrongly, people will worry this could involve the judges. Is the worry worth the gain?
On the issue of the judges enforcing the voice, Calma-Langton wisely said they should not but did not offer a specific legal formula to prevent it. Some eminent lawyers do not think judicial intervention a realistic problem. But between genuine worry and conscious mischief, what (if anything) should or could be done about it? Again, Calma-Langton proposed that the voice would be kept away from loads of money and resources, so preventing the standard accusations of a new Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Commission. Is this the idea? Every public body needs assurance. The ultimate assurance is sacking someone who acts inappropriately. Calma-Langton says only the voice should be able to sack one of its members. Is this a problem?

Finally, the sternest criticism is it will make no difference on the ground to real problems such as family violence, poor educational outcomes and appalling health. Have we considered putting legislative priorities over the voice requiring it to focus on these policy failures?

None of these questions is meant negatively. Each is a genuine query that reasonably can be asked by strong supporters of the voice to understand the proposal and to answer ill-willed criticism.

Greg Craven is a constitutional lawyer and a former vice-chancellor of the Australian Catholic University. He is a member of the federal government’s constitutional experts group.

...
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thegreatdivide
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #497 - Jan 3rd, 2023 at 12:07pm
 
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jan 2nd, 2023 at 2:55pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 2nd, 2023 at 7:58am:
[quote author=The_Grappler link=1664785668/482#482 date=1672559025]... is going down, baby - just going down...... nobody real wants such a monstrosity.


Maybe so: and the voice will have little utility for actually closing the gap (as the federal Nats have said...)

Quote:
If you were all ears, dividie - you'd have seen the real wage/income differences posted time after time. 


I understand you are choosing your own parameters to try to advance your theory of female advantage. Hence you can't provide an article to refute the WGEA figures showing women take home less weekly pay EARNINGS than men on average

Never mind, those figures are also irrelevant to closing the (black) gap. 

Quote:
  Clearly you choose not to see them - now you refute them... the WGEA is all lies.


Well.. the gender wage gap is up for debate (though largely irrelevant as shown below AGAIN) whereas the black gap is NOT lies, despite your protestations.  


Quote:
You do understand the difference between pay rates and overall EARNINGS, don't you?


Yes.....and the former are irrelevant to actual spending power which is determined by earnings per week and per year.   

Quote:
The WGEA IS all lies as proven time and again... and Black Gaps are primarily of their own creation, as again proven time and again.


Just more crying from a blind Libertarian ideologue, on both counts. The spending power advantage is still enjoyed by men on average;  and the black gap is real. 

(quick google)

"Worldwide, the average difference in annual spending power between men and women will nearly double from $236.62 today (in 2011 PPP) to $467.17 by the end of 2030, an increase of 97.43% in favor of men.18 June 2019"

Quote:
Just for you again - so you can just not read and understand it at all, but persist with your dogma hoping you can wear sensible people down....


It's not me "wearing sensible people (sic) down"; it's research like that quoted above re spending power.

Quote:
Women worked 36.4 hours pw on average, earned $1672.45
 

so far so good, for women in the paid workforce; some women were supported by male partners (much more than females supporting male partners in the paid workforce).   

Quote:
Average working weeks is 37.5 hours – so we add 1.1 hours worth to women's overall income

= $1723 for a 37.5 hour week.


WTF!....women work less in the PAID workforce for reasons of biology (caring for babies and kids)

Quote:
Men worked 41 hours pw on average, earned $1955.45

At 37.5 hour average week – we must take away 3.5 hours pay to attain equity.


WTF! You want men to stay home and suckle the kids?

Quote:
Ergo - $1955.45 - $166.92 = $1788.53 for a 37.5 hour week...

..then we must remove the half time penalty component from the extra 3.5 hours = 3.5 x $23.85 = $83.48.

Ergo - for a 37.5 hour week men would be paid  $1788.53 - $83.48 =  $1705.05.

ERGO:-  For an ordinary 37.5 hour week women are paid  $18 pw more than men, not including additions for conditions such as wet, weather, dust, remoteness, underground, height and so forth.[/b][/i]

(2)    https://www.abs.gov.au/statistics/labour/earnings-and-working-conditions/average...

Men:-  $2075.30 public sector + 1835.60 private sector/2
= average 1955.45/ 36.1 average hours worked*
= $54.17 per hour actually worked.

Women:-  $1821.30 public sector + 1523.60 private sector/2
= average $1672.45/ 28.825 average hour worked*
= $58.02 per hour actually worked.

https://www.ceicdata.com/en/australia/actual-hours-worked/actual-hours-worked


All that to show something I conceded might be true long ago; but you refuse to acknowledge that men are still the main breadwinners and still earn more money than women ...aka spending power, as shown above.

Quote:
Now don't come back with your bullsh
i
t again - if you can work those figures and come up with different answers, do so - otherwise you are refuting nothing - just being an ass and stonewalling like a troll because you KNOW you are wrong, girlie.


