Australian Politics Forum - Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins

Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #585 - Oct 27^th, 2022 at 2:12pm

Aussie wrote on Oct 27^th, 2022 at 1:51pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Oct 27^th, 2022 at 1:49pm:

Aussie wrote on Oct 27^th, 2022 at 1:33pm:

Quote:

Under the first condition, he is not allowed to contact Ms Higgins, her partner David Sharaz, Kelly Higgins or Matthew Higgins.

The second condition states he must also inform AFP officers of his residential address or if his residential address changes.

The third condition will see Mr Lehrmann required to inform the AFP if he plans to travel overseas prior to the trial starting.

This must be done at least two weeks prior to leaving the country.

That reads like standard conditions given the seriousness of the charge and the national hype.

Don't go near her (as if he would).

Don't go into hiding.

Don't skip the country (has his passport been surrendered?)

But...those conditions were never part of his bail before today. Do you agree, or must I prove that as well?

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #586 - Oct 27^th, 2022 at 2:16pm

Aussie wrote on Oct 27^th, 2022 at 1:51pm:

But...those conditions were never part of his bail before today. Do you agree, or must I prove that as well?

Was the judge not just acting with an abundance of caution given the profile of this case?

Who knows what his mental state is? And now he must endure another 4 months of this.

If he skipped due to a fit of extreme anxiety, what would the media report about the judge?

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Bobby.

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Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #587 - Oct 27^th, 2022 at 2:17pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on Oct 27^th, 2022 at 2:09pm:

Bobby. wrote on Oct 27^th, 2022 at 2:04pm:

I don't agree with our judicial system.
He should also face questions.

So you don't agree with the right to remain silent, then. Just like Stalin.

How would you plan on getting information out of someone? A lead pipe or electricals on their genitals?

If you think the police and the DPP are your friends if you're in their sights, well... Buona fortuna if you just happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Come on -
some simple questions -
"where were you on the night of the alleged rape?"
" did you put it in? "

That's hardly Stalin with his henchmen - what an exaggeration designed to deceive.

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Aussie

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Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #588 - Oct 27^th, 2022 at 2:19pm

Bobby. wrote on Oct 27^th, 2022 at 2:04pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Oct 27^th, 2022 at 1:57pm:

Bobby. wrote on Oct 27^th, 2022 at 1:52pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Oct 27^th, 2022 at 1:46pm:

Bobby. wrote on Oct 27^th, 2022 at 1:37pm:

Brittany Higgins,

Quote:

I was required to surrender:
my telephones, my passwords, messages, photos, and my data to him.

He was not required to produce his:
telephone, his passwords,messages, photos or his data.

Anyway, so after she beared her soul to the media, Higgins was non-plussed by the justice system which is structured to test the veracity of her claims via cross-examination.

Even TV court dramas demonstrate how that works.

What, exactly, did this articulate and intelligent woman not understand about the process prior to stepping into the witness box?

But he couldn't even be asked one question.

This is injustice.

You and Stalin would have got on.

He loved a fair trial, so long as everyone was compelled to give evidence against themselves and someone got shot at the end of it.

I don't agree with our judicial system.
He should also face questions.

I think you have to view her comments in light of reality.

I have been posting about it here for many days.

It is all about credibility in the end. She was scrutinised under oath in the box....closely cross-examined, and in my opinion, held up extremely well.

As is his right (about which she comments as a lay person in terms of asymmetrics) he did not do any of that.

So, as I have been saying for days, ultimately, the jury has to choose between the two...one asserting an act under oath and the other denying that act....NOT under oath by his own choice.

She thus wins the credibility stakes for me, and I suspect most of the Jury also took that view, but were being subverted by at least ONE juror who was pushing the Grappler barrow about statistics concerning false rape complaints, and ergo, hers must be among them.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #589 - Oct 27^th, 2022 at 2:28pm

Bobby. wrote on Oct 27^th, 2022 at 2:17pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Oct 27^th, 2022 at 2:09pm:

Bobby. wrote on Oct 27^th, 2022 at 2:04pm:

I don't agree with our judicial system.
He should also face questions.

So you don't agree with the right to remain silent, then. Just like Stalin.

How would you plan on getting information out of someone? A lead pipe or electricals on their genitals?

If you think the police and the DPP are your friends if you're in their sights, well... Buona fortuna if you just happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Come on -
some simple questions -
"where were you on the night of the alleged rape?"
" did you put it in? "

That's hardly Stalin with his henchmen - what an exaggeration designed to deceive.

