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Zionism (Read 26358 times)
thegreatdivide
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Re: Zionism
Reply #135 - Jan 1st, 2023 at 1:56pm
 
MeisterEckhart wrote on Dec 31st, 2022 at 4:05pm:
Yes. Netanyahu is determined to land peace treaties with all middle eastern (particularly arab) states.

Luckily for him, the Arab states are nearly all onside with his plan.


It will be interesting to see if any Arab reluctance appears, caused by the ascension of zionist RW religious and nationalist nut jobs into Netanyahu's cabinet.

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As for the Palestinians, funny how the Arab states refuse to grant them citizenship - and King Abdullah of Jordan seems like a nice guy.


yes, most nations prefer to discourage large-scale refugee immigration, for economic reasons; and indeed a rich neighbour like Israel might be more beneficial to trade with than poor neighbours...

Self interest explains most things, political or economic.

Culture/religion a distant second. 
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« Last Edit: Jan 1st, 2023 at 2:45pm by thegreatdivide »  
 
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MeisterEckhart
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Re: Zionism
Reply #136 - Jan 1st, 2023 at 6:09pm
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 1st, 2023 at 1:56pm:
MeisterEckhart wrote on Dec 31st, 2022 at 4:05pm:
Yes. Netanyahu is determined to land peace treaties with all middle eastern (particularly arab) states.

Luckily for him, the Arab states are nearly all onside with his plan.


It will be interesting to see if any Arab reluctance appears, caused by the ascension of zionist RW religious and nationalist nut jobs into Netanyahu's cabinet.
 

In a region where theocratic autocracy is the norm?

I'd bet the Arab states would understand religious militantism better than secular democracy.
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thegreatdivide
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Re: Zionism
Reply #137 - Jan 2nd, 2023 at 5:49am
 
MeisterEckhart wrote on Jan 1st, 2023 at 6:09pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 1st, 2023 at 1:56pm:
MeisterEckhart wrote on Dec 31st, 2022 at 4:05pm:
Yes. Netanyahu is determined to land peace treaties with all middle eastern (particularly arab) states.

Luckily for him, the Arab states are nearly all onside with his plan.


It will be interesting to see if any Arab reluctance appears, caused by the ascension of zionist RW religious and nationalist nut jobs into Netanyahu's cabinet.
 

In a region where theocratic autocracy is the norm?

I'd bet the Arab states would understand religious militantism better than secular democracy.


Indeed, "democratic" Israel and the Arab states are birds a feather.

Today  Netanyahu said Israel isn't an occupying power because "the land belongs to Israel".....  the ultimate Zionist land grab of the former British Palestine mandate.

Unfortunately for Netanyahu and the other Zionist thugs in his cabinet, the UN doesn't agree: a majority of the UNGA has voted for the ICJ to examine the legality of the ongoing occupation.

....almost 70 years after the 6 day war when the UN passed res 242  which noted "the acquisition of territory by force is inadmissible" under international law.

(The fact we still don't have defensible international law, despite the creation of the UN Charter in 1946, is another matter. The ICJ will nevertheless rule on the matter, as always).   
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MeisterEckhart
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Re: Zionism
Reply #138 - Jan 2nd, 2023 at 6:06am
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 2nd, 2023 at 5:49am:
MeisterEckhart wrote on Jan 1st, 2023 at 6:09pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 1st, 2023 at 1:56pm:
MeisterEckhart wrote on Dec 31st, 2022 at 4:05pm:
Yes. Netanyahu is determined to land peace treaties with all middle eastern (particularly arab) states.

Luckily for him, the Arab states are nearly all onside with his plan.


It will be interesting to see if any Arab reluctance appears, caused by the ascension of zionist RW religious and nationalist nut jobs into Netanyahu's cabinet.
 

In a region where theocratic autocracy is the norm?

I'd bet the Arab states would understand religious militantism better than secular democracy.

