Australian Politics Forum - Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins

Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #45 - Oct 15^th, 2022 at 10:45pm

Redmond Neck wrote on Oct 15^th, 2022 at 6:36am:

I think her rape claim has been given a lot more credability by the evidence that she was found naked on a couch by a security guard who went to check on her welfare !!

A couple of hours later.... what kind of security check is that? Look at the sequence of events. TWO checks turned up nothing, even when one of the security staff actually went to her.

The security guards detected nothing related to sexual activity......... Brittany herself said ... long afterwards ... that she could smell on herself what had happened... the guards on two occasions detected nothing.

There was nothing in the original reports to police and in interviews with superiors to suggest that.

If They Had, Under ACT Law Which Governs General Crime etc Within Parliament House, Detected That A Drunken Woman Had Had Sex - Their Next Action Should Have Been To Make A Written Report And Contact Police. Under ACT Law at that time, a drunken woman could not give consent, and thus if sex was detected, there was a crime scene.

Where is there ANY written report of the activity on that night?

As I said about the two female security staff (not guards) - SOTH - Sheilas Over Their Heads... and basking in a prime security job in a prestigious location.... sit down money for sheilas.

The cleaner next morning found nothing unusual.. just a normal clean. That doesn't preclude the use of a condom.... but ... lead on, McDuff ......

Tell us more ...............

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« Last Edit: Oct 15^th, 2022 at 10:55pm by Grappler Truth Teller Feller »

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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UnSubRocky

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Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #46 - Oct 15^th, 2022 at 11:28pm

Redmond Neck wrote on Oct 15^th, 2022 at 6:36am:

I think her rape claim has been given a lot more credability by the evidence that she was found naked on a couch by a security guard who went to check on her welfare !!

She was so drunk that she could not fight off an attacker? Where are his defensive wounds? Bruises from punches or slaps?

And the security guard's reaction to finding Higgins naked on a couch -- "Oh my god?". Even the security guard's interview seemed to give the impression that she was lying about what she saw.

Higgins, if she was laying naked or near naked on a couch might well have come undressed after Lehrmann had left the office. I won't speculate why. And Lehrmann might well have left the office to let Higgins sleep it off and find her own way home. I have no reason to believe that the relationship between the two was amicable. Higgins was alleged to make claims that Lehrmann was demanding.

I know it is pseudopsychology to use body language as evidence. However, watching footage from the news articles, Higgins seems really smug leaving the court. Lehrmann seems restrained with anger at the allegations.

A judge will have to favour Lehrmann with the presumption of innocence. Higgins made too many mistakes in the lead up to the trial. Going to the media instead of the police to make statements of her allegations will work against her. Taking so long to report the alleged rape, another impediment. And no physical evidence of sexual intercourse being the main factor that will rule in Lehrmann's favour.

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At this stage...

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #47 - Oct 15^th, 2022 at 11:47pm

UnSubRocky wrote on Oct 15^th, 2022 at 11:28pm:

Redmond Neck wrote on Oct 15^th, 2022 at 6:36am:

I think her rape claim has been given a lot more credability by the evidence that she was found naked on a couch by a security guard who went to check on her welfare !!

She was so drunk that she could not fight off an attacker? Where are his defensive wounds? Bruises from punches or slaps?

And the security guard's reaction to finding Higgins naked on a couch -- "Oh my god?". Even the security guard's interview seemed to give the impression that she was lying about what she saw.

Higgins, if she was laying naked or near naked on a couch might well have come undressed after Lehrmann had left the office. I won't speculate why. And Lehrmann might well have left the office to let Higgins sleep it off and find her own way home. I have no reason to believe that the relationship between the two was amicable. Higgins was alleged to make claims that Lehrmann was demanding.

I know it is pseudopsychology to use body language as evidence. However, watching footage from the news articles, Higgins seems really smug leaving the court. Lehrmann seems restrained with anger at the allegations.

A judge will have to favour Lehrmann with the presumption of innocence. Higgins made too many mistakes in the lead up to the trial. Going to the media instead of the police to make statements of her allegations will work against her. Taking so long to report the alleged rape, another impediment. And no physical evidence of sexual intercourse being the main factor that will rule in Lehrmann's favour.

From the original reports - the security guards had no 'oh, my god' moments.... the first one some forty or more minutes after Lehrmann left the premises and she merely opened the door and observed that Higgins was 'partially naked' on the couch..

The second one hours later at around 7am, found Higgins asleep on the couch and naked.

On neither occasion did the security staff consider there was any need for action apart from letting her sleep it off.... on neither occasion did they detect any evidence of sexual contact having taken place, and their reports, if any, show nothing of concern.

Now I have already discussed the dereliction of duty of the security staff on that night.... but one thing remains clear.... on neither check did they consider that Ms Higgins was in any state of distress, and on neither occasion did they consider that anything had occurred that might be in breach of ACT law... which one would assume they would be familiar with.

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Aussie

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Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #48 - Oct 16^th, 2022 at 9:35am

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Oct 15^th, 2022 at 10:38pm:

Aussie wrote on Oct 15^th, 2022 at 3:03pm:

AusGeoff wrote on Oct 15^th, 2022 at 11:50am:

In my humble opinion, I reckon she's full of shyte, rather than semen.

There's not one iota of even circumstantial evidence that Higgins was
raped. The "evidence" as it stands is the CCTV footage showing her
and Bruce Lehrmann entering the minister's office, and the security
guard later finding her naked (but not distressed). That's it—absolutely
no evidence of any sexual penetration. Other than, of course, Higgins's
vague and drunken memory—or her two-year-delayed fabrication?

Incorrect.

Lay out your case and your time line .........

After the event... it starts off...

"I awoke with him on top of me."

Now lay out for us the progression of her story..... just so we understand the truth here.... for a friend.

You lazy prick. Okay, I'll do you home work for you.

Link.

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #49 - Oct 16^th, 2022 at 11:17am

Aussie wrote on Oct 16^th, 2022 at 9:35am:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Oct 15^th, 2022 at 10:38pm:

Aussie wrote on Oct 15^th, 2022 at 3:03pm:

AusGeoff wrote on Oct 15^th, 2022 at 11:50am:

In my humble opinion, I reckon she's full of shyte, rather than semen.

There's not one iota of even circumstantial evidence that Higgins was
raped. The "evidence" as it stands is the CCTV footage showing her
and Bruce Lehrmann entering the minister's office, and the security
guard later finding her naked (but not distressed). That's it—absolutely
no evidence of any sexual penetration. Other than, of course, Higgins's
vague and drunken memory—or her two-year-delayed fabrication?

Incorrect.

Lay out your case and your time line .........

After the event... it starts off...

"I awoke with him on top of me."

Now lay out for us the progression of her story..... just so we understand the truth here.... for a friend.

You lazy prick. Okay, I'll do you home work for you.

Link.

Very good - nearly as good the the ones I've submitted over and over...

Issues arise with the:-

"Incident occurs" .... No allegation was made until later, a trial is in progress, there was no incident - thee was an alleged incident. The paper should not use the term:- 'Incident occurs'.

Clearly if a breach of security took place requiring the sacking of a staff member, the security staff did not do their job, as previously.

The length of time taken to do a well-being check on Higgins means staff had no real concerns. We've been over that.

Murky as to exactly when the allegation was made - i.e how many days later.

Why would one staff member be sacked for a security breach and not the other?

Not much of a job all round.

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« Last Edit: Oct 16^th, 2022 at 11:26am by Grappler Truth Teller Feller »

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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Aussie

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Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #50 - Oct 16^th, 2022 at 1:22pm

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Oct 16^th, 2022 at 11:17am:

Aussie wrote on Oct 16^th, 2022 at 9:35am:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Oct 15^th, 2022 at 10:38pm:

Aussie wrote on Oct 15^th, 2022 at 3:03pm:

AusGeoff wrote on Oct 15^th, 2022 at 11:50am:

In my humble opinion, I reckon she's full of shyte, rather than semen.

There's not one iota of even circumstantial evidence that Higgins was
raped. The "evidence" as it stands is the CCTV footage showing her
and Bruce Lehrmann entering the minister's office, and the security
guard later finding her naked (but not distressed). That's it—absolutely
no evidence of any sexual penetration. Other than, of course, Higgins's
vague and drunken memory—or her two-year-delayed fabrication?

Incorrect.

Lay out your case and your time line .........

After the event... it starts off...

"I awoke with him on top of me."

Now lay out for us the progression of her story..... just so we understand the truth here.... for a friend.