"where were you on the night of the alleged rape?" - I can't recall.
" did you put it in? " - given that it didn't happen?

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #590 - Oct 27^th, 2022 at 2:31pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on Oct 27^th, 2022 at 2:28pm:

Bobby. wrote on Oct 27^th, 2022 at 2:17pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Oct 27^th, 2022 at 2:09pm:

Bobby. wrote on Oct 27^th, 2022 at 2:04pm:

I don't agree with our judicial system.
He should also face questions.

So you don't agree with the right to remain silent, then. Just like Stalin.

How would you plan on getting information out of someone? A lead pipe or electricals on their genitals?

If you think the police and the DPP are your friends if you're in their sights, well... Buona fortuna if you just happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Come on -
some simple questions -
"where were you on the night of the alleged rape?"
" did you put it in? "

That's hardly Stalin with his henchmen - what an exaggeration designed to deceive.

"where were you on the night of the alleged rape?" - I can't recall.
" did you put it in? " - given that it didn't happen?

More to the point, read up on the Andrew Mallard case if you want to see how far some bad cops will go to secure the conviction of an innocent man.

Worse than their fixation on setting up and convicting an innocent man (by coaxing him to place himself at the murder scene), with the heat off him, the actual perpetrator went on to murder again.

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Aussie

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Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #591 - Oct 27^th, 2022 at 2:42pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on Oct 27^th, 2022 at 2:31pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Oct 27^th, 2022 at 2:28pm:

Bobby. wrote on Oct 27^th, 2022 at 2:17pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Oct 27^th, 2022 at 2:09pm:

Bobby. wrote on Oct 27^th, 2022 at 2:04pm:

I don't agree with our judicial system.
He should also face questions.

So you don't agree with the right to remain silent, then. Just like Stalin.

How would you plan on getting information out of someone? A lead pipe or electricals on their genitals?

If you think the police and the DPP are your friends if you're in their sights, well... Buona fortuna if you just happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Come on -
some simple questions -
"where were you on the night of the alleged rape?"
" did you put it in? "

That's hardly Stalin with his henchmen - what an exaggeration designed to deceive.

"where were you on the night of the alleged rape?" - I can't recall.
" did you put it in? " - given that it didn't happen?

More to the point, read up on the Andrew Mallard case if you want to see how far some bad cops will go to secure the conviction of an innocent man.

Worse than their fixation on setting up and convicting an innocent man (by coaxing him to place himself at the murder scene), with the heat off him, the actual perpetrator went on to murder again.

Nah, totally irrelevant to this case. Lehrmann does not assert he was stitched up by Coppers.

That is a silly red herring.

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #592 - Oct 27^th, 2022 at 2:42pm

"I suspect most of the Jury also took that view, but were being subverted by at least ONE juror who was pushing the Grappler barrow about statistics concerning false rape complaints, and ergo, hers must be among them."

Your words, not mine.I'd say it was more the other way around.... and again - he had no obligation to take the stand but could let a flimsy case rest on its own merits.

Knowing that there is a significant risk of false rape charges does not affect consideration of the facts..... you really find it hard to stay on track, don't you?

Unlike you, myself and most jurors are capable of drawing the distinction between assumptions and facts. Your entire basis for conviction is on non-facts related to the case itself... the simple fact is that there is only her totally drunken recollection to suggest anything happened. ON top of that, she was not credible in her recollection of the dress etc.

Maybe in Queensland they have aircraft carriers that fly....

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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MeisterEckhart

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Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #593 - Oct 27^th, 2022 at 2:46pm

Here's something that should be jarring to a reasonable person.

Rape is a very serious crime and a complaint to the police must be made as soon as possible and all the evidence for it must be surrendered to the police.

Not tucked in a bag (for later), not washed, not thrown away - that's the first insult that Higgins has inflicted on the cause of rape victims.

The second is to turn it into a media circus with high-profile media vampires swooping in to suck the blood out of the story for their own benefit.

The third is to excuse her own gross lack of judgement because she was a confused little thing who should be forgiven for destroying evidence because she wanted to 'reclaim her agency' (what does that even mean?).

The fourth is to signal that prolonged reputation destruction is better than (or as good as) a conviction.

The fifth is blaming the justice system after she'd hindered it in the first place.

