Forum

 
  Back to OzPolitic.com   Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
  Forum Home Album HelpSearch Recent Rules LoginRegister  
 

Pages: 1 ... 12 13 14 15 16 ... 73
Send Topic Print
Zionism (Read 26673 times)
thegreatdivide
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics<br
/>

Posts: 12973
Gender: male
Re: Zionism
Reply #195 - Jan 5th, 2023 at 5:19pm
 
MeisterEckhart wrote on Jan 5th, 2023 at 1:10pm:
athos wrote on Jan 5th, 2023 at 12:46pm:
in a world of universal deceit and moral relativism, any lie can be the truth.

That'd be what the CCP security bureau officer tells you when you're on your knees in front of him.


No, that's what philosopher/emperor Marcus Aerelius discovered, the more he became involved in "the affairs of men". 

...courtesy of blindly self-interested "freedom" ideologues  like you.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
MeisterEckhart
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 12579
Gender: male
Re: Zionism
Reply #196 - Jan 5th, 2023 at 6:45pm
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 5th, 2023 at 5:19pm:
MeisterEckhart wrote on Jan 5th, 2023 at 1:10pm:
athos wrote on Jan 5th, 2023 at 12:46pm:
in a world of universal deceit and moral relativism, any lie can be the truth.

That'd be what the CCP security bureau officer tells you when you're on your knees in front of him.


No, that's what philosopher/emperor Marcus Aerelius discovered, the more he became involved in "the affairs of men". 

...courtesy of blindly self-interested "freedom" ideologues  like you.

The Chinese people spend their lives listening to lies peddled by the CCP and ordered to believe them.

Even the Chinese people will tell you that... but then, you don't know any.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
wombatwoody
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 3210
Wombat  NSW
Re: Zionism
Reply #197 - Jan 5th, 2023 at 8:00pm
 
Lisa Jones wrote on Jan 5th, 2023 at 9:16am:
Oh so Wiki is nothing but Zionist propaganda ie no longer relevant in your mind.


Wikipedia can be a reasonably reliable source for information on a wide range of subjects except when it comes to Israel/Palestine, WW2 etc. On those topics it has an egregious pro-Zionist, anti-Palestinian bias that many if not most people accept as fact.

Like I said, see the previous post where I posted that author's experience to see just how biased it is.

Quote:
In your mind Julian Assange must be a Zionist too


Me thinks you are confusing Wikileaks with Wikipedia?

Back to top
 

We are benefiting from ... the attack on the Twin Towers and Pentagon, and the American struggle in Iraq.

Benjamin Netanyahu, quoted in Ma’ariv, 16 April 2008
 
IP Logged
 
wombatwoody
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 3210
Wombat  NSW
Re: Zionism
Reply #198 - Jan 5th, 2023 at 8:02pm
 
Lisa Jones wrote on Jan 5th, 2023 at 9:21am:
Oi WOMbatty .... do YOU THINK Zionists are racist?

It's a very simple question.

The answer is either a YES or a NO!


Why give a one word answer when I can quote many passages from the learned Prof. Shahak?
Back to top
 

We are benefiting from ... the attack on the Twin Towers and Pentagon, and the American struggle in Iraq.

Benjamin Netanyahu, quoted in Ma’ariv, 16 April 2008
 
IP Logged
 
Lisa Jones
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 39047
Sydney
Gender: female
Re: Zionism
Reply #199 - Jan 5th, 2023 at 8:04pm
 
wombatwoody wrote on Jan 5th, 2023 at 8:02pm:
Lisa Jones wrote on Jan 5th, 2023 at 9:21am:
Oi WOMbatty .... do YOU THINK Zionists are racist?

It's a very simple question.

The answer is either a YES or a NO!


Why give a one word answer when I can quote many passages from the learned Prof. Shahak?


I never asked you to quote OTHER people.

I asked you for YOUR opinion.
Back to top
 

If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free.

HYPATIA - Greek philosopher, mathematician and astronomer (370 - 415)
 
IP Logged
 
wombatwoody
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 3210
Wombat  NSW
Re: Zionism
Reply #200 - Jan 5th, 2023 at 8:06pm
 
freediver wrote on Jan 5th, 2023 at 8:51am:
Sure. Here is an example from Ibn Ishaq, of Muhammad openly threatening to kill Jews if they do not convert to Islam.

