Australian Politics Forum - The Aboriginal Voice referendum

Frank

Gold Member

Online

Australian Politics

Posts: 44785
Gender: male

Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #675 - Feb 6^th, 2023 at 10:31am

The Heartless Felon wrote on Feb 6^th, 2023 at 10:00am:

Frank wrote on Feb 6^th, 2023 at 9:05am:

A commenter:

These results are irrelevant to a referendum. This methodology might work for national elections, but stratifying voters by age, gender, education level, political affiliation etc etc is utterly irrelevant. The one thing that is relevant isn't disclosed - state or territory. A majority of voters in a majority of states. That's it. None of the preference whispering and unholy alliances of preferential voting, or any amount of industry fund super largesse channelled by the unions to Labor will matter. 32% of the vote won't count as a win in this poll. For once, actual democracy will prevail in Australia.

32% was Tennis Albo's yes vote last year.

Not relevant; a referendum needs a 'double majority' to get up. That's a majority of votes in a majority of states.

That is the point. 32% saying Yes to Tennis Albo was sufficient for an election victory but not for referendum victory where there will be no preference teading, only yes and no in a double majority.
The ACT, where I'd expect the yes would be highest, will not count in the 'majority of states' as it isnt one. Ditto the NT.

I guess the yes will be in the majority only in Vic and SA and not nationally or the other states.

Back to top

Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.

IP Logged

Grappler Truth Teller Feller

Gold Member

Online

Australian Politics

Posts: 83850
Proud pre-1850's NO Voter
Gender: male

Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #676 - Feb 6^th, 2023 at 7:58pm

What happened to the idea that if a person was ineligible to stand for Parliament - the same person should be ineligible to vote in a constitution changing referendum??

By what right does a person with divided loyalties inherit the right to alter our Constitution?

How many votes would a 'voice' have without those running dogs who have no idea, having not been here long enough to begin to understand the place, but essentially think they know best for this country? The faces at the demos show you who they are.... and they are faces not often seen in The Heartland...

I feel you are all missing something extremely important here... but then - you don't need to listen to me - you all know it all already - or you will in ten years time.... and it won't be nice...

Why is ANYONE not born here permitted to stand for elected office or even highly appointed office? WTF do they know about Australia? And why would we want to be like and live the way of people who want - or need - to get out of their own country which is clearly so bad?

In all that you note that I include Poms and Yanks and all the other losers who come here to take the fat dollars from our stupid politics... after failing in their bid for the big dollars 'over there'. If they're so good - why aren't they saving their own country instead of this one? BECAUSE THEY CAN'T!

Back to top

« Last Edit: Feb 6^th, 2023 at 8:04pm by Grappler Truth Teller Feller »

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

IP Logged

Grappler Truth Teller Feller

Gold Member

Online

Australian Politics

Posts: 83850
Proud pre-1850's NO Voter
Gender: male

Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #677 - Feb 6^th, 2023 at 8:01pm

Frank wrote on Feb 6^th, 2023 at 10:31am:

The Heartless Felon wrote on Feb 6^th, 2023 at 10:00am:

Frank wrote on Feb 6^th, 2023 at 9:05am:

A commenter:

These results are irrelevant to a referendum. This methodology might work for national elections, but stratifying voters by age, gender, education level, political affiliation etc etc is utterly irrelevant. The one thing that is relevant isn't disclosed - state or territory. A majority of voters in a majority of states. That's it. None of the preference whispering and unholy alliances of preferential voting, or any amount of industry fund super largesse channelled by the unions to Labor will matter. 32% of the vote won't count as a win in this poll. For once, actual democracy will prevail in Australia.

32% was Tennis Albo's yes vote last year.

Not relevant; a referendum needs a 'double majority' to get up. That's a majority of votes in a majority of states.

That is the point. 32% saying Yes to Tennis Albo was sufficient for an election victory but not for referendum victory where there will be no preference teading, only yes and no in a double majority.
The ACT, where I'd expect the yes would be highest, will not count in the 'majority of states' as it isnt one. Ditto the NT.

I guess the yes will be in the majority only in Vic and SA and not nationally or the other states.