Today  Netanyahu said Israel isn't an occupying power because "the land belongs to Israel".....  the ultimate Zionist land grab of the former British Palestine mandate.

Here's the thing about conflating 19th-20th century Zionism with the Jewish mythos of the Promised Land.

The borders of the planned state of greater Israel correspond to the ancient land of Canaan - the Promised Land - which has persisted in the Jewish psyche for thousands of years. Zionism may have coopted that psyche to its cause, but it did not create it.
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thegreatdivide
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Re: Zionism
Reply #139 - Jan 2nd, 2023 at 7:40am
 
MeisterEckhart wrote on Jan 2nd, 2023 at 6:06am:
Here's the thing about conflating 19th-20th century Zionism with the Jewish mythos of the Promised Land.


And who is indulging in that Jewish fantasy today, with Netanyahu claiming "there is no occupation"?

Quote:
The borders of the planned state of greater Israel correspond to the ancient land of Canaan - the Promised Land - which has persisted in the Jewish psyche for thousands of years. Zionism may have coopted that psyche to its cause, but it did not create it.


Indeed.

But note (quick google):

"The Book of Exodus describes the Promised Land in terms of the territory from the River of Egypt to the Euphrates river".  Exodus 23:31.

Ouch....although only "the river" is specified, not the Euphrates. The Jordan perhaps?

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« Last Edit: Jan 2nd, 2023 at 7:50am by thegreatdivide »  
 
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MeisterEckhart
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Re: Zionism
Reply #140 - Jan 2nd, 2023 at 9:20am
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 2nd, 2023 at 7:40am:
MeisterEckhart wrote on Jan 2nd, 2023 at 6:06am:
Here's the thing about conflating 19th-20th century Zionism with the Jewish mythos of the Promised Land.


And who is indulging in that Jewish fantasy today, with Netanyahu claiming "there is no occupation"?

Quote:
The borders of the planned state of greater Israel correspond to the ancient land of Canaan - the Promised Land - which has persisted in the Jewish psyche for thousands of years. Zionism may have coopted that psyche to its cause, but it did not create it.


Indeed.

But note (quick google):

"The Book of Exodus describes the Promised Land in terms of the territory from the River of Egypt to the Euphrates river".  Exodus 23:31.

Ouch....although only "the river" is specified, not the Euphrates. The Jordan perhaps?


Have you travelled much?

You read like you don't understand the role myths play (particularly spiritual and religious ones) in the human collective psyche and their tenacious persistence.

There is no evidence that Moses ever existed (even Israeli archaeologists admit that). There is no evidence of the life of Jesus prior to his entry into history at age 30 and only second-hand (at best) retrospective anecdotes after that. Did Mohammed fly to Heaven at the dome of the rock in Jerusalem? Did the Archangel Gabriel miraculously grant Mohammed the power of literacy while he was in that cave?

In Jewish religious tradition, Joshua conquered the Canaanites and secured the boundaries of Canaan for the chosen people, as promised to Abraham by El (Yahweh) - Book of Genesis.

Myths live in their own magisterium and are resistant to a lack of evidence.
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thegreatdivide
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Re: Zionism
Reply #141 - Jan 2nd, 2023 at 9:27am
 
MeisterEckhart wrote on Jan 2nd, 2023 at 9:20am:
thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 2nd, 2023 at 7:40am:
MeisterEckhart wrote on Jan 2nd, 2023 at 6:06am:
Here's the thing about conflating 19th-20th century Zionism with the Jewish mythos of the Promised Land.


And who is indulging in that Jewish fantasy today, with Netanyahu claiming "there is no occupation"?

Quote:
The borders of the planned state of greater Israel correspond to the ancient land of Canaan - the Promised Land - which has persisted in the Jewish psyche for thousands of years. Zionism may have coopted that psyche to its cause, but it did not create it.


Indeed.