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Muhammad_and_the_Jews_According_to_Ibn_Ishaq



Wikisource is an online digital library of free-content textual sources on a wiki, operated by the Wikimedia Foundation. Wikipedia

The Wikimedia Foundation is the nonprofit that hosts Wikipedia.
Founder: Jimmy Wales, founder of Wikipedia

I've already pointed out why Wikipedia is untrustworthy.

For instance, does that entry present the other side?

Like Joseph A. Islam who wrote:

'There is no extant contemporary immediate verification of Ibn Ishaq's work. There are many serious criticisms by his own contemporary scholars including Imam Malik (Malik ibn Anas). In fact, we don't even possess Ibn Ishaq's own original work. Rather, we have received what Ibn Ishaq allegedly wrote through various transmitters who have passed on his work and have edited it. One of them, Al Waqidi, was writing nearly half a century later and there is much criticism in scholarly circles with regards his work.'

I doubt it.

I also doubt that a scholar like Mr. Avenery could be so mistaken on such a vital point of that history.

I also find it remarkable that you always seem to neglect to make your links active. Now why is that? Let me guess: you find this archaic forum software bothersome. Am I correct?
Back to top
 

We are benefiting from ... the attack on the Twin Towers and Pentagon, and the American struggle in Iraq.

Benjamin Netanyahu, quoted in Ma’ariv, 16 April 2008
 
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Offline


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 49081
At my desk.
Re: Zionism
Reply #201 - Jan 5th, 2023 at 8:12pm
 
wombatwoody wrote on Jan 5th, 2023 at 8:06pm:
freediver wrote on Jan 5th, 2023 at 8:51am:
Sure. Here is an example from Ibn Ishaq, of Muhammad openly threatening to kill Jews if they do not convert to Islam.

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Muhammad_and_the_Jews_According_to_Ibn_Ishaq



Wikisource is an online digital library of free-content textual sources on a wiki, operated by the Wikimedia Foundation. Wikipedia

The Wikimedia Foundation is the nonprofit that hosts Wikipedia.
Founder: Jimmy Wales, founder of Wikipedia

I've already pointed out why Wikipedia is untrustworthy.

For instance, does that entry present the other side?

Like Joseph A. Islam who wrote:

'There is no extant contemporary immediate verification of Ibn Ishaq's work. There are many serious criticisms by his own contemporary scholars including Imam Malik (Malik ibn Anas). In fact, we don't even possess Ibn Ishaq's own original work. Rather, we have received what Ibn Ishaq allegedly wrote through various transmitters who have passed on his work and have edited it. One of them, Al Waqidi, was writing nearly half a century later and there is much criticism in scholarly circles with regards his work.'

I doubt it.

I also doubt that a scholar like Mr. Avenery could be so mistaken on such a vital point of that history.

I also find it remarkable that you always seem to neglect to make your links active. Now why is that? Let me guess: you find this archaic forum software bothersome. Am I correct?


And yet, all 3 of the large Jewish tribes of Medina ended up slaughtered, or expelled then slaughtered. Except for the ones that converted to Islam. The ethnic cleansing of the area is well documented. Islam is full of tirades against the Jews. Muhammad slaughtered Jews. There's isn't really any wiggle room here.

Even our resident progressive Muslim, Gandalf, is compelled by Islam to justify the slaughtering of Jews by saying they were literally a mindless collective of treacherous Jews.

Only the truly gullible believe that out of that comes a history of "protecting" Jews.
Back to top
 

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.
WWW  
IP Logged
 
wombatwoody
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 3210
Wombat  NSW
Re: Zionism
Reply #202 - Jan 6th, 2023 at 4:52am
 
So I guess Joseph A. Islam's piece isn't there on that Wiki, right? See what I mean by bias? Though you could try editing it to include it and then see how far you get before you're banned, just like the aforementioned blogger was.

freediver wrote on Jan 5th, 2023 at 8:12pm:
And yet, all 3 of the large Jewish tribes of Medina ended up slaughtered, or expelled then slaughtered.