You lazy prick. Okay, I'll do you home work for you.

Link.

Very good - nearly as good the the ones I've submitted over and over...

Issues arise with the:-

"Incident occurs" .... No allegation was made until later, a trial is in progress, there was no incident - thee was an alleged incident. The paper should not use the term:- 'Incident occurs'.

Clearly if a breach of security took place requiring the sacking of a staff member, the security staff did not do their job, as previously.

The length of time taken to do a well-being check on Higgins means staff had no real concerns. We've been over that.

Murky as to exactly when the allegation was made - i.e how many days later.

Why would one staff member be sacked for a security breach and not the other?

Not much of a job all round.

So...what happened to the ALLEGED two years you were quibbling about?

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Belgarion

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Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #51 - Oct 16^th, 2022 at 1:46pm

The accused will be found not guilty. Not necessarily because he did not have sex with Ms Higgins, consensual or not, but because the way the whole incident has been handled has been abysmal from the start. The incompetence of the security personnel, the lack of action from the Ministers office, the medias biased reporting, and the actions, or lack thereof, of Ms Higgins herself, have all assured that the verdict will be not guilty.

Of course the damage done to the accused's reputation can't be repaired. Will he sue Ms Higgins and the media?

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Aussie

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Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #52 - Oct 16^th, 2022 at 1:48pm

Belgarion wrote on Oct 16^th, 2022 at 1:46pm:

The accused will be found not guilty. Not necessarily because he did not have sex with Ms Higgins, consensual or not, but because the way the whole incident has been handled has been abysmal from the start. The incompetence of the security personnel, the lack of action from the Ministers office, the medias biased reporting, and the actions, or lack thereof, of Ms Higgins herself, have all assured that the verdict will be not guilty.

Of course the damage done to the accused's reputation can't be repaired. Will he sue Ms Higgins and the media?

If he does (assuming he is acquitted) he will fail abysmally.

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 83525 Proud pre-1850's NO Voter Gender:	Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins Reply #53 - Oct 16^th, 2022 at 1:55pm There is a world of difference between a false accusation and a wrongful accusation. One is deliberate - the other a combination of events without human agency.
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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #54 - Oct 16^th, 2022 at 2:00pm

Aussie wrote on Oct 16^th, 2022 at 1:22pm:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Oct 16^th, 2022 at 11:17am:

Aussie wrote on Oct 16^th, 2022 at 9:35am:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Oct 15^th, 2022 at 10:38pm:

Aussie wrote on Oct 15^th, 2022 at 3:03pm:

AusGeoff wrote on Oct 15^th, 2022 at 11:50am:

In my humble opinion, I reckon she's full of shyte, rather than semen.

There's not one iota of even circumstantial evidence that Higgins was
raped. The "evidence" as it stands is the CCTV footage showing her
and Bruce Lehrmann entering the minister's office, and the security
guard later finding her naked (but not distressed). That's it—absolutely
no evidence of any sexual penetration. Other than, of course, Higgins's
vague and drunken memory—or her two-year-delayed fabrication?

Incorrect.

Lay out your case and your time line .........

After the event... it starts off...

"I awoke with him on top of me."

Now lay out for us the progression of her story..... just so we understand the truth here.... for a friend.

You lazy prick. Okay, I'll do you home work for you.

Link.

Very good - nearly as good the the ones I've submitted over and over...

Issues arise with the:-

"Incident occurs" .... No allegation was made until later, a trial is in progress, there was no incident - thee was an alleged incident. The paper should not use the term:- 'Incident occurs'.

Clearly if a breach of security took place requiring the sacking of a staff member, the security staff did not do their job, as previously.

The length of time taken to do a well-being check on Higgins means staff had no real concerns. We've been over that.

Murky as to exactly when the allegation was made - i.e how many days later.

Why would one staff member be sacked for a security breach and not the other?

Not much of a job all round.

So...what happened to the ALLEGED two years you were quibbling about?

For the illiterati amongst us - AusGeoff said two years - I never mentioned it. The issue is that any complaint was delayed - and I would suggest that Geoff's interpretation is the 'new' re-modeled story that is being presented to create the worst possible interpretation of the alleged events.

As before - the original statement was ' he was on top of her' - now that has been amended to he was inside her, she could smell what had happened to her, which nobody else could and for which there is no evidence left behind on the couch, and that he raped her in that exact word.

