Australian Politics Forum - racism, sexism = aboriginal 'culture'

Frank

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Re: racism, sexism = aboriginal 'culture'
Reply #180 - Jan 6^th, 2023 at 7:00pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 6^th, 2023 at 6:26pm:

Frank wrote on Jan 6^th, 2023 at 3:33pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 6^th, 2023 at 2:56pm:

Frank wrote on Jan 6^th, 2023 at 2:47pm:

Reason.

ah-ha, I see, so ...

0n what basis do you propose we examine the reasons for various opposing political philosophies /ideologies....?

Answer: "reason".

Oh dear, like a dog chasing its tail....

Don't be so stupid. It is not the dog chasing its tail, it's you being an idiotic parrot who never stops to think for a minute because you have mindless idiocies to parrot.

Oh dear....the usual prelude....now let's see what you've got in the way of rational argument:

Quote:

Only reason can tell you ANYTHING about the brain.

Mein Gott, you failed in the very first sentence.

Knowledge about the physiology of the brain can only be gained by scientific research and discovery.

You could sit about forever 'reasoning', and never learn anything about the brain's physiology, as the reasoning of the ancients was so confined.

You are in effect saying the brain's physiology - and associated unconscious motivations alongside conscious reasoning - has no effect on reasoning, an obvious absurdity. Only humans with a cortex ("thinking") brain are capable of reasoning.

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Political, ideological, philosophical, aesthetic, literary, medical, neighbourhood, siblings' or lovers' disputes existed long before brain structures were examined and theorised about,

Exactly, as I already noted above.

Quote:

as did every other kind of dispute, disagreement, theory about government, colours, angels, heavenly bodies, diseases, the afterlife, morals, what the moon is made of or what is on its other side, the secret lives of butterflies, Atlantis, etc, etc, etc.

yes, moving along (please).... waiting for the punch line....

Quote:

If different ideas about politics and brain physiology are all about brain physiology...

Another error: oppositional political ideologies exist BECAUSE of human brain physiology and the resulting ability to think independently, possessed by humans; they are not ABOUT brain physiology itself, they are about (reasoning about) the (conflicting) ideologies.

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- then everything is determined by brain physiology.

well, the human condition - naturally competitive (inter alia, owing to the individual's ego), yes.

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But how do you examine brain physiology? At the light of reason.

With an electron microscope....employing reason, eg, theory, as well as induction and deduction.

You are your own parody.

Reason-the power of the mind to think in a logical way, to understand and have opinions, etc.
Only human beings are capable of reason (= of thinking in a logical way, etc.).
to lose your reason (= become mentally ill)
the conflict between faith and reason
OED

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thegreatdivide

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Re: racism, sexism = aboriginal 'culture'
Reply #181 - Jan 7^th, 2023 at 10:18am

Frank wrote on Jan 6^th, 2023 at 7:00pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 6^th, 2023 at 6:26pm:

Frank wrote on Jan 6^th, 2023 at 3:33pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 6^th, 2023 at 2:56pm:

Frank wrote on Jan 6^th, 2023 at 2:47pm:

Reason.

ah-ha, I see, so ...

0n what basis do you propose we examine the reasons for various opposing political philosophies /ideologies....?

Answer: "reason".

Oh dear, like a dog chasing its tail....

Don't be so stupid. It is not the dog chasing its tail, it's you being an idiotic parrot who never stops to think for a minute because you have mindless idiocies to parrot.

Oh dear....the usual prelude....now let's see what you've got in the way of rational argument:

Quote:

Only reason can tell you ANYTHING about the brain.

Mein Gott, you failed in the very first sentence.

Knowledge about the physiology of the brain can only be gained by scientific research and discovery.

You could sit about forever 'reasoning', and never learn anything about the brain's physiology, as the reasoning of the ancients was so confined.

You are in effect saying the brain's physiology - and associated unconscious motivations alongside conscious reasoning - has no effect on reasoning, an obvious absurdity. Only humans with a cortex ("thinking") brain are capable of reasoning.