Of which the 19th century historian Stanley Lane-Poole writes:

"Of the sentences on the three clans, that of exile, passed upon two of them, was clement enough. They were a turbulent set, always setting the people of Medina by the ears; and finally, a brawl followed by an insurrection resulted in the expulsion of one tribe; and insubordination, alliance with enemies and a suspicion of conspiracy against the Prophet’s life, ended similarly for the second. Both tribes had violated the original treaty, and had endeavored in every way to bring Muhammad and his religion to ridicule and destruction. The only question is whether their punishment was not too light. Of the third clan a fearful example was made, not by Muhammad, but by an arbiter appointed by themselves. When Quraish and their allies were besieging Medina and had well-nigh stormed the defences, this Jewish tribe [the Banu Quraizah] entered into negotiations with the enemy, which were only circumvented by the diplomacy of the Prophet. When the besiegers had retired, Muhammad naturally demanded an explanation of the Jews. They resisted in their dogged way and were themselves besieged and compelled to surrender at discretion. Muhammad, however, consented to the appointing of a chief of a tribe allied to the Jews as the judge who should pronounce sentence upon them. This chief gave sentence that the men, in numbers some 600, should be killed, and the women and children enslaved; and the sentence was carried out. It was a harsh, bloody sentence; but it must be remembered that the crime of these men was high treason against the State, during a time of siege; and one need not be surprised at the summary execution of a traitorous clan."

Stanley Lane-Poole, Studies in a Mosque  (1883)

So Muhammad did not order any execution, nor did he participate in the execution. On the contrary, he agreed to let the Banu Quraizah’s own ally deliver the verdict.

The Ottoman Empire protected the Jews for centuries. Look at how they were granted asylum. And this of course vindicates Mr. Uri Avenery:


The Jewish Community in The Ottoman Empire

by Ekrem Ekinci
Oct 13, 2017

Throughout its history, the Ottoman Empire was a place where Jews could live without fear of persecution, a comfort denied to them in most of Europe. Sultan Bayezid II accepted tens of thousands of Sephardic Jews escaping from Spain in 1492. They settled in various cities such as Salonika (Thessaloniki), Smyrna (İzmir) and Constantinople in particular. Likewise, groups of Jews who managed to escape massacres in Poland and Ukraine in 1660 settled in the Ottoman Empire, as well. Around 90 percent of Ottoman Jews were of Sephardic origin and lived in cities, including Edirne, Bursa, Jerusalem, Safed, Cairo, Ankara, Tokat and Amasya. During the reign of Süleyman the Magnificent, when Constantinople had a population of 500,000, the number of Ottoman Jews was around 40,000. In Salonika, the biggest Jewish city in the world at the time, Ottoman Jews constituted more than half of the population.


The Sephardic Exodus to the Ottoman Empire - How Jews fleeing Spain and Portugal transformed the region.

by Eli Barnavi, from the Jewish study group, My Jewish Learning

Throughout the 16th century, the Jews in the Ottoman Empire enjoyed remarkable prosperity. The empire was rapidly expanding, and economic demand rose accordingly. Thus the Jewish population could easily enter into trade with Christian Europe, and into industries such as wool weaving that were only then beginning to evolve. Under the leadership of figures like Don Joseph Nasi and Solomon ibn Yaish, they could take advantage of their worldwide network of family connections and their knowledge of European affairs in order to promote the concerns of the Sublime Porte, as well as to protect their personal interests and those of their community.

And even Wikipedia admits this:

History of the Jews in the Ottoman Empire

In addition to the already existing Jewish population in the lands the Ottomans conquered, many more Jews were given refuge after the expulsion of Jews from Spain, under the reign of Beyezid II...  Jews had a considerable amount of administrative autonomy and were represented by the Hakham Bashi, the Chief Rabbi. There were no restrictions in the professions Jews could practice analogous to those common in Western Christian countries... Some Jews who reached high positions in the Ottoman court and administration include Mehmed II's minister of Finance ("Defterdar") Hekim Yakup Pasa, his Portuguese physician Moses Hamon, Murad II's physician Is'hak Pasha and Abraham de Castro, who was the master of the mint in Egypt.

Back to top
 

We are benefiting from ... the attack on the Twin Towers and Pentagon, and the American struggle in Iraq.

Benjamin Netanyahu, quoted in Ma’ariv, 16 April 2008
 
IP Logged
 
Frank
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 46530
Gender: male
Re: Zionism
Reply #203 - Jan 6th, 2023 at 7:20am
 
Wombatwoody, if you were 'World King' now, what would you actually do?


Back to top
 

Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.
 
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Offline


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 49081
At my desk.
Re: Zionism
Reply #204 - Jan 6th, 2023 at 8:01am
 
wombatwoody wrote on Jan 6th, 2023 at 4:52am:
So I guess Joseph A. Islam's piece isn't there on that Wiki, right? See what I mean by bias? Though you could try editing it to include it and then see how far you get before you're banned, just like the aforementioned blogger was.

freediver wrote on Jan 5th, 2023 at 8:12pm:
And yet, all 3 of the large Jewish tribes of Medina ended up slaughtered, or expelled then slaughtered.