Well - I live in a case-hardened Nationals seat - not my vote of preference - and it won't get up here. Not one souls says they support it - not even the local Abos, and they see how superficial and beneficial to a few it would be in reality - just handing to their Silverbacks with the big mouths and the big fists and that traditional standover a heap of cash for doing nothing, and often from any given district not even of the local tribes.

They KNOW how these things work in their land...

Back to top

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

IP Logged

Frank Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 44785 Gender:	Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum Reply #678 - Feb 6^th, 2023 at 11:23pm How do you say 'sovereignty' in any of the Aboriginal languages? You can't. The Stone Age predates the concept by several tens of thousands of years. How can Aborigines demand something they neved had a concept or a word for and do not have now in the way they organise themselves.
Back to top	Estragon: I can’t go on like this. Vladimir: That’s what you think. IP Logged

Grappler Truth Teller Feller

Gold Member

Online

Australian Politics

Posts: 83850
Proud pre-1850's NO Voter
Gender: male

Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #679 - Feb 6^th, 2023 at 11:29pm

Now don't go trying to introduce sense and reason into this argument... someone's feelings might get upset....

Wit'out schoolin' how would they know what it means? Just another buzzword for an aspiring demagogue with nothing else in the tank... she'sh twying t' appeal t' th' intellectual Abo around theshe daysh....

Back to top

« Last Edit: Feb 7^th, 2023 at 6:38am by Grappler Truth Teller Feller »

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

IP Logged

AusGeoff Gold Member Offline Sage of Gippsland Posts: 5999 Victoria Gender:	Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum Reply #680 - Feb 6^th, 2023 at 11:30pm Frank wrote on Feb 6^th, 2023 at 9:05am: ...32% was Tennis Albo's yes vote last year. I'm still laughing at this comedy gold.
Back to top	IP Logged

Grappler Truth Teller Feller Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 83850 Proud pre-1850's NO Voter Gender:	Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum Reply #681 - Feb 7^th, 2023 at 12:30am Yes - people continue to overlook that simple reality - a third of the Australian voting public didn't vote for the majors.... they didn't win - the other side lost .... and next time will be worse for them.... trust me on this.... Wait for this State election in NSW ...
Back to top	“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.” ― John Adams IP Logged

Frank

Gold Member

Online

Australian Politics

Posts: 44785
Gender: male

Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #682 - Feb 7^th, 2023 at 6:14am

AusGeoff wrote on Feb 6^th, 2023 at 11:30pm:

Frank wrote on Feb 6^th, 2023 at 9:05am:

...32% was Tennis Albo's yes vote last year.

I'm still laughing at this comedy gold.

Grin

The laugh of the demented.

Labor primary vote: 32.58%
Lib/Nat primary vote: 35.70%
Greens: 12.25%

Referendums have NO preferences or preference deals.

Back to top

Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.

IP Logged

Grappler Truth Teller Feller Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 83850 Proud pre-1850's NO Voter Gender:	Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum Reply #683 - Feb 7^th, 2023 at 8:49pm Novosti today said that Aborigines were lining up to get on the electoral roll... smarmy words were how wonderful it was - why weren't they being fined for refusing to vote? Now there might be a freebie or a thousand in it - here they all come...
Back to top	“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.” ― John Adams IP Logged

Grappler Truth Teller Feller Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 83850 Proud pre-1850's NO Voter Gender:	Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum Reply #684 - Feb 8^th, 2023 at 2:38am The Henry Ford Australia - you can have any colour as long as it's black... Well - that ain't gonna happen...
Back to top	“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.” ― John Adams IP Logged

Frank

Gold Member

Online

Australian Politics

Posts: 44785
Gender: male

Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #685 - Feb 9^th, 2023 at 7:51am

Voice or sovereignty: Lidia Thorpe has revealed the real Blak agenda

Anthony Albanese keeps saying the voice is no more than a “modest but meaningful” change about being polite to the First Australians. What he doesn’t say is that the voice is just one element in the demands of the Uluru Statement from the Heart, to which he and his government are fully committed. As recently as last weekend, at the Chifley Research Centre, he said: “I am proud to lead a government committed to the Uluru Statement from the Heart in full.”

