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Question: Will there be a conviction?

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Total votes: 21
« Created by: Lisa Jones on: Oct 22nd, 2022 at 7:49am »

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Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins (Read 36168 times)
Frank
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Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #1140 - Dec 4th, 2022 at 8:08am
 
mothra wrote on Dec 4th, 2022 at 7:01am:
MeisterEckhart wrote on Dec 4th, 2022 at 6:54am:
Lisa Jones wrote on Dec 4th, 2022 at 6:48am:
Aussie why are YOU so silent about DUMBGOLD?

The DPP was right to end this sad fiasco.

Higgins corrupted her cause when she went to the media, lied about facts in the case and acted illegally to corner Federal ministers.



When did she lie?

The most senior police officer on the Brittany Higgins case believed there was insufficient evidence to prosecute Bruce Lehrmann but could not stop the ACT Director of Public Prosecutions from proceeding because “there is too much political interference”, ­according to diary notes made by the ACT Police Manager of Criminal Investigations, Detective Superintendent Scott Moller.

In a separate executive briefing last year, Superintendent Moller advised that investigators “have serious concerns in relation to the strength and reliability of [Ms Higgins’] evidence but also more importantly her mental health and how any future ­prosecution may affect her ­wellbeing”.

On Friday the ACT DPP, Shane Drumgold SC, withdrew the charges against Mr Lehrmann, citing concerns for Ms Higgins’ mental health, so his retrial – set down for February – will no longer proceed. The original trial was aborted in October due to juror misconduct.

The executive briefing lists a series of concerns by senior police, including that Ms Higgins had ­repeatedly refused to provide her original mobile phone; had ­deliberately deleted messages from a second phone; had lied about seeking medical attention after the incident; and had joked about wanting “a sex scandal” a month before the incident. Some became issues at the trial.

The briefing, dated June 9, 2021, states that “there is limited corroborative evidence of sexual intercourse taking place or ­consent being withdrawn or not provided”.

An attached minute signed by Detective Inspector Marcus Boorman, the investigation manager assigned to the case, states: “Investigators at this juncture have a number of concerns ­regarding inconsistencies in disclosures and other evidence ­obtained during the investigation. In light of the issues identified, ­serious concerns exist as to whether there is sufficient ­evidence to prove the alleged ­offence.”

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/nation/police-doubted-brittany-higgins-but-case...
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Lisa Jones
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Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #1141 - Dec 4th, 2022 at 8:10am
 
MeisterEckhart wrote on Dec 4th, 2022 at 7:59am:
Lisa Jones wrote on Dec 4th, 2022 at 7:51am:
You're effectively saying that DUMBGOLD himself would have ended up suffering from stress and no doubt other mental health issues such as being suicidal too. Why? Because of this matter.

I'm effectively saying the DPP would have had to announce that it was not proceeding but would have been unable to publish all the facts of the case, facts that the DPP  may not have known anyway, like the lies about the panties, the dress, the doctors - they only came out under cross-examination.

Did Higgins tell the prosecution - before she took the stand - the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth? We'll never know.


1. I think it's clear (now) that Brittany (for whatever reason/s)*
didn't tell the WHOLE truth.

* That's what's killing me right now.

2. Plus she tried too hard to paint herself very white and tainted the strength of her own case by sanitising texts etc.





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Frank
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Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #1142 - Dec 4th, 2022 at 8:11am
 
Aussie wrote on Dec 4th, 2022 at 7:56am:
MeisterEckhart wrote on Dec 4th, 2022 at 6:38am:
Higgins was severely ill-advised by media personalities throughout this whole sorry saga.

Thinking the media was her friend, she took the bait hook, line and sinker.

She even illegally recorded her discussions with Federal ministers about the matter. Who advised her that would be a good idea, I wonder.

Her motivation for justice ultimately turned out to be tainted by acts of revenge - something that works in the court of public opinion but is, let's say, frowned upon in a court of law.


Huh?  "Illegally."

During the conversation Superintendent Moller showed Ms Higgins text messages ­between herself and Mr Sharaz on May 21, 2021 about her sending him an audio file because she was “clearing out her phone ahead of the police”.

“Ms Higgins told me that the files she had sent to David Sharaz and deleted from her phone related to taped conversations of her talking to various ministers and she was concerned she had committed an offence by taping the ministers so she didn’t want the police to find them.”
https://www.theaustralian.com.au/nation/police-doubted-brittany-higgins-but-case...
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Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #1143 - Dec 4th, 2022 at 9:31am
 
MeisterEckhart wrote on Dec 4th, 2022 at 8:01am:
Aussie wrote on Dec 4th, 2022 at 7:56am:
MeisterEckhart wrote on Dec 4th, 2022 at 6:38am:
Higgins was severely ill-advised by media personalities throughout this whole sorry saga.