Of which the 19th century historian Stanley Lane-Poole writes:

"Of the sentences on the three clans, that of exile, passed upon two of them, was clement enough. They were a turbulent set, always setting the people of Medina by the ears; and finally, a brawl followed by an insurrection resulted in the expulsion of one tribe; and insubordination, alliance with enemies and a suspicion of conspiracy against the Prophet’s life, ended similarly for the second. Both tribes had violated the original treaty, and had endeavored in every way to bring Muhammad and his religion to ridicule and destruction. The only question is whether their punishment was not too light. Of the third clan a fearful example was made, not by Muhammad, but by an arbiter appointed by themselves. When Quraish and their allies were besieging Medina and had well-nigh stormed the defences, this Jewish tribe [the Banu Quraizah] entered into negotiations with the enemy, which were only circumvented by the diplomacy of the Prophet. When the besiegers had retired, Muhammad naturally demanded an explanation of the Jews. They resisted in their dogged way and were themselves besieged and compelled to surrender at discretion. Muhammad, however, consented to the appointing of a chief of a tribe allied to the Jews as the judge who should pronounce sentence upon them. This chief gave sentence that the men, in numbers some 600, should be killed, and the women and children enslaved; and the sentence was carried out. It was a harsh, bloody sentence; but it must be remembered that the crime of these men was high treason against the State, during a time of siege; and one need not be surprised at the summary execution of a traitorous clan."

Stanley Lane-Poole, Studies in a Mosque  (1883)

So Muhammad did not order any execution, nor did he participate in the execution. On the contrary, he agreed to let the Banu Quraizah’s own ally deliver the verdict.

The Ottoman Empire protected the Jews for centuries. Look at how they were granted asylum. And this of course vindicates Mr. Uri Avenery:


The Jewish Community in The Ottoman Empire

by Ekrem Ekinci
Oct 13, 2017

Throughout its history, the Ottoman Empire was a place where Jews could live without fear of persecution, a comfort denied to them in most of Europe. Sultan Bayezid II accepted tens of thousands of Sephardic Jews escaping from Spain in 1492. They settled in various cities such as Salonika (Thessaloniki), Smyrna (İzmir) and Constantinople in particular. Likewise, groups of Jews who managed to escape massacres in Poland and Ukraine in 1660 settled in the Ottoman Empire, as well. Around 90 percent of Ottoman Jews were of Sephardic origin and lived in cities, including Edirne, Bursa, Jerusalem, Safed, Cairo, Ankara, Tokat and Amasya. During the reign of Süleyman the Magnificent, when Constantinople had a population of 500,000, the number of Ottoman Jews was around 40,000. In Salonika, the biggest Jewish city in the world at the time, Ottoman Jews constituted more than half of the population.


The Sephardic Exodus to the Ottoman Empire - How Jews fleeing Spain and Portugal transformed the region.

by Eli Barnavi, from the Jewish study group, My Jewish Learning

Throughout the 16th century, the Jews in the Ottoman Empire enjoyed remarkable prosperity. The empire was rapidly expanding, and economic demand rose accordingly. Thus the Jewish population could easily enter into trade with Christian Europe, and into industries such as wool weaving that were only then beginning to evolve. Under the leadership of figures like Don Joseph Nasi and Solomon ibn Yaish, they could take advantage of their worldwide network of family connections and their knowledge of European affairs in order to promote the concerns of the Sublime Porte, as well as to protect their personal interests and those of their community.

And even Wikipedia admits this:

History of the Jews in the Ottoman Empire

In addition to the already existing Jewish population in the lands the Ottomans conquered, many more Jews were given refuge after the expulsion of Jews from Spain, under the reign of Beyezid II...  Jews had a considerable amount of administrative autonomy and were represented by the Hakham Bashi, the Chief Rabbi. There were no restrictions in the professions Jews could practice analogous to those common in Western Christian countries... Some Jews who reached high positions in the Ottoman court and administration include Mehmed II's minister of Finance ("Defterdar") Hekim Yakup Pasa, his Portuguese physician Moses Hamon, Murad II's physician Is'hak Pasha and Abraham de Castro, who was the master of the mint in Egypt.



Are you complaining that wikipedia is biased because it does not host your insidious excuses for genocide of Jews by Muhammad?

