Australian Politics Forum - The Aboriginal Voice referendum

thegreatdivide

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #975 - Feb 28^th, 2023 at 10:14am

Frank wrote on Feb 28^th, 2023 at 8:19am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 27^th, 2023 at 7:34pm:

Frank wrote on Feb 27^th, 2023 at 12:49pm:

Like the Left generally, they want to shut up anyone who doesnt toe their propaganda line.

This from the guy who reckons "(a minimum) above poverty employment for all 'sounds like slavery' " - and then referenced the Soviets.

Classic TINA fallacy.

Selectively quoting, mon petit perroquet on uppers. What I said:

That sounds like slavery or serfdom.

That's right, that's what you said: a JG sounds like slavery or serfdom.

Whereas a JG is guaranteed above-poverty (at a minimum) participation in the economy, for all.

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Or what the Soviers had, 'full employment' - no unemployment benefit plus strong anti parasite laws, including jail and forced labour.

Forced labour is not required in a functional economy.

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In all these cases responsibility for individual was assumed by the slave owner, the landlord or the state.

Whatever; but shared responsibility - guaranteed work for all who want it (the responsibility of the state), as well as the responsibility of the individual to contribute to the natioon's economy - both are obviously necessary.

(People who can't work will need to be fed and housed, paid for by the state. No money for recipients of this food and housing).

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Imagine if Australia also abolished the dole and introduced anti-parasite laws against people out of work for more than 4 weeks.

That's what a JG is: the offer of an above poverty job for anyone who wants a job.

Your assumptions re "parasites" are of course Conservative fiction, based on the falsehood that anyone who wants a job can get one.

But the NAIRU (in the current neoclassical economy), by definition, reveals that Conservative lie.

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #976 - Feb 28^th, 2023 at 7:31pm

Is a goner..................

All participate in the economy anyway... it's a matter of how much .... same as 'paying taxes' - everybody pays taxes ........over to you.

So - when you set your viable wage level.... how do you keep it there?

Remember you are talking to the bloke who came up with the concept of a permanently wage-paid unemployed group, selected according to criteria, to keep the economy going - in 1982..... literally people paid a wage to be unemployed .... if politicians and economists demand a permanent level of unemployment, that core of unemployed should be carefully chosen and paid sufficient to live reasonably.... keep the economy alive.

I've outlined for yez years ago how those on limited incomes are a mainstay - social security recipients are guaranteed to put 100% back into the economy thus providing a firm baseline from which government can function knowing the figures, at least partially.

EVERY cent of social security, unless ambushed into some rich person's coffers and spirited offshore or into a local tax haven - goes back to the economy in taxes very quickly. So it is clear that it is the tax havens that need looking at very closely..... not social security.

Tax havens are where your real dole bludgers are and your budget black holes that grow larger all the time...

So slow you people these days.... where you bin - I bin long ago....

I don't attend class - attending class stifles true creativity... John Nash.

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« Last Edit: Feb 28^th, 2023 at 7:40pm by Grappler Truth Teller Feller »

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Frank Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 44744 Gender:	Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum Reply #977 - Feb 28^th, 2023 at 9:02pm Thorpe IS the Voice.
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thegreatdivide

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #978 - Feb 28^th, 2023 at 9:56pm

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Feb 28^th, 2023 at 7:31pm:

Is a goner..................

All participate in the economy anyway... it's a matter of how much .... same as 'paying taxes' - everybody pays taxes ........over to you.

Wrong of course; 'sit-down money', by definition, is not 'participation in the economy'; and the tax-free threshold in Oz is c.$18,000.

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So - when you set your viable wage level.... how do you keep it there?

The JG wage is the minimum legal wage in the economy.

Quote:

Remember you are talking to the bloke who came up with the concept of a permanently wage-paid unemployed group, selected according to criteria, to keep the economy going - in 1982..... literally people paid a wage to be unemployed .... if politicians and economists demand a permanent level of unemployment, that core of unemployed should be carefully chosen and paid sufficient to live reasonably.... keep the economy alive.