But note (quick google):

"The Book of Exodus describes the Promised Land in terms of the territory from the River of Egypt to the Euphrates river".  Exodus 23:31.

Ouch....although only "the river" is specified, not the Euphrates. The Jordan perhaps?


Have you travelled much?

You read like you don't understand the role myths play (particularly spiritual and religious ones) in the human collective psyche and their tenacious persistence.

There is no evidence that Moses ever existed (even Israeli archaeologists admit that). There is no evidence of the life of Jesus prior to his entry into history at age 30 and only second-hand (at best) retrospective anecdotes after that. Did Mohammed fly to Heaven at the dome of the rock in Jerusalem? Did the Archangel Gabriel miraculously grant Mohammed the power of literacy while he was in that cave?

In Jewish religious tradition, Joshua conquered the Canaanites and secured the boundaries of Canaan for the chosen people, as promised to Abraham by El (Yahweh) - Book of Genesis.

Myths live in their own magisterium and are resistant to a lack of evidence.


The relevant point today is Netanyahu claiming "there is no occupation", which is obvious BS, regardless of the extent of the "Promised Land" in Jewish mythology.
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MeisterEckhart
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Re: Zionism
Reply #142 - Jan 2nd, 2023 at 9:34am
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 2nd, 2023 at 9:27am:
The relevant point today is Netanyahu claiming "there is no occupation", which is obvious BS, regardless of the extent of the "Promised Land" in Jewish mythology.

It's true if you believe Jewish religious mythology.

Many US Christian fundamentalist sects also believe Jewish religious mythology - as inherited through the Old Testament - and support the establishment of greater Israel as a precondition for the second coming of the Messiah.
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thegreatdivide
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Re: Zionism
Reply #143 - Jan 2nd, 2023 at 9:42am
 
MeisterEckhart wrote on Jan 2nd, 2023 at 9:34am:
thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 2nd, 2023 at 9:27am:
The relevant point today is Netanyahu claiming "there is no occupation", which is obvious BS, regardless of the extent of the "Promised Land" in Jewish mythology.

It's true if you believe Jewish religious mythology.


which I - and the majority of the UNGA who voted last week for the ICJ to examine Israel's ongoing illegal occupation - do not believe.

Unlike Netanyahu who does believe, brushing aside the UNGA and ICJ: "there is no occupation".

Quote:
Many US Christian fundamentalist sects also believe Jewish religious mythology - as inherited through the Old Testament - and support the establishment of greater Israel as a precondition for the second coming of the Messiah.


Yes.

But Jewish mythology is now being confronted by  international law...again.
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MeisterEckhart
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Re: Zionism
Reply #144 - Jan 2nd, 2023 at 9:51am
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 2nd, 2023 at 9:42am:
MeisterEckhart wrote on Jan 2nd, 2023 at 9:34am:
thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 2nd, 2023 at 9:27am:
The relevant point today is Netanyahu claiming "there is no occupation", which is obvious BS, regardless of the extent of the "Promised Land" in Jewish mythology.

It's true if you believe Jewish religious mythology.


which I - and the majority of the UNGA who voted last week for the ICJ to examine Israel's ongoing illegal occupation - do not believe.

Unlike Netanyahu who does believe, brushing aside the UNGA and ICJ: "there is no occupation".

Quote:
Many US Christian fundamentalist sects also believe Jewish religious mythology - as inherited through the Old Testament - and support the establishment of greater Israel as a precondition for the second coming of the Messiah.


Yes.

But Jewish mythology is now being confronted by  international law...again.

All religious Jews believe Jewish religious mythology, not just Netanyahu.