Thinking the media was her friend, she took the bait hook, line and sinker.

She even illegally recorded her discussions with Federal ministers about the matter. Who advised her that would be a good idea, I wonder.

Her motivation for justice ultimately turned out to be tainted by acts of revenge - something that works in the court of public opinion but is, let's say, frowned upon in a court of law.


Huh?  "Illegally."

What do the relevant acts have to say about secretly recording people in matters like these?

Did Higgins lead the ministers in her discussions with them while she secretly recorded them?


Perhaps it would have been better if you had checked on them before announcing she had 'illegally recorded.'
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MeisterEckhart
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Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #1144 - Dec 4th, 2022 at 9:31am
 
mothra wrote on Dec 4th, 2022 at 7:47am:
John Smith wrote on Dec 4th, 2022 at 7:39am:
Lisa Jones wrote on Dec 4th, 2022 at 7:33am:
It's now emerged that Bruce himself has been suicidal so duh of course he's going to sue. Think about it DUMBGOLD....he's never going to be able to work again

Sure he will.  A rapist like him? Libs will make him the leader of the party sooner rather than later

And he'll be not only staunchly defended by the denizens of Ozpol, they'll vote for him.

Are you not concerned about Higins' deceptive behaviour?
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mothra
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Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #1145 - Dec 4th, 2022 at 9:37am
 
MeisterEckhart wrote on Dec 4th, 2022 at 9:31am:
mothra wrote on Dec 4th, 2022 at 7:47am:
John Smith wrote on Dec 4th, 2022 at 7:39am:
Lisa Jones wrote on Dec 4th, 2022 at 7:33am:
It's now emerged that Bruce himself has been suicidal so duh of course he's going to sue. Think about it DUMBGOLD....he's never going to be able to work again

Sure he will.  A rapist like him? Libs will make him the leader of the party sooner rather than later

And he'll be not only staunchly defended by the denizens of Ozpol, they'll vote for him.

Are you not concerned about Higins' deceptive behaviour?


"Deceptive behaviour"?

What a laugh.

I'll tell you what i'm concerned about. I'm concerned that a woman was found naked in a ministerial office after being brought in by a man who "left hurriedly".

I'm concerned that she tried to report it and was shut down.

I'm not particularly interested in whether or not she wore panties or her dress twice. Neither am i interested in whether throughout the absolute hell she has been put through if she contradicted herself on occasion ... or misspoke through anxiety.

I care that a naked woman was found in a ministerial office after being brought in by a man who left hurriedly through the night.
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Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #1146 - Dec 4th, 2022 at 9:37am
 
Frank wrote on Dec 4th, 2022 at 8:08am:
mothra wrote on Dec 4th, 2022 at 7:01am:
MeisterEckhart wrote on Dec 4th, 2022 at 6:54am:
Lisa Jones wrote on Dec 4th, 2022 at 6:48am:
Aussie why are YOU so silent about DUMBGOLD?

The DPP was right to end this sad fiasco.

Higgins corrupted her cause when she went to the media, lied about facts in the case and acted illegally to corner Federal ministers.



When did she lie?

The most senior police officer on the Brittany Higgins case believed there was insufficient evidence to prosecute Bruce Lehrmann but could not stop the ACT Director of Public Prosecutions from proceeding because “there is too much political interference”, ­according to diary notes made by the ACT Police Manager of Criminal Investigations, Detective Superintendent Scott Moller.

In a separate executive briefing last year, Superintendent Moller advised that investigators “have serious concerns in relation to the strength and reliability of [Ms Higgins’] evidence but also more importantly her mental health and how any future ­prosecution may affect her ­wellbeing”.

On Friday the ACT DPP, Shane Drumgold SC, withdrew the charges against Mr Lehrmann, citing concerns for Ms Higgins’ mental health, so his retrial – set down for February – will no longer proceed. The original trial was aborted in October due to juror misconduct.

The executive briefing lists a series of concerns by senior police, including that Ms Higgins had ­repeatedly refused to provide her original mobile phone; had ­deliberately deleted messages from a second phone; had lied about seeking medical attention after the incident; and had joked about wanting “a sex scandal” a month before the incident. Some became issues at the trial.