Instead of your "carefully chosen pool of unemployed" who are granted the gift of "sufficient money to live reasonably"; the JG's employed buffer pool is a variable pool of workers, the number of whom varies according to the condition of the private sector economy.

Much more in line with 'mutual obligation', 'personal responsibility' and 'incentive' concepts; and "the best form of welfare is a job".....

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I've outlined for yez years ago how those on limited incomes are a mainstay - social security recipients are guaranteed to put 100% back into the economy thus providing a firm baseline from which government can function knowing the figures, at least partially.

And I'm showing you your errors; poverty - as opposed to your supposed 'sufficiency for reasonable living' - and unemployment, are demoralizing and associated with crime, drug addiction and social dysfunction.

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EVERY cent of social security, unless ambushed into some rich person's coffers and spirited offshore or into a local tax haven - goes back to the economy in taxes very quickly. So it is clear that it is the tax havens that need looking at very closely..... not social security.

Er...'social security' (a misnomer) is below the tax-free threshold.

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Tax havens are where your real dole bludgers are and your budget black holes that grow larger all the time...

Yet the Panama papers revealed some very wealthy people among the tax dodgers, as opposed to 'dole bludgers'; and notice how your terminology has changed from 'social welfare' to 'dole bludger'....

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So slow you people these days.... where you bin - I bin long ago....

I don't attend class - attending class stifles true creativity... John Nash.

Most of us have to learn from the masters in their field.

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 95307 Gender:	Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum Reply #979 - Feb 28^th, 2023 at 10:46pm Frank wrote on Feb 28^th, 2023 at 9:02pm: Thorpe IS the Voice. No, dear, that's Mette. If she ever has a referendum in Denmark, you'll be free to caste your vote. I hope you're okay if we comment. Look, we may have to move in and tell you how to look after your Boongs. Superior culture, innit.
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Grappler Truth Teller Feller Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 83842 Proud pre-1850's NO Voter Gender:	Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum Reply #980 - Mar 1^st, 2023 at 3:28am .... is a shot cheer.....
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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #981 - Mar 1^st, 2023 at 3:33am

thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 28^th, 2023 at 9:56pm:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Feb 28^th, 2023 at 7:31pm:

Is a goner..................

All participate in the economy anyway... it's a matter of how much .... same as 'paying taxes' - everybody pays taxes ........over to you.

Wrong of course; 'sit-down money', by definition, is not 'participation in the economy'; and the tax-free threshold in Oz is c.$18,000.

So no tax on the Unemployeds food, rent fuel clothing and such? You're down again, mister. Good policy though... ALL money enables participation in the economy. You, and your teachers, are so far behind.

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So - when you set your viable wage level.... how do you keep it there?

The JG wage is the minimum legal wage in the economy.

What if there is no work available? Pay them more per hour than the going rate for their work?

Quote:

Remember you are talking to the bloke who came up with the concept of a permanently wage-paid unemployed group, selected according to criteria, to keep the economy going - in 1982..... literally people paid a wage to be unemployed .... if politicians and economists demand a permanent level of unemployment, that core of unemployed should be carefully chosen and paid sufficient to live reasonably.... keep the economy alive.

Instead of your "carefully chosen pool of unemployed" who are granted the gift of "sufficient money to live reasonably"; the JG's employed buffer pool is a variable pool of workers, the number of whom varies according to the condition of the private sector economy.

Easier for order and simplicity to have a core of permanents and a few casuals.

Much more in line with 'mutual obligation', 'personal responsibility' and 'incentive' concepts; and "the best form of welfare is a job".....

Quote:

I've outlined for yez years ago how those on limited incomes are a mainstay - social security recipients are guaranteed to put 100% back into the economy thus providing a firm baseline from which government can function knowing the figures, at least partially.

And I'm showing you your errors; poverty - as opposed to your supposed 'sufficiency for reasonable living' - and unemployment, are demoralizing and associated with crime, drug addiction and social dysfunction.

Nobody argues that - only you. It is your solutions that do not work.

Quote:

EVERY cent of social security, unless ambushed into some rich person's coffers and spirited offshore or into a local tax haven - goes back to the economy in taxes very quickly. So it is clear that it is the tax havens that need looking at very closely..... not social security.

