Australian Politics Forum - Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins

Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #105 - Oct 18^th, 2022 at 7:46pm

No underwear, you say? Makes it easy to slip a dress off for a kip then ....maybe that's how she ended up naked.

I recall the initial security guard check said 'partially naked' and the second said naked. Clarification needed...

So she was 'partially naked the whole time'... for what reason? No undies? For hours of drinking on end...... and the night didn't turn out the way she expected... WTF does that mean?

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Frank

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Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #106 - Oct 18^th, 2022 at 7:46pm

mothra wrote on Oct 18^th, 2022 at 5:32am:

What continues to break my heart is that even in this day and, if a woman does not submit to immediate forensic examination post rape, she has no evidence.

And so accusations of rape come down to "he said/she said".

So little compassion for a person who is undeniably in a state of shock after being horrifically violated. So little understanding of what that might do to a person.

Anyone - woman or not - needs evidence. Being a woman is not oracular - you still need evidence.

Yes. Accusation is not proof. Just SAYING that there was rape is not enough - see above, women are not oracles.

'Undeniable state of shock' due to what? 'Being horribly violated' needs evidence - see above.

Women can and do lie. They are human, not oracular goddesses. So can and do men. Being a woman is not evidence of anything.

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #107 - Oct 18^th, 2022 at 8:08pm

mothra is one of those Joans of Arc who want every accusation by a woman to lead to instant conviction, and every woman to be accepted as totally right regardless of every other factor.....

Maybe she should discuss that with the men who have spent years in prison to be exonerated on DNA.....

Women are not infallible and are not always truthful... and there are countless reasons why an accusation cannot be taken at face value... that is why we have rules .....

Throw the rules out and there will be no accusations...... since there will be no survivors of rape... that's what would happen.

I cannot train fools.

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Aussie

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Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #108 - Oct 18^th, 2022 at 8:08pm

Frank wrote on Oct 18^th, 2022 at 7:46pm:

mothra wrote on Oct 18^th, 2022 at 5:32am:

What continues to break my heart is that even in this day and, if a woman does not submit to immediate forensic examination post rape, she has no evidence.

And so accusations of rape come down to "he said/she said".

So little compassion for a person who is undeniably in a state of shock after being horrifically violated. So little understanding of what that might do to a person.

Anyone - woman or not - needs evidence. Being a woman is not oracular - you still need evidence.

Yes. Accusation is not proof. Just SAYING that there was rape is not enough - see above, women are not oracles.

'Undeniable state of shock' due to what? 'Being horribly violated' needs evidence - see above.

Women can and do lie. They are human, not oracular goddesses. So can and do men. Being a woman is not evidence of anything.

In this matter, Higgins wins on points as far as I am concerned. She was in the box, sworn, under oath, stated her case and dealt with cross examination.

He, some might say, cowardly, stayed out of the box, and said NOTHING under oath and avoided cross examination.

I know. I have been there. I have had this conversation with accused people many many times, and every time, at the end of it, I had the client sign a document declaring that I had explained the options to him...give evidence or not give evidence and what follows in each case.....and I also had them write in their own hand whether they wanted to get in the box or not. Yes, we tin plate our arses every time.

Those who I privately believed had NOT done an act they were charged with invariably got in the box......those whose story was dicey, ie those I privately did not believe had NOT done said act invariably ducked for cover. Some of the former were still convicted and some of the latter were nonetheless acquitted.

Ya never know what a Jury will do especially when the 13th Juror does their performance.

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« Last Edit: Oct 18^th, 2022 at 8:18pm by Aussie »

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UnSubRocky

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Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #109 - Oct 18^th, 2022 at 8:09pm

mothra wrote on Oct 18^th, 2022 at 5:32am:

What continues to break my heart is that even in this day and, if a woman does not submit to immediate forensic examination post rape, she has no evidence.

And so accusations of rape come down to "he said/she said".

So little compassion for a person who is undeniably in a state of shock after being horrifically violated. So little understanding of what that might do to a person.

And just look! When a person comes forward, what do they meet?

Shame on the lot of you. You utterly sicken me.

What if someone claimed that you committed common assault upon them? The complainant waits until the next day where the DNA evidence had been washed away. The person has no witnesses to back up their claim. They go to the media and say that they have been violated. And all they have to go on for the possibility of being assaulted is that you have admitted to knowing/meeting the person and being within the location where the assault took place.

Would it not be all that plausible that you have the right to deny that you have committed such an act? It definitely comes down to the complainant having to make a case against you. Otherwise, it only takes a denial of the accused to win their case.