The briefing, dated June 9, 2021, states that “there is limited corroborative evidence of sexual intercourse taking place or ­consent being withdrawn or not provided”.

An attached minute signed by Detective Inspector Marcus Boorman, the investigation manager assigned to the case, states: “Investigators at this juncture have a number of concerns ­regarding inconsistencies in disclosures and other evidence ­obtained during the investigation. In light of the issues identified, ­serious concerns exist as to whether there is sufficient ­evidence to prove the alleged ­offence.”

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/nation/police-doubted-brittany-higgins-but-case...


I don't give a flying fuq what some copper believed.  What matters is that (a) a Magistrate found there was a prima facie case and committed Lehrmann to Trial, (b) Lehrmann's own Defence Counsel did not at any time make any submission to the Trial Judge that they should dismiss the indictment on the basis of there being insufficient evidence.

The Jury clearly concluded there was sufficient evidence to have him charged as even after almost a week of deliberations, they could not arrive at a unanimous decision.  It would have taken a Jury no more than an hour to acquit if they thought the case had no merit at all. 

Remember, this Trial was aborted not because of a hung Jury, but because a Juror had accessed information they should not have.
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MeisterEckhart
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Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #1147 - Dec 4th, 2022 at 9:40am
 
Aussie wrote on Dec 4th, 2022 at 9:31am:
MeisterEckhart wrote on Dec 4th, 2022 at 8:01am:
Aussie wrote on Dec 4th, 2022 at 7:56am:
MeisterEckhart wrote on Dec 4th, 2022 at 6:38am:
Higgins was severely ill-advised by media personalities throughout this whole sorry saga.

Thinking the media was her friend, she took the bait hook, line and sinker.

She even illegally recorded her discussions with Federal ministers about the matter. Who advised her that would be a good idea, I wonder.

Her motivation for justice ultimately turned out to be tainted by acts of revenge - something that works in the court of public opinion but is, let's say, frowned upon in a court of law.


Huh?  "Illegally."

What do the relevant acts have to say about secretly recording people in matters like these?

Did Higgins lead the ministers in her discussions with them while she secretly recorded them?


Perhaps it would have been better if you had checked on them before announcing she had 'illegally recorded.'

Higgins appeared to believe she had committed an offence. Whether she was advised that it would be an offence in the ACT, I don't know. In any case, she deleted them out of concern that she had committed an offence which may indicate that she knew she could be committing an offence when she recorded them.

An experience I had regarding covertly recording people was with a senior at a place I worked who had a habit of giving verbal instructions to us then, if things went wrong, the senior would deny it. We were advised by our legal team not to consider secretly recording the senior - the course of action recommended was to write a polite email confirming the instructions given.
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MeisterEckhart
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Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #1148 - Dec 4th, 2022 at 9:42am
 
mothra wrote on Dec 4th, 2022 at 9:37am:
MeisterEckhart wrote on Dec 4th, 2022 at 9:31am:
mothra wrote on Dec 4th, 2022 at 7:47am:
John Smith wrote on Dec 4th, 2022 at 7:39am:
Lisa Jones wrote on Dec 4th, 2022 at 7:33am:
It's now emerged that Bruce himself has been suicidal so duh of course he's going to sue. Think about it DUMBGOLD....he's never going to be able to work again

Sure he will.  A rapist like him? Libs will make him the leader of the party sooner rather than later

And he'll be not only staunchly defended by the denizens of Ozpol, they'll vote for him.

Are you not concerned about Higins' deceptive behaviour?


"Deceptive behaviour"?

What a laugh.

I'll tell you what i'm concerned about. I'm concerned that a woman was found naked in a ministerial office after being brought in by a man who "left hurriedly".

I'm concerned that she tried to report it and was shut down.

I'm not particularly interested in whether or not she wore panties or her dress twice. Neither am i interested in whether throughout the absolute hell she has been put through if she contradicted herself on occasion ... or misspoke through anxiety.

I care that a naked woman was found in a ministerial office after being brought in by a man who left hurriedly through the night.

Certainly, the ACT police were concerned about her behaviour towards them and her reluctance to surrender evidence to them and tampering with evidence.

Maybe Higgins is a narcissist who embarrassed herself by getting drunk and consented, then needed a reason after she became the office joke.

