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Poll closed Poll
Question: Will the referendum be voted in?
*** This poll has now closed ***


No    
  42 (75.0%)
Yes    
  14 (25.0%)




Total votes: 56
« Last Modified by: Redmond Neck on: Feb 25th, 2023 at 11:17am »

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The Aboriginal Voice referendum (Read 91459 times)
thegreatdivide
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #990 - Mar 1st, 2023 at 12:24pm
 
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Mar 1st, 2023 at 12:05pm:
Look - you proved you don't even know the difference between tax and income tax


How did I prove that?

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... and somehow you figure that people who don't pay income tax are not participating in the economy.


They aren't, they are passive bystanders, rather than contributers in useful work. 

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Where did you do your school level economics again?


Not school level; rather Kelton, Wray, Minsky, James Galbraith, Harvey, et al.  all doctorate level economists.

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Try this - at what level of spending does a person begin to participate in the economy..... from zero?  Say - $500 a week?  $1000 a week?


Not according to level of spending, but when he engages in useful work.

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Clearly you don't know the difference between the workforce and the economy...... yet you carry on as if you know it all.... you have got to be a kid.


Clearly you are blinded by outdated neoclassical notions.

Workforce means those gainfully employed in useful/ valuable work.
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Brian Ross
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #991 - Mar 1st, 2023 at 7:54pm
 
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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour.  Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe?  Tsk, tsk, tsk...   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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Grappler Truth Teller Feller
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #992 - Mar 1st, 2023 at 8:46pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on Mar 1st, 2023 at 7:54pm:


Fair enough.  I think all votes should be conscience votes.  as a party member can't they vote in a referendum any way they choose as an individual?  This isn't a vote in the house.... yet...
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Frank
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #993 - Mar 2nd, 2023 at 8:52am
 
"Wyatt says Mr Dutton could be on the wrong side of history when it comes to voting for an Indigenous Voice to Parliament."

More deception, dissembling and intimidation.



Some truths:

The No campaign: the Voice is no panacea
Former ALP president-turned-Liberal candidate Warren Mundine is spearheading the No campaign as the president of Recognise a Better Way.

Central to his campaign is recognition of "prior occupation of Aboriginal people in a preamble to the constitution" – but it does not support an Indigenous Voice to Parliament.

"I have not been convinced by one person that [the Voice] is the panacea that's going to do everything."

Mr Mundine has been in Western Australia in recent weeks ramping up support for the No campaign.

"We're just doing a community campaign, we don't have the multi millions of dollars that the Yes campaign has, or corporations around this country supporting us," he said.

The campaign is supported by 37,000 volunteers.

"This thing about Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people not having a voice is beyond me," Mr Mundine told The Drum.  "There have always been voices to parliament."

Mr Mundine himself was a member of the National Indigenous Council under John Howard, and chair of the Prime Minister's Indigenous Advisory Council under Tony Abbott and Malcolm Turnbull.

"We're going to spend a lot of money on this, and we're going to end up having this huge bureaucracy operating, and it's not going to make one iota of difference for people on the ground," he said.

"The biggest 'closing the gap' is not between Indigenous and non-Indigenous, it's between Indigenous in the cities and Indigenous in the regions.  These things are not going to be resolved by people sitting around parliament."
Same ABC link

Video:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/programs/the-drum/2023-03-01/the-drum-wednesday-1-ma...
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Grappler Truth Teller Feller
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #994 - Mar 2nd, 2023 at 9:16am
 
Well - this voice idea is on the wrong side of history that is supposedly moving towards a genuine equality of all etc... but, of course, will never do so given human nature and its intrinsic greed and frankly absurd idea of having to exert control over others.

Like all the other 'brotherhood of man' ideas going around, it will be coming down in flames at some time in the not too distant future.  Human nature dictates it.

Of course Wyatt would say that....
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thegreatdivide
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #995 - Mar 2nd, 2023 at 10:46am
 
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Mar 2nd, 2023 at 9:16am:
Well - this voice idea is on the wrong side of history that is supposedly moving towards a genuine equality of all etc...[


I can agree with you on that point, but the voice - yes or no - is hardly the defining factor re "genuine equality and the right side of history" - which indeed demands eradication of systemic poverty.