Addressed, and refuted above.

Stop being envious of women.

You have to somehow grow out of your blind Libertarian ideology which ends up blaming the victims of poverty rather than the perpetrators (fundamentally, neoclassical central bankers, another story).
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thegreatdivide
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #498 - Jan 3rd, 2023 at 1:07pm
 
Frank wrote on Jan 3rd, 2023 at 10:21am:
Frank wrote on Jan 2nd, 2023 at 11:17pm:
The Indigenous voice has entered the slow, long death dive of Australian referendums. Unless it pulls out, it will crash and burn on polling day.

The problem is not malice, trickery or incompetence. It is the absolute refusal of the Albanese government to provide details for the voice. The red lights are flashing clearly. Statistically, recent polls show support for the voice collapsing as the referendum slowly draws closer. This is typical of Australian referendums, but this early and for a referendum without detail it is catastrophic.

As a director of the pro-voice organisation Uphold and Recognise, I have been involved in numerous attempts to bring out wise, respected, moderate Australians in favour of the voice. Much less than a handful have agreed. The polite refusals are all the same. Eminent Australians will not back the voice until they know what it is.

Yet it seems a point of honour with the government that it would rather die than divulge, even if this takes the referendum with it.
....
Inevitably, a confusing and sometimes misleading campaign will result in most of the Undecideds voting against the voice. Just as depressing is the softness underlying approval of the voice. About a third of the Yes vote is a present inclination rather than a firm vote.

Yet another problem is that, as much as the Prime Minister says this referendum does not belong to him or Labor, it does. The polls show support for the voice overwhelmingly comes from Labor voters and other progressives. Support from conservatives is miserably thin. A bipartisan referendum this is not. But the knockout blow comes from electors demanding exactly the sort of detail Labor just will not give.

Only half those supporting the voice think they have enough information to vote. Undecided voters overwhelmingly demand more information. This is a train wreck willing itself to happen. But Labor’s refusal to elaborate is unflinching. Its only theoretical attempt to justify its ban on detail is an absolute proposition that with constitutional amendments you put the principle in the Constitution and leave the undisclosed guts for future legislation. This is not fair dealing with the public.
...
What will be the name of the voice? Calma-Langton and Albanese sensibly go with “Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples voice”. Some Indigenous radicals want the divisive “First Nations voice”. Which is it? How does someone get on to the voice? Will you be elected or appointed as a representative by local bodies? Calma-Langton wisely avoids the politics of election. So is this the idea? Which local bodies will feed into the national voice and keep it firmly grounded in Indigenous people and problems, and how? What government action will be scrutinised by the voice? The proposed draft says “matters relating to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples”. But does this catch only specially connected matters or also general laws inevitably affecting Indigenous people?

Albanese apparently says general amendments to Medicare would not be caught. Is that right? Is it totally up to parliament when and whether it consults the voice, or are there some situations where parliament is obliged to consult? Calma-Langton says yes. What does the government think? Will the government stick with its draft amendment subjecting executive action to the consultation requirements of the voice? Rightly or wrongly, people will worry this could involve the judges. Is the worry worth the gain?
On the issue of the judges enforcing the voice, Calma-Langton wisely said they should not but did not offer a specific legal formula to prevent it. Some eminent lawyers do not think judicial intervention a realistic problem. But between genuine worry and conscious mischief, what (if anything) should or could be done about it? Again, Calma-Langton proposed that the voice would be kept away from loads of money and resources, so preventing the standard accusations of a new Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Commission. Is this the idea? Every public body needs assurance. The ultimate assurance is sacking someone who acts inappropriately. Calma-Langton says only the voice should be able to sack one of its members. Is this a problem?

Finally, the sternest criticism is it will make no difference on the ground to real problems such as family violence, poor educational outcomes and appalling health. Have we considered putting legislative priorities over the voice requiring it to focus on these policy failures?

None of these questions is meant negatively. Each is a genuine query that reasonably can be asked by strong supporters of the voice to understand the proposal and to answer ill-willed criticism.

Greg Craven is a constitutional lawyer and a former vice-chancellor of the Australian Catholic University. He is a member of the federal government’s constitutional experts group.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FlWYW84aUAIU7HZ?.jpg


Excellent contribution from Craven, who supported the (failed) republic referendum (and supported George Pell in the latter's successful quashing of sex-abuse charges).

So it's mainly the Left who want the voice...bless their souls...but they are forever deluded that we just need a government who can raise sufficient tax.
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AusGeoff
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #499 - Jan 3rd, 2023 at 6:37pm
 
John Smith wrote on Jan 2nd, 2023 at 12:02pm:
...but at no stage does anything proposed give them any legislative power

Part 1.1 of our Constitution:

"The legislative power of the Commonwealth shall be vested in a Federal Parliament".





