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Poll closed Poll
Question: Will the referendum be voted in?
*** This poll has now closed ***


No    
  42 (75.0%)
Yes    
  14 (25.0%)




Total votes: 56
« Last Modified by: Redmond Neck on: Feb 25th, 2023 at 11:17am »

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The Aboriginal Voice referendum (Read 100426 times)
thegreatdivide
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #90 - Oct 14th, 2022 at 12:07pm
 
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Oct 13th, 2022 at 9:57pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 13th, 2022 at 1:49pm:
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Oct 13th, 2022 at 11:28am:
Read a thing last night on the makeup of the genuine White Supremacist Nazi groups in the US - the ones with SS tattoos and such ..... pretty much the same applies as with the rabid Islamite.... poor background, poor education, criminal tendencies and record, bad upbringing and violence etc when young.....


No kidding...poverty is associated with low personal self-esteem, resulting in crime.

Quote:
It's not a phenomenon restricted to any social or colour group - it's mostly the illiterates who do all the killings in Islamia.... same happens with our homegrown Cheeses ....


No kidding.... 
Very wise of you to acknowledge simple truths for a change


Quote:
Lots of ground there for research and study....


Already been done, but government is incapable of dealing with poverty, given current neoliberal orthodoxy. It's easier to lock them up.


I take it you would prefer murderers and thieves and thugs and wife-bashers and child beaters to just go free?


No, absolutely not; and while in the NT my sympathies were with the police who were constantly obstructed by idiot lawyers.

My point is the CAUSES of the criminal society-wide dysfunction have to be dealt with head on, not simply by locking them up (and then being freed again on the intervention of idiot lawyers). 

Quote:
Always the same - rant and rave and ad hom and never once give a valid answer on HOW to solve the problems. 


I took it (wrongly) you had the smarts to understand my stance re "locking them up" (explained above); as to how to solve the problem ...well... you boof-head, I have explained that countless times.... still no comment on the NATSISS report confirming reduction of crime and alcoholism among CDEP participants?

Quote:
Best you leave it to those who have an idea. 


you certainly don't qualify...
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Grappler Truth Teller Feller
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #91 - Oct 14th, 2022 at 1:14pm
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 14th, 2022 at 12:07pm:
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Oct 13th, 2022 at 9:57pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 13th, 2022 at 1:49pm:
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Oct 13th, 2022 at 11:28am:
Read a thing last night on the makeup of the genuine White Supremacist Nazi groups in the US - the ones with SS tattoos and such ..... pretty much the same applies as with the rabid Islamite.... poor background, poor education, criminal tendencies and record, bad upbringing and violence etc when young.....


No kidding...poverty is associated with low personal self-esteem, resulting in crime.

Quote:
It's not a phenomenon restricted to any social or colour group - it's mostly the illiterates who do all the killings in Islamia.... same happens with our homegrown Cheeses ....


No kidding.... 
Very wise of you to acknowledge simple truths for a change


Quote:
Lots of ground there for research and study....


Already been done, but government is incapable of dealing with poverty, given current neoliberal orthodoxy. It's easier to lock them up.


I take it you would prefer murderers and thieves and thugs and wife-bashers and child beaters to just go free?


No, absolutely not; and while in the NT my sympathies were with the police who were constantly obstructed by idiot lawyers.

My point is the CAUSES of the criminal society-wide dysfunction have to be dealt with head on, not simply by locking them up (and then being freed again on the intervention of idiot lawyers). 

Quote:
Always the same - rant and rave and ad hom and never once give a valid answer on HOW to solve the problems. 


I took it (wrongly) you had the smarts to understand my stance re "locking them up" (explained above); as to how to solve the problem ...well... you boof-head, I have explained that countless times.... still no comment on the NATSISS report confirming reduction of crime and alcoholism among CDEP participants?

Quote:
Best you leave it to those who have an idea. 


you certainly don't qualify...


Then What Is Your Plan!?!  HOW do you propose to confront these problems head-on without locking up perpetrators?  Do you imagine that giving them a free pass will ensure they don't repeat that behaviour?
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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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thegreatdivide
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #92 - Oct 14th, 2022 at 4:08pm
 
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Oct 14th, 2022 at 1:14pm:
Then What Is Your Plan!?! 