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but, of course, will never do so given human nature and its intrinsic greed and frankly absurd idea of having to exert control over others.


Once upon a time we were told to 'populate or perish'; the current circumstances demands eradication of poverty and war, or perish...

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Like all the other 'brotherhood of man' ideas going around, it will be coming down in flames at some time in the not too distant future.  Human nature dictates it.


Lovely ideology there: either (fake) "freedom" - as determined by the individual claiming it - or war to settle the matter.

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Of course Wyatt would say that....


....after all, law to eradicate poverty and war is for ...non-humans....
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Frank
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #996 - Mar 4th, 2023 at 4:32pm
 
Contrary to the argument by voice proponents that Aboriginal Australia has been “voiceless” and needs an overarching entity to hold parliament and executive government to account, Pearson himself is among those who have had a seat at the table for decades.


He has been a key player in the Indigenous policy space since the early 1990s. Through the establishment of the Cape York Institute for Policy and Leadership during 2011 to 2016 alone his efforts have attracted more than $47m in government funding for the design and implementation programs to advance communities.

Pearson has had the ear of many prime ministers of both Labor and Coalition governments over the decades. His has been a prominent voice to parliament, despite never taking the opportunity to run for a seat himself.

Another proponent of the voice, Pat Turner, who is currently the head of the Coalition of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Peak Organisations – a body many would consider is a voice to parliament – has also in her own words, “held senior leadership positions in government, business and academia for more than 40 years, and had extensive experience in Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander affairs”.

In fact, over those decades her roles included deputy secretary of the Department for Aboriginal Affairs, deputy secretary for Prime Minister and Cabinet which oversaw the Council for Aboriginal Reconciliation; chief executive of the now dismantled Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Commission for four years, senior managerial positions in Centrelink and the Department of Health, and chief executive of the National Aboriginal Community Controlled Health Organisations body since 2016. As head of NACCHO, Turner has been responsible for the delivery of services to the tune of more than $27m in grants funding.

In more recent times, Turner’s influence on federal parliament has ensured a redesigned Closing the Gap process. During the 2023 anniversary of the apology, she presented a fresh set of plans. Addressing the entire senior executive of the Albanese government she exclaimed, “we know that outcomes for our people can be much better when central agencies are playing a leadership role”. With her influence, Turner has convinced the Albanese government to increase investment toward Closing the Gap by $242m.

She has been a vocal advocate for more financial investment into Aboriginal disadvantage despite the more than $30bn investment made year in, year out, regardless of who’s in power.

...
These are examples of merely two influential voices to parliament, but there are many more. Within parliament itself, four very senior Aboriginal parliamentarians – minister Linda Burney, senator Malarndirri McCarthy, senator Patrick Dodson and member for Lingiari Marion Scrymgour – now argue a constitutional amendment is the answer to Closing the Gap.

What does it tell us that these four members of parliament who have 65 years of collective experience within state, territory and federal parliaments both in opposition and in government as Indigenous Australians now argue a voice to parliament is the only answer?

If we want to make a difference in the lives of our most marginalised, we have to begin by putting a stop to treating Aboriginal Australians differently.

The structures that have existed and failed, despite the billions of dollars of investment, are systems that have been built on the ideological premise that Aboriginal Australians are to be treated differently and separately and are inherently disadvantaged as a result of racial heritage.

The abovementioned powerful voices are clear evidence that any human who can gain an education can take advantage of what our nation has to offer and this is not a determination of race. None of these leaders required a voice to parliament to succeed.

I will continue to argue that we need to forensically audit the current systems that have been funded to “close the gap” to determine the successes and discard the failures. As long as an industry exists to “close the gap”, the gap will not close.

Constitutionally enshrining the very voices that exist within the structures that perpetuate the ideological notion that Aboriginal Australians are inherently disadvantaged, is constitutionally enshrining failure.