Quote:

Political, ideological, philosophical, aesthetic, literary, medical, neighbourhood, siblings' or lovers' disputes existed long before brain structures were examined and theorised about,

Exactly, as I already noted above.

Quote:

as did every other kind of dispute, disagreement, theory about government, colours, angels, heavenly bodies, diseases, the afterlife, morals, what the moon is made of or what is on its other side, the secret lives of butterflies, Atlantis, etc, etc, etc.

yes, moving along (please).... waiting for the punch line....

Quote:

If different ideas about politics and brain physiology are all about brain physiology...

Another error: oppositional political ideologies exist BECAUSE of human brain physiology and the resulting ability to think independently, possessed by humans; they are not ABOUT brain physiology itself, they are about (reasoning about) the (conflicting) ideologies.

Quote:

- then everything is determined by brain physiology.

well, the human condition - naturally competitive (inter alia, owing to the individual's ego), yes.

Quote:

But how do you examine brain physiology? At the light of reason.

With an electron microscope....employing reason, eg, theory, as well as induction and deduction.

You are your own parody.

moving along....

Quote:

Reason-the power of the mind to think in a logical way, to understand and have opinions, etc.

yes, but you are ignoring unconscious motivation and the UNREASONABLE demands of the competitive ego, eg, I'll kill you if you get in my way, etc etc.

Quote:

Only human beings are capable of reason (= of thinking in a logical way, etc.).

Correct, but again, much of the time humans are NOT reasonable (do not exercise their capacity to reason).

eg Putin deciding he must invade Ukraine, because Peter the Great did it in 18th century (taking Crimea from the Ottoman Empire).

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to lose your reason (= become mentally ill)

The error there is equating thinking with rationality.

You still think whether you are mentally ill or not.

Quote:

the conflict between faith and reason
OED

Faith is accepting a doctrine without evidence, usually (or never?) NOT reasonable.

Back to real political disputes:

Sky host Gary Hardgrave says (re the voice)
"government should unite, not divide the people".

But he forgets the way to unite people is to guarantee above poverty participation for all.

Mundine helpfully chimes in:

"The Aboriginal people, the Australian people, will be the ones that suffer,” Mr Mundine told Sky News host Gary Hardgrave.

“We’ve got to pay for (the voice) as Australian citizens and … it will not fix the education problems, it will not fix the economic problems … that needs to be done.”

My observation: he's right.

Meanwhile Price claims "race should have no place in the constitution".

My observation: she's also right...other than a reference to prior occupation of the continent.

but both of them have no idea how to "fix the economic problems" ....

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: racism, sexism = aboriginal 'culture'
Reply #182 - Jan 7^th, 2023 at 10:25am

How many times have you been told that your Yadda-esque responses make it unlikely anyone is going to bother to respond to every point you try to make? Those are only your views anyway - you refute nothing since you offer no support, and harp on the same unsupported nonsense over and over - so people just don't bother.

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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thegreatdivide

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Re: racism, sexism = aboriginal 'culture'
Reply #183 - Jan 7^th, 2023 at 11:01am

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jan 7^th, 2023 at 10:25am:

How many times have you been told that your Yadda-esque responses make it unlikely anyone is going to bother to respond to every point you try to make? Those are only your views anyway - you refute nothing since you offer no support, and harp on the same unsupported nonsense over and over - so people just don't bother.

I'm enjoying the debate with Frank.

We are at the point of distinguishing between "thinking", "reason", "reasonableness", rationality, and irrationality.

That you can't tolerate the debate is telling.....
and unfortunately Frank will likely also not want to further explore the difference between rational and irrational, and the influence of the triune brain on both.

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: racism, sexism = aboriginal 'culture'
Reply #184 - Jan 7^th, 2023 at 11:13am

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 7^th, 2023 at 11:01am:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jan 7^th, 2023 at 10:25am:

How many times have you been told that your Yadda-esque responses make it unlikely anyone is going to bother to respond to every point you try to make? Those are only your views anyway - you refute nothing since you offer no support, and harp on the same unsupported nonsense over and over - so people just don't bother.