You cannot know that was not the case.
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mothra
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Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #1149 - Dec 4th, 2022 at 9:43am
 
Aussie wrote on Dec 4th, 2022 at 9:37am:
Frank wrote on Dec 4th, 2022 at 8:08am:
mothra wrote on Dec 4th, 2022 at 7:01am:
MeisterEckhart wrote on Dec 4th, 2022 at 6:54am:
Lisa Jones wrote on Dec 4th, 2022 at 6:48am:
Aussie why are YOU so silent about DUMBGOLD?

The DPP was right to end this sad fiasco.

Higgins corrupted her cause when she went to the media, lied about facts in the case and acted illegally to corner Federal ministers.



When did she lie?

The most senior police officer on the Brittany Higgins case believed there was insufficient evidence to prosecute Bruce Lehrmann but could not stop the ACT Director of Public Prosecutions from proceeding because “there is too much political interference”, ­according to diary notes made by the ACT Police Manager of Criminal Investigations, Detective Superintendent Scott Moller.

In a separate executive briefing last year, Superintendent Moller advised that investigators “have serious concerns in relation to the strength and reliability of [Ms Higgins’] evidence but also more importantly her mental health and how any future ­prosecution may affect her ­wellbeing”.

On Friday the ACT DPP, Shane Drumgold SC, withdrew the charges against Mr Lehrmann, citing concerns for Ms Higgins’ mental health, so his retrial – set down for February – will no longer proceed. The original trial was aborted in October due to juror misconduct.

The executive briefing lists a series of concerns by senior police, including that Ms Higgins had ­repeatedly refused to provide her original mobile phone; had ­deliberately deleted messages from a second phone; had lied about seeking medical attention after the incident; and had joked about wanting “a sex scandal” a month before the incident. Some became issues at the trial.

The briefing, dated June 9, 2021, states that “there is limited corroborative evidence of sexual intercourse taking place or ­consent being withdrawn or not provided”.

An attached minute signed by Detective Inspector Marcus Boorman, the investigation manager assigned to the case, states: “Investigators at this juncture have a number of concerns ­regarding inconsistencies in disclosures and other evidence ­obtained during the investigation. In light of the issues identified, ­serious concerns exist as to whether there is sufficient ­evidence to prove the alleged ­offence.”

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/nation/police-doubted-brittany-higgins-but-case...


I don't give a flying fuq what some copper believed.  What matters is that (a) a Magistrate found there was a prima facie case and committed Lehrmann to Trial, (b) Lehrmann's own Defence Counsel did not at any time make any submission to the Trial Judge that they should dismiss the indictment on the basis of there being insufficient evidence.

The Jury clearly concluded there was sufficient evidence to have him charged as even after almost a week of deliberations, they could not arrive at a unanimous decision.  It would have taken a Jury no more than an hour to acquit if they thought the case had no merit at all. 

Remember, this Trial was aborted not because of a hung Jury, but because a Juror had accessed information they should not have.



And that the second trial has been cancelled over grave concerns for Ms. Higgins as a result of the absolute microscope she's been under.

But you lot are only concerned with the microscope over which the guy that took a woman to ministerial office in the middle of the night, only to leave hurriedly some time later , and leave a scene in which the woman he'd arrived with was completely naked has been placed under.

Come so far as a society, haven't we.
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mothra
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Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #1150 - Dec 4th, 2022 at 9:44am
 
MeisterEckhart wrote on Dec 4th, 2022 at 9:42am:
mothra wrote on Dec 4th, 2022 at 9:37am:
MeisterEckhart wrote on Dec 4th, 2022 at 9:31am:
mothra wrote on Dec 4th, 2022 at 7:47am:
John Smith wrote on Dec 4th, 2022 at 7:39am:
Lisa Jones wrote on Dec 4th, 2022 at 7:33am:
It's now emerged that Bruce himself has been suicidal so duh of course he's going to sue. Think about it DUMBGOLD....he's never going to be able to work again

Sure he will.  A rapist like him? Libs will make him the leader of the party sooner rather than later

And he'll be not only staunchly defended by the denizens of Ozpol, they'll vote for him.

Are you not concerned about Higins' deceptive behaviour?


"Deceptive behaviour"?

What a laugh.

I'll tell you what i'm concerned about. I'm concerned that a woman was found naked in a ministerial office after being brought in by a man who "left hurriedly".

I'm concerned that she tried to report it and was shut down.

I'm not particularly interested in whether or not she wore panties or her dress twice. Neither am i interested in whether throughout the absolute hell she has been put through if she contradicted herself on occasion ... or misspoke through anxiety.

I care that a naked woman was found in a ministerial office after being brought in by a man who left hurriedly through the night.

