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Question: Will there be a conviction?

Yes    
  3 (14.3%)
No    
  17 (81.0%)
Not sure    
  1 (4.8%)




Total votes: 21
« Created by: Lisa Jones on: Oct 22nd, 2022 at 7:49am »

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Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins (Read 35906 times)
Grappler Truth Teller Feller
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Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #120 - Oct 18th, 2022 at 8:51pm
 
Frank wrote on Oct 18th, 2022 at 8:45pm:
Aussie wrote on Oct 18th, 2022 at 8:08pm:
Frank wrote on Oct 18th, 2022 at 7:46pm:
mothra wrote on Oct 18th, 2022 at 5:32am:
What continues to break my heart is that even in this day and, if a woman does not submit to immediate forensic examination post rape, she has no evidence.

And so accusations of rape come down to "he said/she said".

So little compassion for a person who is undeniably in a state of shock after being horrifically violated. So little understanding of what that might do to a person.



Anyone - woman or not - needs evidence. Being a woman is not oracular - you still need evidence.

Yes. Accusation is not proof. Just SAYING that there was rape is not enough - see above, women are not oracles.

'Undeniable state of shock' due to what? 'Being horribly violated' needs evidence - see above.

Women can and do lie. They are human, not oracular goddesses. So can and do men. Being a woman is not evidence of anything.


In this matter, Higgins wins on points as far as I am concerned.  She was in the box, sworn, under oath, stated her case and dealt with cross examination.

He, some might say, cowardly, stayed out of the box, and said NOTHING under oath and avoided cross examination.

I know.  I have been there.  I have had this conversation with accused people many many times, and every time, at the end of it, I had the client sign a document declaring that I had explained the options to him...give evidence or not give evidence and what follows in each case.....and I also had them write in their own hand whether they wanted to get in the box or not.  Yes, we tin plate our arses every time.

Those who I privately believed had NOT done an act they were charged with invariably got in the box......those whose story was dicey, ie those I privately did not believe had NOT done said act invariably ducked for cover.  Some of the former were still convicted and some of the latter were nonetheless acquitted.

Ya never know what a Jury will do especially when the 13th Juror does their performance.

Bollox.

You watch too much TV, arse.



Never spoken to the man face to face either.  Forget the slinky eyed newspaper photos.... they take dozens and pick the one most likely to support their already chosen viewpoint.

It's all in introduction to journalism...
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Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #121 - Oct 18th, 2022 at 9:09pm
 
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Oct 18th, 2022 at 8:48pm:
Aussie wrote on Oct 18th, 2022 at 8:33pm:
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Oct 18th, 2022 at 8:31pm:
Aussie wrote on Oct 18th, 2022 at 8:25pm:
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Oct 18th, 2022 at 8:23pm:
https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/news/2018/sep/4/study-finds-wrongful-convictions...

"A recent study by the Urban Institute estimated that “wrongful convictions in cases with a sexual assault component occurred at a rate of 11.6 percent.”

While the research was based on 714 murder and felony sexual assault cases across 56 Virginia circuit courts, it concluded that the wrongful conviction rate was “not significantly different from other states, suggesting that findings of research may be extended – with caution – to other jurisdictions.”


Grappler, which of his three versions NOT made under oath for going to the Suite that night was the truth and how does the one you select make any sense?


What version did I select?


You didn't.  I am asking you NOW to make your selection and to tell me why you discarded the other two.



I don't intend to... it makes no difference to whether or not a sexual assault took place.  THAT is the question...


It is what I reckon the Jury will be looking at the hardest.  It will be WHY he did not get in the box.  It is impossible to reconcile the three different reasons, and two of them make zero sense....the third....drink whisky...well....there ya go.  Might as well take an already pissed woman with you, get her more smashed and have your evil way, ey?
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Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #122 - Oct 18th, 2022 at 10:39pm
 
Aussie wrote on Oct 18th, 2022 at 9:09pm:
Might as well take an already pissed woman with you, get her more smashed and have your evil way, ey?


None of which necessarily follows, whatever his justification for going there.  You need evidence to pursue that line..... and the evidence that he had his evil way is thin at best.

So it looks like even if convicted he will win on appeal.  The ball-less court will find guilt to satisfy the baying of the heathen at the door and to make it look as if they are 'defending' the 'poor victim', he will get instant bail, appeal, and win.
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Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #123 - Oct 18th, 2022 at 10:48pm
 
So he went to get some papers, to get his keys and some papers, or to drink whiskey.  Maybe he was confused after a heavy session and was traumatised by losing his job...

There is zero substantial corroborating evidence to suggest he did anything other than those things.... maybe she flaked instead of drinking whiskey with him, and he said "fock this - I'm going home!" ... meanwhile she, flaked on the couch with her dress raveled, is observed by a security staffer as 'partially naked'.... she was wearing no panties (?) or 'underwear'.... later observed to be fully naked.... so... did she strip off to sleep?

None of which proves sexual assault took place.

THAT is the only question the jury should be looking at..... and due to her testimony, it can't just be a 'maybe he felt her up' ....

Your personal and emotional view is not relevant, aussie.... the facts are what counts, and you know it. 

You are doing exactly what can be so wrong in our courts - following your 'copper's instinct' - the kind that makes an NT cop say to Lindy Chamberlain after she was freed - "I know you did it!  I just can't prove it now!"

Your 'instinct' has no place here.  Jesus - imagine having you as a lawyer doing a Jozef Mengele and deciding at the gate which of your clients will go to the gas chamber and which to work.

Now wonder around 1:8.5 rape convictees, around 12%, are innocent....
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Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #124 - Oct 18th, 2022 at 11:37pm
 
Aussie wrote on Oct 18th, 2022 at 8:17pm:
UnSubRocky wrote on Oct 18th, 2022 at 8:09pm:
Surely, you have some doubts that Lehrmann has committed an act of rape.


I have no doubt he did*.  But, I have every doubt he will be convicted.

*His story made no sense in that each of his various reasons for going to the Suite, taking her with him, and then leaving her there 'hurriedly,' do not add up to get anywhere near passing a pub test.

What removed all doubt in my mind was when he did not give evidence.

Just like Trump makes all sorts of denial claims in social media, he NOT once yet has had the balls to make those infamous claims under oath.  Talk is cheap, being in the witness box, under oath, being closely questioned efficiently is a whole different kettle of fish. 


The doubt I have is that Lehrmann claims to not even have had sex with Higgins. I find this unlikely. Though, I would find that Higgins has a tough time convincing me and a lot of others that she was nonconsensual to the act.

Lehrmann claims that he went to Parliament House and was there at some time of night to do a few things. Lehrmann had Higgins going with him into Parliament. He left without Higgins sometime later. Lehrmann allegedly claims that he never saw Higgins again that night.

If Lehrmann claims that Higgins was very drunk that night, it would be reasonable to assume that he could have checked in on Higgins. I doubt Lehrmann never did a welfare check on Higgins. A drunk Brittany Higgins might well have been easy for Lehrmann to rape. But, I figure that some kind of sexual activity between Lehrmann and Higgins would have taken place.

It is just the way Higgins tells her story. She claimed to have said "no" half a dozen times at least. If she was that lucid in her recollections, she could have been able to stop Lehrmann from committing rape. Anything forceful would have resulted in bruising or other types of tell-tale injuries during a rape.

It seems as if this is a case of a casual fling getting turned into a rape allegation over a change of mind after the fact. But, I cannot prove anything on any account. And I figure that, unless Lehrmann goes on the stand and makes an arse of himself, he will be acquitted.
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At this stage...
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Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #125 - Oct 19th, 2022 at 1:26am
 
There would have been a few raised eyebrows in the gallery when it was revealed Brittany wasn't wearing any panties!  Cool
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Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #126 - Oct 19th, 2022 at 7:19am
 
UnSubRocky wrote on Oct 18th, 2022 at 11:37pm:
Aussie wrote on Oct 18th, 2022 at 8:17pm:
UnSubRocky wrote on Oct 18th, 2022 at 8:09pm:
Surely, you have some doubts that Lehrmann has committed an act of rape.


I have no doubt he did*.  But, I have every doubt he will be convicted.

*His story made no sense in that each of his various reasons for going to the Suite, taking her with him, and then leaving her there 'hurriedly,' do not add up to get anywhere near passing a pub test.

What removed all doubt in my mind was when he did not give evidence.

Just like Trump makes all sorts of denial claims in social media, he NOT once yet has had the balls to make those infamous claims under oath.  Talk is cheap, being in the witness box, under oath, being closely questioned efficiently is a whole different kettle of fish. 


The doubt I have is that Lehrmann claims to not even have had sex with Higgins. I find this unlikely. Though, I would find that Higgins has a tough time convincing me and a lot of others that she was nonconsensual to the act.

Lehrmann claims that he went to Parliament House and was there at some time of night to do a few things. Lehrmann had Higgins going with him into Parliament. He left without Higgins sometime later. Lehrmann allegedly claims that he never saw Higgins again that night.

If Lehrmann claims that Higgins was very drunk that night, it would be reasonable to assume that he could have checked in on Higgins. I doubt Lehrmann never did a welfare check on Higgins. A drunk Brittany Higgins might well have been easy for Lehrmann to rape. But, I figure that some kind of sexual activity between Lehrmann and Higgins would have taken place.

It is just the way Higgins tells her story. She claimed to have said "no" half a dozen times at least. If she was that lucid in her recollections, she could have been able to stop Lehrmann from committing rape. Anything forceful would have resulted in bruising or other types of tell-tale injuries during a rape.

It seems as if this is a case of a casual fling getting turned into a rape allegation over a change of mind after the fact. But, I cannot prove anything on any account. And I figure that, unless Lehrmann goes on the stand and makes an arse of himself, he will be acquitted.


   This is a very likely scenario. A drunken "Wouldn't it be fun to f-k in the Ministers office!" lark that seemed like a good idea at the time.  After the deed is done she flakes and he leaves her.... She wakes up, thinks back on what has occurred and is mortified.   Of course its equally possible he did rape her. Leaving her alone, naked and drunk in the Ministers office is the mark of someone with little regard for anothers welfare or feelings, so rape is entirely within character.    Given the abysmal way the situation has been handled the accused will be found not guilty.
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Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #127 - Oct 19th, 2022 at 7:24am
 
Some very interesting comments.

I've deliberately stayed away from this topic because I keep coming up with all sorts of different opinions. 

Here is what I do know : As a woman I've always been cautious about attending work - related events. I've seen married people cheat on their partners and I myself was once attacked by my manager who was very drunk. I was 21 and his hands and mouth were all over me but I recall being frozen in shock before realising that this guy was twice my age and was married and probably had no idea (because of alcohol) ... that he was being so inappropriate.

In all honesty I've never recovered from the SHOCK of the sudden unusual and inappropriate behaviour of that manager. To this day it affects me. I'm glad I got away from him because despite his age and size - I displayed more common sense and responsible behaviour AND because I had no alcohol intake I was strong/alert (enough) to get away from the idiot.

I have never spoken about this event since. Today is the first time. Why? It's not easy. You're not sure who will believe you. Especially if the guy who's attacked you is much older and well connected. Look at the explosive outcome for speaking up. It's terribly traumatic. The only winners here will be the lawyers.

Bottom line?

If you can't bring your partner then simply don't go. People tend to go next level stupid. And that's usually BEFORE any alcohol intake.


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« Last Edit: Oct 19th, 2022 at 7:29am by Lisa Jones »  

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Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #128 - Oct 19th, 2022 at 8:32am
 
Belgarion wrote on Oct 19th, 2022 at 7:19am:
UnSubRocky wrote on Oct 18th, 2022 at 11:37pm:
Aussie wrote on Oct 18th, 2022 at 8:17pm:
UnSubRocky wrote on Oct 18th, 2022 at 8:09pm:
Surely, you have some doubts that Lehrmann has committed an act of rape.


I have no doubt he did*.  But, I have every doubt he will be convicted.

*His story made no sense in that each of his various reasons for going to the Suite, taking her with him, and then leaving her there 'hurriedly,' do not add up to get anywhere near passing a pub test.

What removed all doubt in my mind was when he did not give evidence.

Just like Trump makes all sorts of denial claims in social media, he NOT once yet has had the balls to make those infamous claims under oath.  Talk is cheap, being in the witness box, under oath, being closely questioned efficiently is a whole different kettle of fish. 


The doubt I have is that Lehrmann claims to not even have had sex with Higgins. I find this unlikely. Though, I would find that Higgins has a tough time convincing me and a lot of others that she was nonconsensual to the act.

Lehrmann claims that he went to Parliament House and was there at some time of night to do a few things. Lehrmann had Higgins going with him into Parliament. He left without Higgins sometime later. Lehrmann allegedly claims that he never saw Higgins again that night.

If Lehrmann claims that Higgins was very drunk that night, it would be reasonable to assume that he could have checked in on Higgins. I doubt Lehrmann never did a welfare check on Higgins. A drunk Brittany Higgins might well have been easy for Lehrmann to rape. But, I figure that some kind of sexual activity between Lehrmann and Higgins would have taken place.

It is just the way Higgins tells her story. She claimed to have said "no" half a dozen times at least. If she was that lucid in her recollections, she could have been able to stop Lehrmann from committing rape. Anything forceful would have resulted in bruising or other types of tell-tale injuries during a rape.

It seems as if this is a case of a casual fling getting turned into a rape allegation over a change of mind after the fact. But, I cannot prove anything on any account. And I figure that, unless Lehrmann goes on the stand and makes an arse of himself, he will be acquitted.


   This is a very likely scenario. A drunken "Wouldn't it be fun to f-k in the Ministers office!" lark that seemed like a good idea at the time.  After the deed is done she flakes and he leaves her.... She wakes up, thinks back on what has occurred and is mortified.   Of course its equally possible he did rape her. Leaving her alone, naked and drunk in the Ministers office is the mark of someone with little regard for anothers welfare or feelings, so rape is entirely within character.    Given the abysmal way the situation has been handled the accused will be found not guilty.


Well - I agree he was a pig.... maybe too much of the bottle himself... maybe had brewer's droop...

"Given the abysmal way the situation has been handled the accused will be found not guilty."  Exactly... or he'll win an appeal...


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Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #129 - Oct 19th, 2022 at 8:40am
 
It's a concern that so many here consider him guilty regardless of anything else....... they WANT to rush to judgement and see a hanging....

That's why 12% of rape convictions are disproven and the real victims exonerated... often after serving years in prison.... people are still stupid enough to think that someone accused is automatically guilty.... wrong completely - it's just that under our fatally flawed judiciary and juries they are most likely to be found guilty on the basis above rather than on facts as required.

The bastard wouldn't be there if he hadn't done it, right?  People mistake the reign of terror by a corrupt judiciary and courts and police bent on maintaining some status quo for true justice in the courts here as required.... been that way for over 200 years... ask any Abo or poor boy.... nobody is allowed to challenge city hall .... and guilt by accusation has been more the norm, especially in the lower courts, since 1788 ....

We need a totally new government with balls and guts to set these things right, and we won't get it with the Tag Team Government Of Two Parties and adjuncts in their well-padded self-interest and luxury.

Vote 1 - Grappler Party - We ARE The people!!
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Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #130 - Oct 19th, 2022 at 8:41am
 
Johnnie wrote on Oct 19th, 2022 at 1:26am:
There would have been a few raised eyebrows in the gallery when it was revealed Brittany wasn't wearing any panties!  Cool


I also found that rather odd when she admitted that!

Do women often not wear underwear because it shows lines wear the nickers are under the dress?


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Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #131 - Oct 19th, 2022 at 8:48am
 
Redmond Neck wrote on Oct 19th, 2022 at 8:41am:
Johnnie wrote on Oct 19th, 2022 at 1:26am:
There would have been a few raised eyebrows in the gallery when it was revealed Brittany wasn't wearing any panties!  Cool


I also found that rather odd when she admitted that!

Do women often not wear underwear because it shows lines where the knickers are under the dress?

I dont believe so....so I think it makes one wonder if she is a bit weird.




Amended and spelling corrected.
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Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #132 - Oct 19th, 2022 at 8:49am
 
bump
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Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #133 - Oct 19th, 2022 at 8:50am
 
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Oct 19th, 2022 at 8:40am:
It's a concern that so many here consider him guilty regardless of anything else....... they WANT to rush to judgement and see a hanging....


Except nobody has done that, except maybe Mothra.

Quote:
That's why 12% of rape convictions are disproven and the real victims exonerated... often after serving years in prison.... people are still stupid enough to think that someone accused is automatically guilty.... wrong completely - it's just that under our fatally flawed judiciary and juries they are most likely to be found guilty on the basis above rather than on facts as required.


I suggest that is crap Grappler.

Quote:
The bastard wouldn't be there if he hadn't done it, right?  People mistake the reign of terror by a corrupt judiciary and courts and police bent on maintaining some status quo for true justice in the courts here as required.... been that way for over 200 years... ask any Abo or poor boy.... nobody is allowed to challenge city hall .... and guilt by accusation has been more the norm, especially in the lower courts, since 1788 ....


It has not worked that way in the many years of my professional experience.  Hard evidence is what wins the day in the end.


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Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #134 - Oct 19th, 2022 at 9:02am
 
Redmond Neck wrote on Oct 19th, 2022 at 8:48am:
Redmond Neck wrote on Oct 19th, 2022 at 8:41am:
Johnnie wrote on Oct 19th, 2022 at 1:26am:
There would have been a few raised eyebrows in the gallery when it was revealed Brittany wasn't wearing any panties!  Cool


I also found that rather odd when she admitted that!

Do women often not wear underwear because it shows lines where the knickers are under the dress?

I dont believe so....so I think it makes one wonder if she is a bit weird.





Perhaps one of the lady members might comment on the no underwear.

Is this a common practice?

It has no bearing on whether he raped her or not I realise that, however I reckon he will get off!

She is a weirdo!

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