Reintroduction of CDEP-type programs, proven to reduce crime and alcoholism.

Quote:
HOW do you propose to confront these problems head-on without locking up perpetrators? 


Both actions are required; ie,  incarceration as necessary, and job creation until everyone is securely employed, and community-wide dysfunction has been eliminated.

Quote:
Do you imagine that giving them a free pass will ensure they don't repeat that behaviour?


Of course not. Most whites manage to cope with long-term unemployment without tearing their communities apart (because their numbers are relatively small compared to the whole community); unemployed blacks often comprise a majority in their communities.   
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Grappler Truth Teller Feller
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #93 - Oct 16th, 2022 at 6:04pm
 
"Instead of being a transition to real work, CDEP is an obstacle to employment. Only around
5% of CDEP participants move to mainstream jobs.
CDEP payments are combined with other forms of income assistance such as Newstart
Allowance and Parenting Payment. A single mother with six children receiving CDEP for home
duties plus welfare can receive nearly $2,000 a fortnight. These payments create a ‘welfare pedestal’
which prevents participants from considering study, training, or work opportunities.
Participants are paid for doing housework, mowing their own lawns, attending funerals, and
for doing nothing at all. Consequently, Indigenous people regard CDEP pay contemptuously as
‘sit down’ money.
If CDEP is excluded from employment figures, after thirty years of the CDEP program,
the percentage of Indigenous people in ‘real’ employment in ghetto, fringe, and remote areas is
only 17%.
CDEP has hidden the crisis in Indigenous education. CDEP participants do not need to know
how to read and write, and CDEP training does not qualify them for mainstream jobs. So-called
vocational certificates are awarded to participants unable to read, write, or count.
Most Aborigines and Torres Strait Islanders, even in remote areas, are located within commuting
distance of work in retail, tourism, agriculture, and mining. They cannot access these jobs because
they are not literate or numerate, and lack post-school vocational training".

[url]http://www.cis.gov.au > uploads > 2015/07[/url]
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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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thegreatdivide
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #94 - Oct 16th, 2022 at 7:15pm
 
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Oct 16th, 2022 at 6:04pm:
"Instead of being a transition to real work, CDEP is an obstacle to employment. Only around
5% of CDEP participants move to mainstream jobs.


At last you read the CIS report on the CDEP...but can you see the problem?

"Instead of being a transition to real work, CDEP is an obstacle to employment"

The CIS are making the ideological mistake (based on neoliberal market ideology) of conflating "real work", and "employment" in the competitive neoliberal job market, rather than in a non-competitive government-supported job market. 

Quote:
CDEP payments are combined with other forms of income assistance such as Newstart
Allowance and Parenting Payment. A single mother with six children receiving CDEP for home
duties plus welfare can receive nearly $2,000 a fortnight. These payments create a ‘welfare pedestal’
which prevents participants from considering study, training, or work opportunities.
Participants are paid for doing housework, mowing their own lawns, attending funerals, and
for doing nothing at all. Consequently, Indigenous people regard CDEP pay contemptuously as
‘sit down’ money.
If CDEP is excluded from employment figures, after thirty years of the CDEP program,
the percentage of Indigenous people in ‘real’ employment in ghetto, fringe, and remote areas is
only 17%.
CDEP has hidden the crisis in Indigenous education. CDEP participants do not need to know
how to read and write, and CDEP training does not qualify them for mainstream jobs. So-called
vocational certificates are awarded to participants unable to read, write, or count.
Most Aborigines and Torres Strait Islanders, even in remote areas, are located within commuting
distance of work in retail, tourism, agriculture, and mining. They cannot access these jobs because
they are not literate or numerate, and lack post-school vocational training".

[url]http://www.cis.gov.au > uploads > 2015/07[/url]


That's a biased,  ideological view of the CDEP.

eg

"prevents participants from considering study,"

if a single mother has 6 kids, who is going to care for them, while she studies ...eg, home care?


"Participants are paid for doing housework, mowing their own lawns, attending funerals, and
for doing nothing at all"
.

The last 2 comment are gratuitous nonsense; but caring for homes is real continuous work.

"If CDEP is excluded from employment figures, after thirty years of the CDEP program,
the percentage of Indigenous people in ‘real’ employment in ghetto, fringe, and remote areas is
only 17%".


ghettos aren't known as a source of competitive neoliberal job-market jobs.