Certainly, the ACT police were concerned about her behaviour towards them and her reluctance to surrender evidence to them and tampering with evidence.

Maybe Higgins is a narcissist who embarrassed herself by getting drunk and consented, then needed a reason after she became the office joke.

You cannot know that was not the case.



You don't actually know what a narcissist is, do you.
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If you can't be a good example, you have to be a horrible warning.
 
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Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #1151 - Dec 4th, 2022 at 9:46am
 
Aussie wrote on Dec 4th, 2022 at 9:37am:
It would have taken a Jury no more than an hour to acquit if they thought the case had no merit at all. 

And no more than an hour to convict if they believed there was enough evidence to convict beyond reasonable doubt.
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Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #1152 - Dec 4th, 2022 at 9:49am
 
mothra wrote on Dec 4th, 2022 at 9:44am:
MeisterEckhart wrote on Dec 4th, 2022 at 9:42am:
mothra wrote on Dec 4th, 2022 at 9:37am:
MeisterEckhart wrote on Dec 4th, 2022 at 9:31am:
mothra wrote on Dec 4th, 2022 at 7:47am:
John Smith wrote on Dec 4th, 2022 at 7:39am:
Lisa Jones wrote on Dec 4th, 2022 at 7:33am:
It's now emerged that Bruce himself has been suicidal so duh of course he's going to sue. Think about it DUMBGOLD....he's never going to be able to work again

Sure he will.  A rapist like him? Libs will make him the leader of the party sooner rather than later

And he'll be not only staunchly defended by the denizens of Ozpol, they'll vote for him.

Are you not concerned about Higins' deceptive behaviour?


"Deceptive behaviour"?

What a laugh.

I'll tell you what i'm concerned about. I'm concerned that a woman was found naked in a ministerial office after being brought in by a man who "left hurriedly".

I'm concerned that she tried to report it and was shut down.

I'm not particularly interested in whether or not she wore panties or her dress twice. Neither am i interested in whether throughout the absolute hell she has been put through if she contradicted herself on occasion ... or misspoke through anxiety.

I care that a naked woman was found in a ministerial office after being brought in by a man who left hurriedly through the night.

Certainly, the ACT police were concerned about her behaviour towards them and her reluctance to surrender evidence to them and tampering with evidence.

Maybe Higgins is a narcissist who embarrassed herself by getting drunk and consented, then needed a reason after she became the office joke.

You cannot know that was not the case.

You don't actually know what a narcissist is, do you.

Sure I do. As do you.

You can't know that Higgins was not trying to tidy up a humiliating experience she'd consented to at the time, any more than anyone here can say they know Lehrmann did not rape her.

And we're never likely to know.
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Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #1153 - Dec 4th, 2022 at 9:52am
 
MeisterEckhart wrote on Dec 4th, 2022 at 9:46am:
Aussie wrote on Dec 4th, 2022 at 9:37am:
It would have taken a Jury no more than an hour to acquit if they thought the case had no merit at all. 

And no more than an hour to convict if they believed there was enough evidence to convict beyond reasonable doubt.


Yes, but the point I am making is that there was sufficient meat on the bones of this case for the Jury to still be deliberating for almost seven days.  That puts the lie to the rubbish claims being made that there was insufficient evidence.  If there was insufficient evidence:

1.  The Magistrate would never have committed him for Trial.
2.  Defence Counsel would have made that precise submission to the Trial Judge.  They did not.
3.  The Jury would not have been still deliberating for almost seven days.
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Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #1154 - Dec 4th, 2022 at 10:03am
 
Aussie wrote on Dec 4th, 2022 at 9:52am:
MeisterEckhart wrote on Dec 4th, 2022 at 9:46am:
Aussie wrote on Dec 4th, 2022 at 9:37am:
It would have taken a Jury no more than an hour to acquit if they thought the case had no merit at all. 

And no more than an hour to convict if they believed there was enough evidence to convict beyond reasonable doubt.


Yes, but the point I am making is that there was sufficient meat on the bones of this case for the Jury to still be deliberating for almost seven days.  That puts the lie to the rubbish claims being made that there was insufficient evidence.  If there was insufficient evidence:

1.  The Magistrate would never have committed him for Trial.
2.  Defence Counsel would have made that precise submission to the Trial Judge.  They did not.
3.  The Jury would not have been still deliberating for almost seven days.

Yes. As hard as it is to accept for many, we're never going to be certain what actually happened and why.

That's a hard pill to swallow in a society that demands enough information on everything to always come to an indisputable conclusion.
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