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John Smith
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #500 - Jan 3rd, 2023 at 7:50pm
 
AusGeoff wrote on Jan 3rd, 2023 at 6:37pm:
John Smith wrote on Jan 2nd, 2023 at 12:02pm:
...but at no stage does anything proposed give them any legislative power


You were talking about 'the voice',
Part 1.1 of our Constitution:

"The legislative power of the Commonwealth shall be vested in a Federal Parliament".






Great, you can quote the constitution... now where is this legislation you allude to that gives aborigines legislative power?
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Lisa Jones
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #501 - Jan 3rd, 2023 at 7:58pm
 
John Smith wrote on Jan 3rd, 2023 at 6:12am:
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jan 2nd, 2023 at 3:24pm:
John Smith wrote on Jan 2nd, 2023 at 3:01pm:
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jan 2nd, 2023 at 2:47pm:
John Smith wrote on Jan 2nd, 2023 at 12:02pm:
AusGeoff wrote on Jan 2nd, 2023 at 11:43am:
Which raises the question:  should a relatively small Aboriginal population be
given any Constitutional legislative power specific to that group alone?



but at no stage does anything proposed give them any legislative power
Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy


If you're going to cry so much about something, at least TRY to understand what it is you're crying about


Not yet - but haven't you ever heard of 'mission creep' and 'definition creep'?

So you admit you and Geoff make crap up to feed your racism  .... that's a start I suppose


Go back to sleep - discussion is not your thing.


No, fantasy is not my thing. I prefer facts, something you tend to stear clear off


No fantasy and sleep are your things. And the dole. And gambling. That's it.
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If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free.

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Lisa Jones
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #502 - Jan 3rd, 2023 at 8:01pm
 
John Smith wrote on Jan 2nd, 2023 at 12:02pm:
AusGeoff wrote on Jan 2nd, 2023 at 11:43am:
Which raises the question:  should a relatively small Aboriginal population be
given any Constitutional legislative power specific to that group alone?



but at no stage does anything proposed give them any legislative power Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy


If you're going to cry so much about something, at least TRY to understand what it is you're crying about


That response clearly shows me you yourself AS AN ABO have no idea what is being proposed. Go back to sleep or gambling or getting drunk. You're good at those things. Understanding what is posted online isn't for you.
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John Smith
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #503 - Jan 3rd, 2023 at 8:04pm
 
Shut up Larry,  the adults are talking.

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Lisa Jones
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #504 - Jan 3rd, 2023 at 8:23pm
 
John Smith wrote on Jan 3rd, 2023 at 8:04pm:
Shut up Larry,  the adults are talking.



Frodo ... I see you still can't put a sentence together nor can you post anything on topic because you're too drunk and stoned. So all that's left is for you to smear your off topic troll driven rants all over OzPol. Oh and just a heads up: that's what got your Drunk buddy banned.
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #505 - Jan 6th, 2023 at 4:56pm
 
Architects of the Indigenous Voice are struggling to provide the transparency asked for. I’ll start you off:

“The Parliamentary Voice will be different from the dominant failed Indigenous voices that have been present for many decades in that it will ….”

Now fill in the blanks.
Anthony Dillon.
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #506 - Jan 6th, 2023 at 5:06pm
 
John Smith wrote on Jan 3rd, 2023 at 8:04pm:
Shut up Larry,  the adults are talking.


A deluded self definition if ever there was one.

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #507 - Jan 7th, 2023 at 1:36pm
 
I hope the ATSI leaders realise how toxic the phrases "always was, always will be Aboriginal land" and "sovereignty never ceded" will become the moment that they are publicised to the general public - and we can be certain that they will be.
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #508 - Jan 7th, 2023 at 4:36pm
 
Somers Trail wrote on Jan 7th, 2023 at 1:36pm:
I hope the ATSI leaders realise how toxic the phrases "always was, always will be Aboriginal land" and "sovereignty never ceded" will become the moment that they are publicised to the general public - and we can be certain that they will be.


Those two phrases give away the true intent of this nonsense.  I will beg to differ - every one of them who took the Queen's shilling at Centrelink or lodged a tax return or accepted study money etc, signed a form where the question was asked "Are you an Australian Citizen?" ..... in the affirmative.

They ceded their sovereignty and swore an oath to Australia by taking that money - or they should be charged with fraud.
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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #509 - Jan 8th, 2023 at 10:26am
 
Frank wrote on Jan 6th, 2023 at 4:56pm:
Architects of the Indigenous Voice are struggling to provide the transparency asked for. I’ll start you off:

“The Parliamentary Voice will be different from the dominant failed Indigenous voices that have been present for many decades in that it will ….”

Now fill in the blanks.
Anthony Dillon.


....."it will recommend a Job Guarantee".

Any takers?

Noel Pearson is on board.

Admittedly, payment for work is not part of the stone-age aboriginal hunter-gatherer culture, so Pearson must have in mind bringing aboriginals, but not their culture, into the 21st century.
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