Er...'social security' (a misnomer) is below the tax-free threshold.

Well it sure ain't welfare, sonny, and it falls under the social security budget.

Quote:

Tax havens are where your real dole bludgers are and your budget black holes that grow larger all the time...

Yet the Panama papers revealed some very wealthy people among the tax dodgers, as opposed to 'dole bludgers'; and notice how your terminology has changed from 'social welfare' to 'dole bludger'....

Along with the context to show where the REAL bludgers are, with which you apparently agree but choose to argue about. DUH!

Quote:

So slow you people these days.... where you bin - I bin long ago....

I don't attend class - attending class stifles true creativity... John Nash.

Most of us have to learn from the masters in their field.

Who have yet to get a single economic thing right so that it works for all. Start again then and learn properly. Trust the REAL experts.

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #982 - Mar 1^st, 2023 at 3:39am

Now divide and other children - let's get back to the failing Aboriginal voice.

Now the concern is that giving this 'voice' means ceding Australia to Aborigines.... imperialism by stealth just like the 'welcome to country' BS.... you only welcome outsiders, not residents... guests are only here at the whim of the owner .... I guess you fools missed that. Who'd 've ever thunk that, eh?

What say ye, turkeys? Anything happening north of your necks today? Apart from moving tongues.......

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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Boris Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 3977 Gender:	Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum Reply #983 - Mar 1^st, 2023 at 6:30am They rape, murder and eat babies
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Gnads Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 29297 Gender:	Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum Reply #984 - Mar 1^st, 2023 at 7:53am Frank wrote on Feb 28^th, 2023 at 7:09am: Another bewdy
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Grappler Truth Teller Feller Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 83842 Proud pre-1850's NO Voter Gender:	Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum Reply #985 - Mar 1^st, 2023 at 9:17am Pauline Hanson Rum - $100 or $150 for the special one. Great fund raiser.
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thegreatdivide

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #986 - Mar 1^st, 2023 at 10:50am

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Mar 1^st, 2023 at 3:33am:

All participate in the economy anyway... it's a matter of how much .... same as 'paying taxes' - everybody pays taxes ........over to you.

Sitting around in a drunken stupor amidst broken grog bottles isn't 'participating in the economy'', though it does increase the GDP - which just shows the limitations of GDP as a measure of well-being.

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So no tax on the Unemployeds food, rent fuel clothing and such? You're down again, mister. Good policy though... ALL money enables participation in the economy. You, and your teachers, are so far behind.

The GST is paid, regardless of whether someone is earning an above tax-threshold wage, or subsisting on the dole. You lose, again.

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What if there is no work available? Pay them more per hour than the going rate for their work?

There is always useful work to be done in communities; if the private sector can't supply useful work for all, the public sector can (as employer of last resort ELR), at the minimum legal wage (determined by the government).

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Easier for order and simplicity to have a core of permanents and a few casuals.

Ie, easier for a government to 'nominate' who will be "chosen" to be permanently unemployed...you're kidding.

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Nobody argues that - only you. It is your solutions that do not work.

All social scientists know unemployment is demoralizing.

quick google:

"Unemployment causes stress, which ultimately has long-term physiological health effects and can have negative consequences for people's mental health, including depression, anxiety and lower self-esteem.16 Apr 2021

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Well it sure ain't welfare, sonny, and it falls under the social security budget.

'Welfare', sit-down money, the dole, social security...whatever you call it, it's a fraud.

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Along with the context to show where the REAL bludgers are, with which you apparently agree but choose to argue about. DUH!

My argument is consistent: 'the best form of welfare is a job'.....(to borrow the Conservative mantra).

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Who have yet to get a single economic thing right so that it works for all. Start again then and learn properly. Trust the REAL experts.

No, the old certainties die hard; the fact is there are sufficient resources in the world to employ, feed, house and transport everyone.

The current neoclassical orthodoxy based on old notions of scarcity is obsolete.

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #987 - Mar 1^st, 2023 at 11:03am

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 1^st, 2023 at 10:50am: