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Question: Will there be a conviction?

Yes    
  3 (14.3%)
No    
  17 (81.0%)
Not sure    
  1 (4.8%)




Total votes: 21
« Created by: Lisa Jones on: Oct 22nd, 2022 at 7:49am »

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Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins (Read 35951 times)
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Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #210 - Oct 20th, 2022 at 1:00pm
 
It's always nice when the 13th Juror endorses one's comments.

Cool

"Justice McCallum took the Jury through what the prosecurors claimed were Lehrmann's four reasons for visiting Parliament House - and the three they alleged were 'lies.

In a recording played in court his (sic) month, Lehrmann had told security he was at parliament to pick up documents.  He later told police, in a recorded interview in 2021, he was there to pick up his keys and to tend to Question Time documents,

Mr Drumgold told the jury Lehrmann's 'freudian slip' came in meetings with his bosses days after the alleged rape when he told them he went to parliament 'to drink whiskey.'

'The prosecution invites you to conclude that, apart from drinking whiskey, all of those were lies,' Justice McCallum told the jury.

Finally, the judge summarised Lehrmann's defence noting he had not given evidence in court, and it was his right not to do so, and the burden of proof remained at all times on the prosecutor, not the accused.

She noted Lehrmann said nothing had happened between himself and Ms Higgins and there was no forensic evidence they had sex - with or without consent.

'If you think it's reasonably possible that nothing happened, you must acquit, she told the jury.'

Chief Justice Lucy McCallum told the jury there was 'no blueprint for life and no blueprint for sexual assault and how a young woman misght respond to sexual assualt, in her summary.

Chief Justice Lucy McCallum, summing up the evidence for the jury on Wednesday said jurors could look at the way Ms Higgins told other people about her alleged rape to assess her credibility.

'We search for consistency....as a badge of honesty,' she said.  'You might consider whether Higgins was consistent in the allegations that she had been sexually assaulted even though her circumstances changed.'

Justice McCallum said a jury 'must be satisfied beyond reasonable doubt the witness is both honest and accurate in the account that she's given.'"

There ya go. The 13th Juror speaks, and that is something neither Counsel can control.

That 13th Juror, the Judge, has judicially dumped on Lehrmann, but in such a way, as the smart ones always do, as not to be overtly disposed one way or the other so as to trigger an appeal because of partiality.

Still, the Jury can ignore what they reckon the Judge thinks.

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Lisa Jones
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Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #211 - Oct 20th, 2022 at 2:40pm
 
Gordon wrote on Oct 20th, 2022 at 8:28am:
mothra wrote on Oct 20th, 2022 at 8:23am:
Gordon wrote on Oct 20th, 2022 at 8:21am:
mothra wrote on Oct 20th, 2022 at 8:15am:
Gordon wrote on Oct 20th, 2022 at 8:13am:
Lisa Jones wrote on Oct 20th, 2022 at 7:58am:
Gordon wrote on Oct 20th, 2022 at 7:39am:
2 drunks bumped uglies.
1 drunk regretted it.


I think both regretted it.

1 was more regretful and more drunk than the other.

Stupid idiots! The pair of them!

IF they were married and/or had children then the damage would have been even more tragic. I've personally witnessed marriages END because of these sorts of work related events.


Do we actually know that?
Alcohol effects people differently.
Some people just black out and pass out, others can outwardly seem ok but have no memory of what they've done.



We know one was prepared to go under oath while the other wasn't.


Legal strategy.


So you're far from cunning mind says.

Other conclusions may be drawn of course, by the more discerning.


Are you ALREADY Brittany level drunk this morning? Been guzzling the Mothras day present?
Everything that happens in a court room is about legal strategy.


😂🤣😆

I think you'll find Mothra is unable to read and comprehend ENTIRE posts.

Monk has the same problem.

Both have substance abuse issues.

My strategy? Just post and keep going. Leave them behind. Where possible...ignore.



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Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #212 - Oct 20th, 2022 at 2:41pm
 
Flip
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Lisa Jones
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Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #213 - Oct 20th, 2022 at 2:53pm
 
Aussie wrote on Oct 20th, 2022 at 1:00pm:
It's always nice when the 13th Juror endorses one's comments.

Cool

"Justice McCallum took the Jury through what the prosecurors claimed were Lehrmann's four reasons for visiting Parliament House - and the three they alleged were 'lies.

In a recording played in court his (sic) month, Lehrmann had told security he was at parliament to pick up documents.  He later told police, in a recorded interview in 2021, he was there to pick up his keys and to tend to Question Time documents,

Mr Drumgold told the jury Lehrmann's 'freudian slip' came in meetings with his bosses days after the alleged rape when he told them he went to parliament 'to drink whiskey.'

'The prosecution invites you to conclude that, apart from drinking whiskey, all of those were lies,' Justice McCallum told the jury.

Finally, the judge summarised Lehrmann's defence noting he had not given evidence in court, and it was his right not to do so, and the burden of proof remained at all times on the prosecutor, not the accused.

She noted Lehrmann said nothing had happened between himself and Ms Higgins and there was no forensic evidence they had sex - with or without consent.

'If you think it's reasonably possible that nothing happened, you must acquit, she told the jury.'

Chief Justice Lucy McCallum told the jury there was 'no blueprint for life and no blueprint for sexual assault and how a young woman misght respond to sexual assualt, in her summary.

Chief Justice Lucy McCallum, summing up the evidence for the jury on Wednesday said jurors could look at the way Ms Higgins told other people about her alleged rape to assess her credibility.

'We search for consistency....as a badge of honesty,' she said.  'You might consider whether Higgins was consistent in the allegations that she had been sexually assaulted even though her circumstances changed.'

Justice McCallum said a jury 'must be satisfied beyond reasonable doubt the witness is both honest and accurate in the account that she's given.'"

There ya go. The 13th Juror speaks, and that is something neither Counsel can control.

That 13th Juror, the Judge, has judicially dumped on Lehrmann, but in such a way, as the smart ones always do, as not to be overtly disposed one way or the other so as to trigger an appeal because of partiality.

Still, the Jury can ignore what they reckon the Judge thinks.



Some observations.

The above post by Aussie is the latest on this.

The judge's remarks are interesting.

I doubt the jury will ignore the judge.

Yet I still don't think this guy will be convicted.

If he doesn't get convicted will he then be able to sue Brittany for defamation etc?

I'm starting to feel very sorry for Brittany 🥺

Where is workplace health and safety mentioned in all this? The alleged rape occurred on workplace premises. Why isn't Brittany suing those who organised the event for failing to provide adequate safety? Is that her next move? Is she waiting to see how this case is determined before she sues her workplace?









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« Last Edit: Oct 20th, 2022 at 2:59pm by Lisa Jones »  

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Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #214 - Oct 20th, 2022 at 3:37pm
 
Quote:
If he doesn't get convicted will he then be able to sue Brittany for defamation etc?


Yes, he can sue, but he will lose.  Burden of proof changes from beyond reasonable doubt to on the balance of probabilities.  He will not sue.  If he does, he cannot avoid the witness box and that is the last place he wants to be.....we already know that.



Quote:
Where is workplace health and safety mentioned in all this? The alleged rape occurred on workplace premises. Why isn't Brittany suing those who organised the event for failing to provide adequate safety? Is that her next move? Is she waiting to see how this case is determined before she sues her workplace?


What event?  There was no event.  There was just some Bar outside Parliament House where she was drinking, and he was there as well.  He shouted her alcohol there.  From there, he took her, pissed, in a Cab to Parliament House.......so he could pick up keys....no, wait....so he could get papers........no, wait.....so he could work on a QT briefing..........no, wait ........ so he could drink whiskey.

I'll bet security arrangements at Parliament House have been altered since this incident.
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Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #215 - Oct 20th, 2022 at 4:09pm
 
Aussie wrote on Oct 20th, 2022 at 3:37pm:
Quote:
If he doesn't get convicted will he then be able to sue Brittany for defamation etc?


Yes, he can sue, but he will lose.  Burden of proof changes from beyond reasonable doubt to on the balance of probabilities.  He will not sue.  If he does, he cannot avoid the witness box and that is the last place he wants to be.....we already know that.



Quote:
Where is workplace health and safety mentioned in all this? The alleged rape occurred on workplace premises. Why isn't Brittany suing those who organised the event for failing to provide adequate safety? Is that her next move? Is she waiting to see how this case is determined before she sues her workplace?


What event?  There was no event.  There was just some Bar outside Parliament House where she was drinking, and he was there as well.  He shouted her alcohol there.  From there, he took her, pissed, in a Cab to Parliament House.......so he could pick up keys....no, wait....so he could get papers........no, wait.....so he could work on a QT briefing..........no, wait ........ so he could drink whiskey.

I'll bet security arrangements at Parliament House have been altered since this incident.


Ok but the alleged rape took place at Parliament House. Yes?

If so, then the issue of security must be addressed.

I agree that security protocols have probably been reviewed and tightened following this alleged event. Even such a review/change must surely attest to the lax measures in place previously which allowed for an alleged rape event to take place. Yes? So again workplace health and safety issues arise which concern employees, contractors, visitors etc.

I'm assuming here that Brittany Higgins was the visitor and the guy was the employee. It matters not but both were on workplace premises when something took place. That something may well not have happened as per Brittany's version of events whilst drunk out of her mind. If this is the case then an innocent guy may well be facing serious criminal charges and a conviction.

On the other hand if Brittany's recollections (whilst under complete intoxication) happen to be the truth then SHE has been assaulted on workplace premises.

Either way that workplace was unsafe! And if there's evidence that security protocols have since been reviewed and changed then I would be arguing the review and change itself is even more evidence of a REACTIVE workplace safety system culture.

One other thing : the guy could well be staying silent in these court proceedings BECAUSE he probably can't remember wtf happened as he himself was intoxicated. 

Aussie : You know me....I fiercely support women and children. I myself have suffered an attack by a work colleague who was intoxicated. The difference in my case was this : I was only 21. I was not drunk! I was able to get away. I should probably add that I wore a bra, underpants AND a freaking corset!

I keep coming back to this : On the one hand Brittany is arguing she was too drunk to move or think or give consent but she was not drunk enough to remember everything that happened? And from what I've read ... HER version of events have changed (no doubt BECAUSE of her high level of intoxication and inability to remember).

Meantime the guy has not sworn anything in court. I think he's done the right thing as he himself isn't able to commit to swearing on oath exactly what happened for the same reason as why Brittany's version of events have kept changing ie he too was intoxicated.

It's a difficult case IMO. And workplace safety system issues must be addressed. Somewhere.

Anyway....we are merely part of the Court of Public Opinion.

I so hope that many lessons are learned by these court proceedings. Meantime 2 people's lives have been shattered and will never be the same. Irrespective of the outcome.







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Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #216 - Oct 20th, 2022 at 4:14pm
 
"'If you think it's reasonably possible that nothing happened, you must acquit, she told the jury.'"

That's the important part....
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Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #217 - Oct 20th, 2022 at 4:14pm
 
You are wrong Lisa Jones...her version of the events in the Minister's suite has never changed.  Even the Judge adverted to that.
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Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #218 - Oct 20th, 2022 at 4:17pm
 
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Oct 20th, 2022 at 4:14pm:
"'If you think it's reasonably possible that nothing happened, you must acquit, she told the jury.'"

That's the important part....


You really are naive Grappler.  I can image right now exactly what facial expression was on the Judge when she said those words which would have had very important ironic tone.

The Judge is saying......"It is bullshit to believe that nothing happened in that Suite that night."
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« Last Edit: Oct 20th, 2022 at 4:29pm by Aussie »  
 
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Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #219 - Oct 20th, 2022 at 4:23pm
 
Aussie wrote on Oct 20th, 2022 at 4:14pm:
You are wrong Lisa Jones...her version of the events in the Minister's suite has never changed.  Even the Judge adverted to that.


Ok.

1. Where did the Judge say this?

2. Meantime when did Brittany come forward after this alleged event took place to offer up her version of events? Was it the next day? A week later? A month later? When?

3. Irrespective of 1 and 2. HOW can a person argue that they were too drunk to move or run or give consent BUT they have no problems at all in remembering what happened and have no qualms in swearing what happened on oath even.  Explain that to me.

Can you?
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Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #220 - Oct 20th, 2022 at 4:34pm
 
Lisa Jones wrote on Oct 20th, 2022 at 4:23pm:
Aussie wrote on Oct 20th, 2022 at 4:14pm:
You are wrong Lisa Jones...her version of the events in the Minister's suite has never changed.  Even the Judge adverted to that.


Ok.

1. Where did the Judge say this?

2. Meantime when did Brittany come forward after this alleged event took place to offer up her version of events? Was it the next day? A week later? A month later? When?

3. Irrespective of 1 and 2. HOW can a person argue that they were too drunk to move or run or give consent BUT they have no problems at all in remembering what happened and have no qualms in swearing what happened on oath even.  Explain that to me.

Can you?


Lisa Jones, I am not going to appraise you of what is readily available to anyone who has been genuinely following the case.

However:

Note this:

Quote:
Chief Justice Lucy McCallum, summing up the evidence for the jury on Wednesday said jurors could look at the way Ms Higgins told other people about her alleged rape to assess her credibility.

'We search for consistency....as a badge of honesty,' she said.  'You might consider whether Higgins was consistent in the allegations that she had been sexually assaulted even though her circumstances changed.'


Lastly, I think the Defence Counsel listed no less than 24 occasions when Higgins reported the incident, the first within three days of the event which allegedly occurred in the wee small hours of a Saturday (Friday night.)

Note also the Judge's comments about there being 'no blueprint' etc for womens' responses in a situation where they have been raped.
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Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #221 - Oct 20th, 2022 at 4:38pm
 
Ok Aussie fair enough but you've not addressed my point 3.

Another observation. Actually it's more of a gripe really ... I'd love to know the full cost of these legal proceedings to the tax payer given we're post Covid19 at a time when Australia is essentially broke and in recession.

All because of 1 penis and 1 vagina <--- and these belonged to alleged educated and professional adults! What a shame and a disgrace the pair of them are IMO! I personally don't believe this is a black and white case. They're both grey characters. The issue at present is trying to determine which one is slightly more grey.

And for that answer ... the tax payer will end up coughing up a lot of money (during a recession on the back of being bankrupted by Covid19).i




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Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #222 - Oct 20th, 2022 at 4:57pm
 
If he is convicted, I'd bet he'll win on appeal.
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Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #223 - Oct 20th, 2022 at 5:09pm
 
MeisterEckhart wrote on Oct 20th, 2022 at 4:57pm:
If he is convicted, I'd bet he'll win on appeal.


I'll take that bet.
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Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #224 - Oct 20th, 2022 at 5:14pm
 
Aussie wrote on Oct 20th, 2022 at 5:09pm:
MeisterEckhart wrote on Oct 20th, 2022 at 4:57pm:
If he is convicted, I'd bet he'll win on appeal.


I'll take that bet.

OK, well you're a lawyer.

I put this case in terms of public profile up there with Pell, who was wrongly convicted as it turned out.

What are the odds of a conviction?

What are the odds of his winning an appeal if convicted?
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