Surely, you have some doubts that Lehrmann has committed an act of rape.

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At this stage...

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Aussie

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Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #110 - Oct 18^th, 2022 at 8:17pm

UnSubRocky wrote on Oct 18^th, 2022 at 8:09pm:

mothra wrote on Oct 18^th, 2022 at 5:32am:

What continues to break my heart is that even in this day and, if a woman does not submit to immediate forensic examination post rape, she has no evidence.

And so accusations of rape come down to "he said/she said".

So little compassion for a person who is undeniably in a state of shock after being horrifically violated. So little understanding of what that might do to a person.

And just look! When a person comes forward, what do they meet?

Shame on the lot of you. You utterly sicken me.

What if someone claimed that you committed common assault upon them? The complainant waits until the next day where the DNA evidence had been washed away. The person has no witnesses to back up their claim. They go to the media and say that they have been violated. And all they have to go on for the possibility of being assaulted is that you have admitted to knowing/meeting the person and being within the location where the assault took place.

Would it not be all that plausible that you have the right to deny that you have committed such an act? It definitely comes down to the complainant having to make a case against you. Otherwise, it only takes a denial of the accused to win their case.

Surely, you have some doubts that Lehrmann has committed an act of rape.

I have no doubt he did*. But, I have every doubt he will be convicted.

*His story made no sense in that each of his various reasons for going to the Suite, taking her with him, and then leaving her there 'hurriedly,' do not add up to get anywhere near passing a pub test.

What removed all doubt in my mind was when he did not give evidence.

Just like Trump makes all sorts of denial claims in social media, he NOT once yet has had the balls to make those infamous claims under oath. Talk is cheap, being in the witness box, under oath, being closely questioned efficiently is a whole different kettle of fish.

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #111 - Oct 18^th, 2022 at 8:23pm

https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/news/2018/sep/4/study-finds-wrongful-convictions...

"A recent study by the Urban Institute estimated that “wrongful convictions in cases with a sexual assault component occurred at a rate of 11.6 percent.”

While the research was based on 714 murder and felony sexual assault cases across 56 Virginia circuit courts, it concluded that the wrongful conviction rate was “not significantly different from other states, suggesting that findings of research may be extended – with caution – to other jurisdictions.”

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Grappler Truth Teller Feller Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 83519 Proud pre-1850's NO Voter Gender:	Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins Reply #112 - Oct 18^th, 2022 at 8:25pm No inference can be drawn from his refusal to give evidence on oath. It is up to the prosecution then to prove beyond any reasonable doubt. Besides - the defence case has just begun...
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Aussie

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Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #113 - Oct 18^th, 2022 at 8:25pm

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Oct 18^th, 2022 at 8:23pm:

https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/news/2018/sep/4/study-finds-wrongful-convictions...

"A recent study by the Urban Institute estimated that “wrongful convictions in cases with a sexual assault component occurred at a rate of 11.6 percent.”

While the research was based on 714 murder and felony sexual assault cases across 56 Virginia circuit courts, it concluded that the wrongful conviction rate was “not significantly different from other states, suggesting that findings of research may be extended – with caution – to other jurisdictions.”

Grappler, which of his three versions NOT made under oath for going to the Suite that night was the truth and how does the one you select make any sense?

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 83519 Proud pre-1850's NO Voter Gender:	Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins Reply #114 - Oct 18^th, 2022 at 8:30pm https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-10-18/prosecution-defence-make-closing-submissi...
Back to top	“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.” ― John Adams IP Logged

Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #115 - Oct 18^th, 2022 at 8:31pm

Aussie wrote on Oct 18^th, 2022 at 8:25pm:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Oct 18^th, 2022 at 8:23pm:

https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/news/2018/sep/4/study-finds-wrongful-convictions...

"A recent study by the Urban Institute estimated that “wrongful convictions in cases with a sexual assault component occurred at a rate of 11.6 percent.”

While the research was based on 714 murder and felony sexual assault cases across 56 Virginia circuit courts, it concluded that the wrongful conviction rate was “not significantly different from other states, suggesting that findings of research may be extended – with caution – to other jurisdictions.”

Grappler, which of his three versions NOT made under oath for going to the Suite that night was the truth and how does the one you select make any sense?

What version did I select?

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Aussie

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Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #116 - Oct 18^th, 2022 at 8:31pm

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Oct 18^th, 2022 at 8:25pm:

No inference can be drawn from his refusal to give evidence on oath.