Modern international law and archaeological evidence are secondary to deeply-held religious beliefs by those faithful to them - it's why the CCP puts so much effort into fabricating 'ancient' beliefs about China's 'ancient' boundaries and forces the Chinese people, by edicts, to believe them.
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thegreatdivide
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Re: Zionism
Reply #145 - Jan 2nd, 2023 at 10:05am
 
MeisterEckhart wrote on Jan 2nd, 2023 at 9:51am:
thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 2nd, 2023 at 9:42am:
MeisterEckhart wrote on Jan 2nd, 2023 at 9:34am:
thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 2nd, 2023 at 9:27am:
The relevant point today is Netanyahu claiming "there is no occupation", which is obvious BS, regardless of the extent of the "Promised Land" in Jewish mythology.

It's true if you believe Jewish religious mythology.


which I - and the majority of the UNGA who voted last week for the ICJ to examine Israel's ongoing illegal occupation - do not believe.

Unlike Netanyahu who does believe, brushing aside the UNGA and ICJ: "there is no occupation".

Quote:
Many US Christian fundamentalist sects also believe Jewish religious mythology - as inherited through the Old Testament - and support the establishment of greater Israel as a precondition for the second coming of the Messiah.


Yes.

But Jewish mythology is now being confronted by  international law...again.


All religious Jews believe Jewish religious mythology, not just Netanyahu.


You stating the obvious again. 

Quote:
Modern international law and archaeological evidence are secondary to deeply-held religious beliefs by those faithful to them


And that is a problem when the most powerful party claims a right to land based on mythology.


Quote:
- it's why the CCP...



...didn't take you long, now that you don't have anything useful to add re the illegal zionist/jewish  occupation based on bronze-age mythology...


Quote:
...puts so much effort into fabricating 'ancient' beliefs about China's 'ancient' boundaries and forces the Chinese people, by edicts, to believe them.


The Qing dynasty collapsed in 1911. People whose parents were alive then are living today. 
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MeisterEckhart
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Re: Zionism
Reply #146 - Jan 2nd, 2023 at 10:14am
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 2nd, 2023 at 10:05am:
The Qing dynasty collapsed in 1911. People whose parents were alive then are living today. 

Not even much knowledge of China in the 20th century. Is there anything you actually know about China?

Nearly all Chinese were illiterate in 1911 and had no idea about China outside their immediate region - that persisted almost to the end of the 20th century.

Joseph Needham, in the 30s, was stunned at how little the Chinese knew about their own history.

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MeisterEckhart
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Re: Zionism
Reply #147 - Jan 2nd, 2023 at 10:18am
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 2nd, 2023 at 10:05am:
Quote:
All religious Jews believe Jewish religious mythology, not just Netanyahu.


You stating the obvious again. 

Then stop laying it at the feet of Netanyahu. Nearly all Jews think the way he does.
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thegreatdivide
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Re: Zionism
Reply #148 - Jan 2nd, 2023 at 10:26am
 
MeisterEckhart wrote on Jan 2nd, 2023 at 10:18am:
thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 2nd, 2023 at 10:05am:
Quote:
All religious Jews believe Jewish religious mythology, not just Netanyahu.


You stating the obvious again. 

Then stop laying it at the feet of Netanyahu. Nearly all Jews think the way he does.


Netanyahu is the Israeli spokesman giving the finger to the world community. He should be condemned by the ICJ, for Israel's ongoing illegal occupation. 
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MeisterEckhart
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Re: Zionism
Reply #149 - Jan 2nd, 2023 at 10:32am
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 2nd, 2023 at 10:26am:
MeisterEckhart wrote on Jan 2nd, 2023 at 10:18am:
thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 2nd, 2023 at 10:05am:
Quote:
All religious Jews believe Jewish religious mythology, not just Netanyahu.


You stating the obvious again. 

Then stop laying it at the feet of Netanyahu. Nearly all Jews think the way he does.


Netanyahu is the Israeli spokesman giving the finger to the world community. He should be condemned by the ICJ, for Israel's ongoing illegal occupation. 

He will never be held accountable. As Putin never will be. Or Xi Jinping. Or any US president. Or any leader of a major or regional power.

Unless they fall from power and are indicted by their own people.
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