The Uluru Statement expressly states “our Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander tribes were the first sovereign nations of the Australian continent” and that “this sovereignty … has never been ceded or extinguished”. According to the statement, its signatories don’t just want a voice enshrined in the Constitution; they want what they call a “Makarrata Commission to supervise a process of agreement-making between governments and First Nations and truth telling about history”.

So the argument between Lidia Thorpe and the Greens is about means, not ends; it’s about what comes first: voice or treaty. Thorpe says that accepting the voice prejudices the call for sovereignty. The rest of the Greens say (and the Albanese government never contradicts them) that the voice is just the first step towards the treaties that will eventually enshrine Aboriginal sovereignty and forever change the broader concept of Australian sovereignty for everyone else. Indeed, that’s exactly what Adam Bandt, the Greens leader, declared on Monday: that he’s supporting the voice precisely because he had received “guarantees” from the government “on sovereignty and funding to progress treaty and truth”.
https://www.theaustralian.com.au/commentary/voice-or-sovereignty-lidia-thorpe-has-revealed-the-real-blak-agenda/news-story/8d94c901377d56a5db1e832b1b308100

Back to top

Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.

IP Logged

Lisa Jones

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 39047
Sydney
Gender: female

Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #686 - Feb 9^th, 2023 at 8:22am

Frank wrote on Feb 7^th, 2023 at 6:14am:

AusGeoff wrote on Feb 6^th, 2023 at 11:30pm:

Frank wrote on Feb 6^th, 2023 at 9:05am:

...32% was Tennis Albo's yes vote last year.

I'm still laughing at this comedy gold.

Grin

The laugh of the demented.

Labor primary vote: 32.58%
Lib/Nat primary vote: 35.70%
Greens: 12.25%

Referendums have NO preferences or preference deals.

•After reading this topic it seems that most people don't know this. 🥺

Back to top

If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free.

HYPATIA - Greek philosopher, mathematician and astronomer (370 - 415)

IP Logged

thegreatdivide Gold Member Offline Australian Politics<br /> Posts: 12520 Gender:	Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum Reply #687 - Feb 10^th, 2023 at 12:33pm https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/feb/03/the-no-side-in-the-voice-r... The no side in the voice referendum has misread the mood among migrants Prof. Shireen Morris.
Back to top	IP Logged

thegreatdivide Gold Member Offline Australian Politics<br /> Posts: 12520 Gender:	Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum Reply #688 - Feb 10^th, 2023 at 12:33pm >
Back to top	IP Logged

thegreatdivide

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics<br
/>

Posts: 12520
Gender: male

Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #689 - Feb 10^th, 2023 at 12:45pm

Frank wrote on Feb 9^th, 2023 at 7:51am:

Voice or sovereignty: Lidia Thorpe has revealed the real Blak agenda

Anthony Albanese keeps saying the voice is no more than a “modest but meaningful” change about being polite to the First Australians. What he doesn’t say is that the voice is just one element in the demands of the Uluru Statement from the Heart, to which he and his government are fully committed.

As recently as last weekend, at the Chifley Research Centre, he said:[highlight] “I am proud to lead a government committed to the Uluru Statement from the Heart in full.”

Except.. what Albo is committed to, and what Parliament will legislate, are 2 different things.

Quote:

The Uluru Statement expressly states “our Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander tribes were the first sovereign nations of the Australian continent” and that “this sovereignty … has never been ceded or extinguished”.

Ah yes, the hoary issue of 'sovereignty' - as the individual perceives it!

Thorpe is a cultural extremist, as are those who identify capitalist (or socialist) ideology as the correct source of sovereignty.

Neither 'black sovereignty', nor 'national sovereignty', are compatible with healthy functional relations between the peoples of the world.

Just sayin',, while we watch Ukraine being pulverized in a proxy war between NATO and Russia.

Back to top

IP Logged

Poll
Question: Will the referendum be voted in?
* This poll has now closed *
No 42 (75.0%) Yes 14 (25.0%) Total votes: 56 « Last Modified by: Redmond Neck on: Feb 25^th, 2023 at 11:17am »