"CDEP has hidden the crisis in Indigenous education. CDEP participants do not need to know
how to read and write, and CDEP training does not qualify them for mainstream jobs


And so the crisis in Indigenous education must be addressed.  The CIS don't explain how.   

"So-called vocational certificates are awarded to participants unable to read, write, or count.
Most Aborigines and Torres Strait Islanders, even in remote areas, are located within commuting
distance of work in retail, tourism, agriculture, and mining. They cannot access these jobs because
they are not literate or numerate, and lack post-school vocational training".
 

..and these CIS frauds don't explain who is going to pay for literacy and numeracy classes, and  who is going to pay travel expenses to mine sites, etc.

and the fact that white workers will get the jobs in  retail, tourism, agriculture, so long as literacy and numeracy remain low among blacks.

You will note point 10 in the CIS report  which acknowledges the NATSISS stats showing reduction in alcoholism and crime.

The fact remains, we have to decrease social dysfunction in the communities, by enabling people to do something - anything - useful, during a transition to more functional communities, before we can proceed with numeracy and literacy classes which require functional environments. 

Otherwise the torment will continue.




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« Last Edit: Oct 16th, 2022 at 7:29pm by thegreatdivide »  
 
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Grappler Truth Teller Feller
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #95 - Oct 16th, 2022 at 9:12pm
 
                                                                                                                                                  .
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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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thegreatdivide
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #96 - Oct 17th, 2022 at 10:12am
 
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Oct 16th, 2022 at 9:12pm:
                                                                                                                                    


Yes...the voice, dead and buried (or possibly never even put to a referendum).

And the ongoing black social torment and disgrace in Oz?

It ain't going anywhere....


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« Last Edit: Oct 17th, 2022 at 12:54pm by thegreatdivide »  
 
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Captain Nemo
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #97 - Oct 17th, 2022 at 12:35pm
 
I reckon "the Voice" will pass the referendum, the sheeple will follow their woke masters.
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The 2025 election could be a shocker.
WWW  
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Grappler Truth Teller Feller
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #98 - Oct 17th, 2022 at 9:28pm
 
Captain Nemo wrote on Oct 17th, 2022 at 12:35pm:
I reckon "the Voice" will pass the referendum, the sheeple will follow their woke masters.


Too many outlanders here now who have no real idea... the entire purpose of the coat of many colours immigration policies pursued by all governments here for years has been to reduce the power of the common Australian by introducing groups who are antithetical or even hostile to our way of life and government and/or have no idea how our government works.

I reckon it will fail - then Albo is straddling that four foot high anti-Musso bollard with glass set into the top..... he can either give it up or legislate this bastard concept into existence over the will of the people..... and he would probably, knowing how dumb the public can be - get away with it.

The maddest idea to ever come out of any body 'advising' government here yet... it WILL lead to civil war inevitably and eventually - and people will die.

ransom?  You wanna try that again you lying little pr1ck?  Do it and you won't need to go to the gender re-assignment surgery clinic...

You no longer have the loser FTLW flying pre-mission ground strike for you... you're coming into a hot LZ, son, with no support other than Kat, who is receiving the shelter of White Knight general refusal to shoot the sh1t out of a woman..... the conditions in which you could basely libel and slander people are gone.....
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« Last Edit: Oct 17th, 2022 at 9:35pm by Grappler Truth Teller Feller »  

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Grappler Truth Teller Feller
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #99 - Oct 18th, 2022 at 8:01pm
 
Insight at the moment about Aboriginal Identity... mostly Aborigines doing the discussing and they are not generally happy...  good to watch - - $40Bn industry of 27000 groups etc and one Elder said that people are often handsomely remunerated etc for running those, and there was serious concern about interlopers coming in and taking over.

Camera keeps flitting over Bruce Pascoe sitting at the back.....
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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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thegreatdivide
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #100 - Oct 19th, 2022 at 10:40am
 
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Oct 18th, 2022 at 8:01pm:
Insight at the moment about Aboriginal Identity... mostly Aborigines doing the discussing and they are not generally happy...  good to watch - - $40Bn industry of 27000 groups etc and one Elder said that people are often handsomely remunerated etc for running those, and there was serious concern about interlopers coming in and taking over.