I'm enjoying the debate with Frank.

We are at the point of distinguishing between "thinking", "reason", "reasonableness", rationality, and irrationality.

That you can't tolerate the debate is telling.....
and unfortunately Frank will likely also not want to further explore the difference between rational and irrational, and the influence of the triune brain on both.

Then move it to Philosophy.... this is about racism,sexism and how that applies to aboriginal culture. clearly it is you who cannot tolerate the the debate so you constantly try to shift it to something else... then repeat, repeat, repeat, and claim victory from sheer boredom.

We know you... and we know you are trying to clog this board up with your nonsense. and evade discussion of the issues raised.

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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thegreatdivide

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Re: racism, sexism = aboriginal 'culture'
Reply #185 - Jan 7^th, 2023 at 11:28am

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jan 7^th, 2023 at 11:13am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 7^th, 2023 at 11:01am:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jan 7^th, 2023 at 10:25am:

How many times have you been told that your Yadda-esque responses make it unlikely anyone is going to bother to respond to every point you try to make? Those are only your views anyway - you refute nothing since you offer no support, and harp on the same unsupported nonsense over and over - so people just don't bother.

I'm enjoying the debate with Frank.

We are at the point of distinguishing between "thinking", "reason", "reasonableness", rationality, and irrationality.

That you can't tolerate the debate is telling.....
and unfortunately Frank will likely also not want to further explore the difference between rational and irrational, and the influence of the triune brain on both.

Then move it to Philosophy.... this is about racism,sexism and how that applies to aboriginal culture. clearly it is you who cannot tolerate the the debate so you constantly try to shift it to something else... then repeat, repeat, repeat, and claim victory from sheer boredom.

We know you... and we know you are trying to clog this board up with your nonsense. and evade discussion of the issues raised.

One of the great catastrophes of modern academic study is the 'silo-ization' of various academic fields.

eg, economics divorced from sociology and ecology...and philosophy.

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 83174 Proud pre-1850's NO Voter Gender:	Re: racism, sexism = aboriginal 'culture' Reply #186 - Jan 7^th, 2023 at 11:38am You're clogging up discussion of the issue again..... get with it ..... Abo 'culture' is clearly racist and sexist.... Your turn - we all know about the problems with current academic standards ....
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thegreatdivide

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Re: racism, sexism = aboriginal 'culture'
Reply #187 - Jan 7^th, 2023 at 12:05pm

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jan 7^th, 2023 at 11:38am:

You're clogging up discussion of the issue again..... get with it .....

Abo 'culture' is clearly racist and sexist....

Your turn - we all know about the problems with current academic standards ....

Dunno about sexist, but clearly racist.

The question is why?

Can't be divorced from economics and philosophy which maintains the racism.

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: racism, sexism = aboriginal 'culture'
Reply #188 - Jan 7^th, 2023 at 12:17pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 7^th, 2023 at 12:05pm:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jan 7^th, 2023 at 11:38am:

You're clogging up discussion of the issue again..... get with it .....

Abo 'culture' is clearly racist and sexist....

Your turn - we all know about the problems with current academic standards ....

Dunno about sexist, but clearly racist.

The question is why?

Can't be divorced from economics and philosophy which maintains the racism.

Well - it's their philosophy of wanting to 'do things their way' and their clinging to their outdated and frankly lazy approach to life that is causing all those problems..... so in that sense economics and philosophy come into it - but only in a clearly defined arena.

Women excluded from certain areas? Say no more......

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« Last Edit: Jan 7^th, 2023 at 12:26pm by Grappler Truth Teller Feller »

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: racism, sexism = aboriginal 'culture'
Reply #189 - Jan 7^th, 2023 at 12:27pm

First you have to define clearly this 'racism' of which you speak, and then cite clearly why there are differences.