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Bobby. Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 102349 Melbourne Gender:	Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins Reply #594 - Oct 27^th, 2022 at 2:48pm To Aussie - a legal opinion - The Judge told the Jury 17 times not to introduce their own evidence. Why hasn't the defiant juror been sent to jail for contempt of court?
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Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #595 - Oct 27^th, 2022 at 2:49pm

Aussie wrote on Oct 27^th, 2022 at 2:42pm:

Nah, totally irrelevant to this case. Lehrmann does not assert he was stitched up by Coppers.

That is a silly red herring.

It's what happens when the right to remain silent is withheld - stitch-ups and forced confessions gain implied procedural legitimacy.

Are you a criminal lawyer?

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Aussie

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Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #596 - Oct 27^th, 2022 at 2:50pm

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Oct 27^th, 2022 at 2:42pm:

"I suspect most of the Jury also took that view, but were being subverted by at least ONE juror who was pushing the Grappler barrow about statistics concerning false rape complaints, and ergo, hers must be among them."

Your words, not mine.I'd say it was more the other way around.... and again - he had no obligation to take the stand but could let a flimsy case rest on its own merits.

Knowing that there is a significant risk of false rape charges does not affect consideration of the facts..... you really find it hard to stay on track, don't you?

Unlike you, myself and most jurors are capable of drawing the distinction between assumptions and facts. Your entire basis for conviction is on non-facts related to the case itself... the simple fact is that there is only her totally drunken recollection to suggest anything happened. ON top of that, she was not credible in her recollection of the dress etc.

Maybe in Queensland they have aircraft carriers that fly....

No, Queenslanders would never even consider that an aircraft carrier could fly, or suggest it could in a discussion.

Yep, she stuffed up on the dress, and had to front it. She did...in the box. Admitted she fuqqed up. Straight up...yep...'I fuqqed up on that matter.'

Quote:

Your entire basis for conviction is on non-facts related to the case itself

Name them.

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Aussie

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Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #597 - Oct 27^th, 2022 at 3:02pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on Oct 27^th, 2022 at 2:49pm:

Aussie wrote on Oct 27^th, 2022 at 2:42pm:

Nah, totally irrelevant to this case. Lehrmann does not assert he was stitched up by Coppers.

That is a silly red herring.

It's what happens when the right to remain silent is withheld - stitch-ups and forced confessions gain implied procedural legitimacy.

Are you a criminal lawyer?

I am retired.

However, for more than 15 years, all I practiced was criminal law...every working day of the week.

I had the most successful criminal law career in Queensland, in many places in the State, outside Brisbane.

Although I never bothered calling myself a Barrister, I did ALL my own Court work, other than in cases where I determined there was a need for a more experienced practitioner than myself.

I gave it up when one day I realised I had become what I fought against when I started out...just part of the system...sausage meat in....sausages out. I abandoned that criminal law practice one day when I walked into the Office and asked my Secretary to give me the file for that day's Court case, and thought to myself...."Fuq Aussie, it might be just a day's work for you, but it is the 'life' of your client at stake, remember!"

I had become dehumanised to what was happening to people.

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Aussie

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Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #598 - Oct 27^th, 2022 at 3:05pm

Bobby. wrote on Oct 27^th, 2022 at 2:48pm:

To Aussie - a legal opinion -

The Judge told the Jury 17 times not to introduce their own evidence.

Why hasn't the defiant juror been sent to jail for contempt of court?

Because it is not a contempt of court. The Law needs to change on this matter. It is turning a blind eye to modern reality in access to information, and social media.

Maybe it has to go back to the (very expensive) days of jury sequestration as the norm.

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Bobby.

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Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #599 - Oct 27^th, 2022 at 3:10pm

Aussie wrote on Oct 27^th, 2022 at 3:05pm:

Bobby. wrote on Oct 27^th, 2022 at 2:48pm:

To Aussie - a legal opinion -

The Judge told the Jury 17 times not to introduce their own evidence.

Why hasn't the defiant juror been sent to jail for contempt of court?

Because it is not a contempt of court. The Law needs to change on this matter. It is turning a blind eye to modern reality in access to information, and social media.

Maybe it has to go back to the (very expensive) days of jury sequestration as the norm.

Wow - it sounds like contempt of court. Embarrassed

Locking a jury up? - yes very expensive for hotel bills.
( and then there is hotel WiFi for laptops and phones)

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Question: Will there be a conviction?
Yes 3 (14.3%) No 17 (81.0%) Not sure 1 (4.8%) Total votes: 21 « Created by: Lisa Jones on: Oct 22^nd, 2022 at 7:49am »