So what it comes down to is this - what did she mean in her statement days later that 'he was on top of her'?? She didn't mention penetration until the court case began.

I smell coaching. Aussie - you KNOW the prosecution will twist and distort and just alter a tiny little word or so to present the worst possible scenario in the hope that will over-ride the lack of hard evidence. What's a little word here or there or a little coached supporting statement....

(lead, lead) "So when you say he was on top of you.... did that mean he was inside you and raping you?"

"Oh - oh... yeah... yeah..."

"You have to be sure otherwise the case will fail... are you absolutely certain?"

"Yes - Yes, I am now that you remind me!"

"So did you smell anything that might indicate sex had taken place? Think about it now...."

"Well - I was pretty drunk...."

"Think carefully - the case depends on it...."

"Oh - well... oh yes, I smelt raunch.... I know it happened , just needed a little memory jogging.. I was pretty out of it ..."

"Did the security staff say anything about that smell?"

"Not that I recall..."

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« Last Edit: Oct 16^th, 2022 at 2:07pm by Grappler Truth Teller Feller »

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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Aussie Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 38507 Gender:	Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins Reply #55 - Oct 16^th, 2022 at 3:15pm Tel me more about this raunch smell. Full details so I understand what you are babbling about.
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Gordon Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20465 Gordon Gender:	Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins Reply #56 - Oct 16^th, 2022 at 3:30pm Aussie wrote on Oct 16^th, 2022 at 3:15pm: Tel me more about this raunch smell. Full details so I understand what you are babbling about. Not a fan myself
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AusGeoff

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Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #57 - Oct 16^th, 2022 at 4:16pm

Aussie wrote on Oct 15^th, 2022 at 3:03pm:

AusGeoff wrote on Oct 15^th, 2022 at 11:50am:

...Other than, of course, Higgins's vague and drunken memory—or her two-year-delayed fabrication?

Incorrect.

I was referring more to the two-year "gap" from the occurrence of the
alleged rape, to Higgins going public with her claim.

Quote:

On 15 February 2021, Liberal Party junior staffer Brittany Higgins alleged
to two media outlets—news.com.au and The Project—that she had been
raped late at night on 22 March 2019 in then-defence industry Minister
Senator Linda Reynolds' office in the ministerial wing of Parliament House
by a male colleague, who was not named.

Why her sudden change of heart? Why wait for two years to go public?
Who pushed her to do this, and why? Was it Lisa Wilkinson in order to
get an exclusive interview?

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« Last Edit: Oct 16^th, 2022 at 6:32pm by AusGeoff »

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Aussie

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Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #58 - Oct 16^th, 2022 at 4:22pm

AusGeoff wrote on Oct 16^th, 2022 at 4:16pm:

Aussie wrote on Oct 15^th, 2022 at 3:03pm:

AusGeoff wrote on Oct 15^th, 2022 at 11:50am:

...Other than, of course, Higgins's vague and drunken memory—or her two-year-delayed fabrication?

Incorrect.

I was referring more to the two-year "gap" from the occurrence of the
alleged rape, to Higgins going public with her claim.

Quote:

On 15 February 2021, Liberal Party junior staffer Brittany Higgins alleged
to two media outlets—news.com.au and The Project—that she had been
raped late at night on 22 March 2019 in then-defence industry Minister
Senator Linda Reynolds' office in the ministerial wing of Parliament House
by a male colleague, who was not named.

Why her sudden change of heart? Why wait for two years to go public?
Who pushed here to do this, and why? Was it Lisa Wilkinson in order to
get an exclusive interview?

I am not sure I understand why that (going public) matters much. She had complained of the alleged rape within a couple of days. Good enough to meet the 'recent complaint' hearsay exception.

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 83525 Proud pre-1850's NO Voter Gender:	Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins Reply #59 - Oct 16^th, 2022 at 4:25pm Aussie wrote on Oct 16^th, 2022 at 3:15pm: Tel me more about this raunch smell. Full details so I understand what you are babbling about. Olfactorily challenged are we?
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Poll
Question: Will there be a conviction?
Yes 3 (14.3%) No 17 (81.0%) Not sure 1 (4.8%) Total votes: 21 « Created by: Lisa Jones on: Oct 22^nd, 2022 at 7:49am »