Jacinta Nampijinpa Price is a Country Liberal Party senator for the Northern Territory.
https://www.theaustralian.com.au/inquirer/indigenous-voice-risks-perpetuating-a-...

She is spot on. The Voice would cement into the Constitution precisely those who have created and are maintaining the gap. It is in tg heir interest.

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #997 - Mar 5th, 2023 at 12:09pm
 
Once again - it's all about getting on the gravy train with huge salaries and perks for life to a few of them without having to do any work.  The chance to build an empire in then public service mold and simply enjoy its being entrenched in the constitution and never removed.

Those promoting this clearly see themselves as holding all those top seats, and receiving their super salaries and perks for two hours work a week.

An absolute waste of money, since they will, as usual, do nothing to resolve the problems.

Only a total idiot would vote for such a foolishness.
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thegreatdivide
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #998 - Mar 6th, 2023 at 11:51am
 
Frank wrote on Mar 4th, 2023 at 4:32pm:
(Pearson) has been a key player in the Indigenous policy space since the early 1990s. Through the establishment of the Cape York Institute for Policy and Leadership during 2011 to 2016 alone his efforts have attracted more than $47m in government funding for the design and implementation programs to advance communities.


Note: it's only in the last few years Pearson has become aware of the JG concept, which he now advocates.

Quote:
With her influence, (Pat) Turner has convinced the Albanese government to increase investment toward Closing the Gap by $242m.

She has been a vocal advocate for more financial investment into Aboriginal disadvantage despite the more than $30bn investment made year in, year out, regardless of who’s in power.


$30 billion?

quick google);

"Taking into account the $300 million allocated for Indigenous housing and the $177 million underspend in 2021–22, the October 2022–23 Budget provides $1.1 billion more than the March 2022–23 Budget for Indigenous Australians-related matters, averaging $4.2 billion per year over the forward estimates.

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If we want to make a difference in the lives of our most marginalised, we have to begin by putting a stop to treating Aboriginal Australians differently.


Indeed, and that means getting unemployment levels among blacks down to the same level as non-blacks.

"The best form of welfare is a job"....who said that? 

Quote:
The structures that have existed and failed, despite the billions of dollars of investment, are systems that have been built on the ideological premise that Aboriginal Australians are to be treated differently and separately and are inherently disadvantaged as a result of racial heritage.


Correct, but the problem of systemic unemployment - among the most disadvantaged groups -  is not being faced by the nation. 

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The abovementioned powerful voices are clear evidence that any human who can gain an education can take advantage of what our nation has to offer and this is not a determination of race. None of these leaders required a voice to parliament to succeed.


That's the Conservative argument that the disadvantaged are responsible for their disadvantage.

Quote:
I will continue to argue that we need to forensically audit the current systems that have been funded to “close the gap” to determine the successes and discard the failures. As long as an industry exists to “close the gap”, the gap will not close.


Correct: and such an audit will reveal the necessity for a JG, rather than continuation of the poverty industry.

Ie,  we need a JG, not an "industry to close the gap".

Quote:
Constitutionally enshrining the very voices that exist within the structures that perpetuate the ideological notion that Aboriginal Australians are inherently disadvantaged, is constitutionally enshrining failure: Jacinta Price


A confused statement: some whites are also positing black disadvantage; and some blacks ARE disadvantaged by race - hence the gap.

Price's mistake is to claim disadvantage is solely a personal failing, which is wrong; it is also an economic  systemic failure most badly affecting the most disadvantaged.

Quote:
She is spot on. The Voice would cement into the Constitution precisely those who have created and are maintaining the gap. It is in their interest.


..ie, in the interest of the poverty industry, and the dysfunctional neoliberal economic system which Price supports.
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #999 - Mar 6th, 2023 at 4:54pm
 
Q.  When is a referendum not a referendum?

A.  When you are being offered the choice of Yes or Yes by your government.

It's a clear sign of the stupidity and narrow-mindedness and selfish, despotic thinking of those who so desperately want to run our government and get at the purse strings.
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #1000 - Mar 6th, 2023 at 5:16pm
 
No problem - all those remotees?  Put 'em on the trains to where the Arbeit will Macht them Frei... that'll go down a treat ....