It is up to the prosecution then to prove beyond any reasonable doubt.

Besides - the defence case has just begun...

Ya know...you said something up there about not being able to train fools. I found that quite odd, given how personally experienced you are in such matters.

The 'defence' did not open a case, they called NO witnesses.

Sure, Defence Counsel is now addressing the Jury, but he cannot rely on ANY sworn evidence he presented to the Jury. Their 'case' now boils down to fluff from a Barrister and whatever bullshit this guy chose to tell the Cops...not under oath.

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Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #117 - Oct 18^th, 2022 at 8:33pm

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Oct 18^th, 2022 at 8:31pm:

Aussie wrote on Oct 18^th, 2022 at 8:25pm:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Oct 18^th, 2022 at 8:23pm:

https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/news/2018/sep/4/study-finds-wrongful-convictions...

"A recent study by the Urban Institute estimated that “wrongful convictions in cases with a sexual assault component occurred at a rate of 11.6 percent.”

While the research was based on 714 murder and felony sexual assault cases across 56 Virginia circuit courts, it concluded that the wrongful conviction rate was “not significantly different from other states, suggesting that findings of research may be extended – with caution – to other jurisdictions.”

Grappler, which of his three versions NOT made under oath for going to the Suite that night was the truth and how does the one you select make any sense?

What version did I select?

You didn't. I am asking you NOW to make your selection and to tell me why you discarded the other two.

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Frank

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Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #118 - Oct 18^th, 2022 at 8:45pm

Aussie wrote on Oct 18^th, 2022 at 8:08pm:

Frank wrote on Oct 18^th, 2022 at 7:46pm:

mothra wrote on Oct 18^th, 2022 at 5:32am:

What continues to break my heart is that even in this day and, if a woman does not submit to immediate forensic examination post rape, she has no evidence.

And so accusations of rape come down to "he said/she said".

So little compassion for a person who is undeniably in a state of shock after being horrifically violated. So little understanding of what that might do to a person.

Anyone - woman or not - needs evidence. Being a woman is not oracular - you still need evidence.

Yes. Accusation is not proof. Just SAYING that there was rape is not enough - see above, women are not oracles.

'Undeniable state of shock' due to what? 'Being horribly violated' needs evidence - see above.

Women can and do lie. They are human, not oracular goddesses. So can and do men. Being a woman is not evidence of anything.

In this matter, Higgins wins on points as far as I am concerned. She was in the box, sworn, under oath, stated her case and dealt with cross examination.

He, some might say, cowardly, stayed out of the box, and said NOTHING under oath and avoided cross examination.

I know. I have been there. I have had this conversation with accused people many many times, and every time, at the end of it, I had the client sign a document declaring that I had explained the options to him...give evidence or not give evidence and what follows in each case.....and I also had them write in their own hand whether they wanted to get in the box or not. Yes, we tin plate our arses every time.

Those who I privately believed had NOT done an act they were charged with invariably got in the box......those whose story was dicey, ie those I privately did not believe had NOT done said act invariably ducked for cover. Some of the former were still convicted and some of the latter were nonetheless acquitted.

Ya never know what a Jury will do especially when the 13th Juror does their performance.

Bollox.

You watch too much TV, arse.

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #119 - Oct 18^th, 2022 at 8:48pm

Aussie wrote on Oct 18^th, 2022 at 8:33pm:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Oct 18^th, 2022 at 8:31pm:

Aussie wrote on Oct 18^th, 2022 at 8:25pm:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Oct 18^th, 2022 at 8:23pm:

https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/news/2018/sep/4/study-finds-wrongful-convictions...

"A recent study by the Urban Institute estimated that “wrongful convictions in cases with a sexual assault component occurred at a rate of 11.6 percent.”

While the research was based on 714 murder and felony sexual assault cases across 56 Virginia circuit courts, it concluded that the wrongful conviction rate was “not significantly different from other states, suggesting that findings of research may be extended – with caution – to other jurisdictions.”

Grappler, which of his three versions NOT made under oath for going to the Suite that night was the truth and how does the one you select make any sense?

What version did I select?

You didn't. I am asking you NOW to make your selection and to tell me why you discarded the other two.

I don't intend to... it makes no difference to whether or not a sexual assault took place. THAT is the question...

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Poll
Question: Will there be a conviction?
Yes 3 (14.3%) No 17 (81.0%) Not sure 1 (4.8%) Total votes: 21 « Created by: Lisa Jones on: Oct 22^nd, 2022 at 7:49am »