And never forget that unlike, say, African nations, they are not the majority here.... they can, in reality, enforce nothing ... so they must find other ways to get on in the modern world since history has overtaken them long ago...

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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thegreatdivide

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Re: racism, sexism = aboriginal 'culture'
Reply #190 - Jan 7^th, 2023 at 12:47pm

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jan 7^th, 2023 at 12:17pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 7^th, 2023 at 12:05pm:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jan 7^th, 2023 at 11:38am:

You're clogging up discussion of the issue again..... get with it .....

Abo 'culture' is clearly racist and sexist....

Your turn - we all know about the problems with current academic standards ....

Dunno about sexist, but clearly racist.

The question is why?

Can't be divorced from economics and philosophy which maintains the racism.

Well - it's their philosophy of wanting to 'do things their way' and their clinging to their outdated and frankly lazy approach to life that is causing all those problems..... so in that sense economics and philosophy come into it - but only in a clearly defined arena.

Yes, aided and abetted by "rights" ideologues like Megan Davis banging on about "land rights"....

Quote:

women...

ah yes.... 'secrete women's business' balanced by 'secret men's business'? btw (mostly) all races are sexist...

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thegreatdivide

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Re: racism, sexism = aboriginal 'culture'
Reply #191 - Jan 7^th, 2023 at 12:54pm

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jan 7^th, 2023 at 12:27pm:

First you have to define clearly this 'racism' of which you speak, and then cite clearly why there are differences.

Yes, so make sure you define these terms when you next debate someone who wants to maintain aboriginal culture. I'm not particularly interested; our own "freedom" culture needs continual improvement, to achieve basic universal prosperity.

Quote:

And never forget that unlike, say, African nations, they are not the majority here.... they can, in reality, enforce nothing ... so they must find other ways to get on in the modern world since history has overtaken them long ago...

Yes, though I think it was Price who said, "we have to act as a nation, to close the gap".

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 83174 Proud pre-1850's NO Voter Gender:	Re: racism, sexism = aboriginal 'culture' Reply #192 - Jan 7^th, 2023 at 1:19pm racism, sexism = aboriginal 'culture' Now - Racism:-
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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: racism, sexism = aboriginal 'culture'
Reply #193 - Jan 7^th, 2023 at 1:31pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 7^th, 2023 at 12:54pm:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jan 7^th, 2023 at 12:27pm:

First you have to define clearly this 'racism' of which you speak, and then cite clearly why there are differences.

Yes, so make sure you define these terms when you next debate someone who wants to maintain aboriginal culture. I'm not particularly interested; our own "freedom" culture needs continual improvement, to achieve basic universal prosperity.

Quote:

And never forget that unlike, say, African nations, they are not the majority here.... they can, in reality, enforce nothing ... so they must find other ways to get on in the modern world since history has overtaken them long ago...

Yes, though I think it was Price who said, "we have to act as a nation, to close the gap".

96% cannot act for the benefit of the 4% unless the 4% chooses to co-operate. (round figures only) In the greater scheme of things, in the pursuit of the greatest good for the greatest number, unless the 4% comes along for the ride instead of stonewalling day after day, the only option is to abandon pursuit of bettering them.

Money wasted chasing recalcitrants would be put to far better use elsewhere... say closing the gaps between rich and poor to give the really poor a fair go.... pursue that goal instead of pouring billions into Aboriginal problems for no result other than a host of useless loud-mouths being fed, and you will inevitably pick up those of the Aboriginal community who want to self-improve.

You will never achieve that by throwing free money at them over and over again.... so forget about the philosophy and policy of division and exclusion - and forget about the racial component, and start working for all equally again.... when all at that level are raised, the Abos will come along or not on their own steam.... their choice. while ever you continue to subject large segments of the overall community to neo-poverty, no Abo will ever see any reason to want to raise him or her self. And no - you are wrong again - I am not 'coming around' to your POV - I was there long before you, but I do not agree with your chosen approach to solving these issues, and nor does anyone else outside of some small echo chamber of theories hiding in a cloistered room filled with like-minded and equally inexperienced semi-educated individuals.