Nah - nah - just de-centralise all the comfy jobs to them eh?
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Frank
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #1001 - Mar 6th, 2023 at 5:24pm
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 6th, 2023 at 11:51am:
Price's mistake is to claim disadvantage is solely a personal failing, which is wrong; it is also an economic  systemic failure most badly affecting the most disadvantaged.



Where did she claim that, parrot?

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #1002 - Mar 6th, 2023 at 6:04pm
 
Frank wrote on Mar 6th, 2023 at 5:24pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 6th, 2023 at 11:51am:
Price's mistake is to claim disadvantage is solely a personal failing, which is wrong; it is also an economic  systemic failure most badly affecting the most disadvantaged.



Where did she claim that, parrot?



He assumes that when anyone says they must take personal responsibility - somehow that is a new form of 'blaming the victim' - when not a single soul on this planet thinks that way.  dividie simply cannot or refuses to see that citing one part of the problem is just that - citing one part of the problem.... yet somehow he imagines that government imposition on the mega-scale will automatically fix everything without the willing co-operation of the ... inmates of their own prisons.

You will NEVER resolve any issue for anyone without that person actively participating - and the conscript concept always has but one result - poor performance and ultimate failure.

Anyway - government is doing its bit in providing 'jobs' for countless 'spokespersons' and their clerical etc lackeys by tossing them $100m a day to disappear it into 'administrative costs' without any result at all.

Much more oversight is needed - look at ATSIC and what it cost to run corruption to a new level of meaning..... money must be directly allocated to a project on the ground - not into slush funds like governments use themselves.,,, and that, poppets, is the entire problem with governments of all kinds in a nutshell...

$100m a day would prevent Noble Grapplers being carried in by ambulance and then sitting in an ER waiting room chair for hours waiting to get a spot in a hospital while in the midst of heart failure....that money could go to far better uses than lining some administrator's pockets and those of his/her staff - which - of course - is what will happen with any ridiculous voice proposal... just another layer of bludgers on the government ayroll with full perks.
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Gnads
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #1003 - Mar 6th, 2023 at 6:14pm
 
Captain Nemo wrote on Feb 26th, 2023 at 9:30pm:
LOL ... Albo is running for cover already!!!  Grin

https://i.imgur.com/P57DOde.jpg



He's as weak as piss... a disappointing Labor softcock.... when will the find a real leader with some balls?

Whether that be a male or female  Griniiiiiiii





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Gnads
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #1004 - Mar 6th, 2023 at 6:26pm
 
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Feb 28th, 2023 at 9:54am:
We prefer the term "pimply faced, fat-arsed (probably with pimples), latte` sippers who've never once gone out to actually see".

How many of these armchair 'experts' so loudly proclaiming "the Abos could have burnt the bush off better" actually ever SAW a burnoff and the conditions in which it is allowed?  How would a few Abos scattered across a vast area even achieve it to the extent that big fires never happened?  It didn't matter if a big fire occurred because there weren't enough of them to be bothered by it.  Just go and catch a wallaby somewhere else.

So they limited their burns to an area where they might be coming back later..... just torch and go, and it didn't matter if it got out of control.

There's no ooga-booga in it.... NOBODY is permitted to light a fire in hot windy conditions .... and every farmer does a 'traditional burn' every year in some spots.

FFS... it's not rocket burn science.

What else can they teach anyone these days?  Let's hear it..... Hunting At Macca's with the Footyjira Tribe?  Hey, Boss - guess what - where trees grow is where there's more water!  **picks self up off floor**



Exactly right Graps... & all these bed wetters carry on that they need to have Aboriginals or part thereof teaching people on the land about controlled burns & cold burns.

The bloke they reckoned knew everything about it is some flyby who's still shyting yellow.... wouldn't have ever spoken to or learnt shyte from any tribal elder.

Just a BS story about I'm Aboriginal so I know more about burning off (not fire fighting) than whitey.

There's been grazier families on the land doing it for over a 150 years.
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