Camera keeps flitting over Bruce Pascoe sitting at the back.....


Yes, the whole madness resulting from elevation of 'culture' above collective wellbeing.

"It's the economy, stupid".

Make the economy work for everyone, and the 'culture' madness goes away, as the gap closes.
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Frank
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #101 - Oct 22nd, 2022 at 2:38pm
 
Captain Nemo wrote on Oct 10th, 2022 at 12:29pm:
Perhaps this should be the new Welcome to Country?  Wink

@nogulagsagain

I acknowledge and pay my respects to the British and European elders past, present and emerging, who introduced civil society and prosperity to Australia.



Not only but also:



Non-European -  blacks, Asians, Arabs - who live in Europe should be asked to make land declarations. Fair's fair.

“We stand on the lands of the  Caucasian Celtic peoples, whose ancestors have resided here since Time Immemorial. We pay our respect to their elders, past, present and future. Sovereignty has never been ceded."

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Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.
 
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MeisterEckhart
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #102 - Oct 22nd, 2022 at 2:41pm
 
Frank wrote on Oct 22nd, 2022 at 2:38pm:
Captain Nemo wrote on Oct 10th, 2022 at 12:29pm:
Perhaps this should be the new Welcome to Country?  Wink

@nogulagsagain

I acknowledge and pay my respects to the British and European elders past, present and emerging, who introduced civil society and prosperity to Australia.



Not only but also:



Non-European -  blacks, Asians, Arabs - who live in Europe should be asked to make land declarations. Fair's fair.

“We stand on the lands of the  Caucasian Celtic peoples, whose ancestors have resided here since Time Immemorial. We pay our respect to their elders, past, present and future. Sovereignty has never been ceded."


Recited in Welsh / Cornish / Gaelic?
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Grappler Truth Teller Feller
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #103 - Oct 22nd, 2022 at 6:21pm
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 19th, 2022 at 10:40am:
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Oct 18th, 2022 at 8:01pm:
Insight at the moment about Aboriginal Identity... mostly Aborigines doing the discussing and they are not generally happy...  good to watch - - $40Bn industry of 27000 groups etc and one Elder said that people are often handsomely remunerated etc for running those, and there was serious concern about interlopers coming in and taking over.

Camera keeps flitting over Bruce Pascoe sitting at the back.....


Yes, the whole madness resulting from elevation of 'culture' above collective wellbeing.

"It's the economy, stupid".

Make the economy work for everyone, and the 'culture' madness goes away, as the gap closes.



Well - that's not what happened when they made the economy work for women ...... why would you expect this to be any different?

All it does is reinforce the ideology of culture...pushing women forward gave them unheard of privilege in return for which they now feel they are 'better' and actually Entitled to the same pushing forward forever..

You cannot solve a problem that way.
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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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thegreatdivide
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #104 - Oct 23rd, 2022 at 10:42am
 
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Oct 22nd, 2022 at 6:21pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 19th, 2022 at 10:40am:
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Oct 18th, 2022 at 8:01pm:
Insight at the moment about Aboriginal Identity... mostly Aborigines doing the discussing and they are not generally happy...  good to watch - - $40Bn industry of 27000 groups etc and one Elder said that people are often handsomely remunerated etc for running those, and there was serious concern about interlopers coming in and taking over.

Camera keeps flitting over Bruce Pascoe sitting at the back.....


Yes, the whole madness resulting from elevation of 'culture' above collective wellbeing.

"It's the economy, stupid".

Make the economy work for everyone, and the 'culture' madness goes away, as the gap closes.



Well - that's not what happened when they made the economy work for women ...... why would you expect this to be any different?


See how confused you are, they didn't "make the economy work for women"; the economy has only ever worked for rich people. That's the problem.

Quote:
All it does is reinforce the ideology of culture...pushing women forward gave them unheard of privilege in return for which they now feel they are 'better' and actually Entitled to the same pushing forward forever..


You are correct in that the culture wars (of whatever stripe, gender, race)  are a diversion from the real task at hand, which is making the economy work for all.

The rich are laughing all the way to the bank while the rest of us engage in this divisive culture nonsense.

Culture is only good for funny dancing and nice costumes.

Quote:
You cannot solve a problem that way.


Indeed.
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