Talking to you I feel I'm talking to Rudd or Albo.... like striking a marshmallow with hard fact every time.... a memory foam cushion that just returns to the same shape no matter what pressure is applied ...so I might as well offer proper guidance in the hope it will get back to those losers.

As Randall McMurphy said - "At least I gave it a try!"

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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thegreatdivide

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Re: racism, sexism = aboriginal 'culture'
Reply #194 - Jan 7^th, 2023 at 5:34pm

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jan 7^th, 2023 at 1:31pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 7^th, 2023 at 12:54pm:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jan 7^th, 2023 at 12:27pm:

First you have to define clearly this 'racism' of which you speak, and then cite clearly why there are differences.

Yes, so make sure you define these terms when you next debate someone who wants to maintain aboriginal culture. I'm not particularly interested; our own "freedom" culture needs continual improvement, to achieve basic universal prosperity.

Quote:

And never forget that unlike, say, African nations, they are not the majority here.... they can, in reality, enforce nothing ... so they must find other ways to get on in the modern world since history has overtaken them long ago...

Yes, though I think it was Price who said, "we have to act as a nation, to close the gap".

96% cannot act for the benefit of the 4% unless the 4% chooses to co-operate. (round figures only)

Poverty rate in Oz:

13.4%

Our 2022 Poverty in Australia Snapshot found that there are 3.3 million people (13.4%) living below the poverty line of 50% of median income, including 761,000 children (16.6%). In dollar figures, the poverty line works out to $489 a week fir a single adult and $1,027 a week for a couple with 2 children.

So.... round figures....87%, not 96%, 'acting for' 13%, not 4%; in any case, your 'acting for' concept is flawed - the central bank should be acting for the 13%. as well as the rest of the population.
[Hint: Oz is rich in resources AND know how, the Oz treasury and central bank can fund a JG at no cost to you. (see MMT).

Quote:

In the greater scheme of things, in the pursuit of the greatest good for the greatest number, unless the 4% comes along for the ride instead of stonewalling day after day, the only option is to abandon pursuit of bettering them.

Addressed above - and another option outlined. Indeed the necessity to close the gap in the coming years may well force the necessary change in treasury /central bank arrangements, we will see.

Quote:

Money wasted etc etc...You will never achieve (closing the gap) by throwing free money at them over and over again.

1. It's smart resource mobilization we have to concern ourselves with, not money which the nation's treasury/central bank combo can create out of nothing.

2. 'Free money' has never been thrown at them yet: the government, by law, has always been forced to rely on taxpayer money. That's the current evil central bank orthodoxy, including selling interest-bearing bonds to rich people, which has to be repaid to said bond holders.

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so forget about the philosophy and policy of division and exclusion - and forget about the racial component, and start working for all equally again....

100% agree.....though unfortunately you probably don't understand why/how I agree (despite my attempt to educate you about the flawed concept of "equal before the law).

Quote:

when all at that level are raised, the Abos will come along or not on their own steam.... their choice. while ever you continue to subject large segments of the overall community to neo-poverty, no Abo will ever see any reason to want to raise him or her self. And no - you are wrong again - I am not 'coming around' to your POV - I was there long before you, but I do not agree with your chosen approach to solving these issues, and nor does anyone else outside of some small echo chamber of theories hiding in a cloistered room filled with like-minded and equally inexperienced semi-educated individuals.

Talking to you I feel I'm talking to Rudd or Albo.... like striking a marshmallow with hard fact every time.... a memory foam cushion that just returns to the same shape no matter what pressure is applied ...so I might as well offer proper guidance in the hope it will get back to those losers.

As Randall McMurphy said - "At least I gave it a try!"

Interesting you should equate me with neoliberal ideologues like Albo and Rudd; I represent a 'third way'.

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