Can you explain by what logic you go from excusing genocide of Jews by Muhammad to Islam having a history of "protecting" Jews?
Back to top
 

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Ayn Marx
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 2937
South of Australia
Gender: male
Re: Zionism
Reply #205 - Jan 6th, 2023 at 8:09am
 
I do really get tired of repeating this here -  but here goes again.
Until and unless we all face the fact superstition and religion embody the same evil mindless tribalism threatening our species survival we're heading for self induced extinction.
Anyone who imagines that an exaggeration needs only start asking questions about how many nuclear weapons are in the hands of 'true believers'. Not only the religious are infected with the notion of their exclusive possession of the truth given ideology is simply a secular version of collective human insanity.
Back to top
 

The Human Race is Insane
 
IP Logged
 
Frank
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 46530
Gender: male
Re: Zionism
Reply #206 - Jan 6th, 2023 at 8:19am
 
Ayn Marx wrote on Jan 6th, 2023 at 8:09am:
I do really get tired of repeating this here -  but here goes again.
Until and unless we all face the fact superstition and religion embody the same evil mindless tribalism threatening our species survival we're heading for self induced extinction.
Anyone who imagines that an exaggeration needs only start asking questions about how many nuclear weapons are in the hands of 'true believers'. Not only the religious are infected with the notion of their exclusive possession of the truth given ideology is simply a secular version of collective human insanity.

What is to be DONE?

Back to top
 

Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.
 
IP Logged
 
Ayn Marx
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 2937
South of Australia
Gender: male
Re: Zionism
Reply #207 - Jan 6th, 2023 at 8:38am
 
Frank wrote on Jan 6th, 2023 at 8:19am:
Ayn Marx wrote on Jan 6th, 2023 at 8:09am:
I do really get tired of repeating this here -  but here goes again.
Until and unless we all face the fact superstition and religion embody the same evil mindless tribalism threatening our species survival we're heading for self induced extinction.
Anyone who imagines that an exaggeration needs only start asking questions about how many nuclear weapons are in the hands of 'true believers'. Not only the religious are infected with the notion of their exclusive possession of the truth given ideology is simply a secular version of collective human insanity.

What is to be DONE?


There's a hint of an answer to that in Arthur Koestler's "The Ghost in The Machine'.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ghost_in_the_Machine

Back to top
« Last Edit: Jan 6th, 2023 at 9:08am by Ayn Marx »  

The Human Race is Insane
 
IP Logged
 
Frank
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 46530
Gender: male
Re: Zionism
Reply #208 - Jan 6th, 2023 at 9:40am
 
Ayn Marx wrote on Jan 6th, 2023 at 8:38am:
Frank wrote on Jan 6th, 2023 at 8:19am:
Ayn Marx wrote on Jan 6th, 2023 at 8:09am:
I do really get tired of repeating this here -  but here goes again.
Until and unless we all face the fact superstition and religion embody the same evil mindless tribalism threatening our species survival we're heading for self induced extinction.
Anyone who imagines that an exaggeration needs only start asking questions about how many nuclear weapons are in the hands of 'true believers'. Not only the religious are infected with the notion of their exclusive possession of the truth given ideology is simply a secular version of collective human insanity.

What is to be DONE?


There's a hint of an answer to that in Arthur Koestler's "The Ghost in The Machine'.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ghost_in_the_Machine



We've done the primitive, triune brain dodge already, pal.

https://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1671057927/100#100
Back to top
 

Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.
 
IP Logged
 
thegreatdivide
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics<br
/>

Posts: 12973
Gender: male
Re: Zionism
Reply #209 - Jan 6th, 2023 at 1:06pm
 
Frank wrote on Jan 6th, 2023 at 9:40am:
Ayn Marx wrote on Jan 6th, 2023 at 8:38am:
Frank wrote on Jan 6th, 2023 at 8:19am:
Ayn Marx wrote on Jan 6th, 2023 at 8:09am:
I do really get tired of repeating this here -  but here goes again.
Until and unless we all face the fact superstition and religion embody the same evil mindless tribalism threatening our species survival we're heading for self induced extinction.
Anyone who imagines that an exaggeration needs only start asking questions about how many nuclear weapons are in the hands of 'true believers'. Not only the religious are infected with the notion of their exclusive possession of the truth given ideology is simply a secular version of collective human insanity.

What is to be DONE?


There's a hint of an answer to that in Arthur Koestler's "The Ghost in The Machine'.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ghost_in_the_Machine



We've done the primitive, triune brain dodge already, pal.

https://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1671057927/100#100


You never did answer my question:

On what basis do you propose we examine the reasons for various opposing political philosophies /ideologies, even among relatively homogeneous populations, other than by a consideration of brain physiology, and the associated behaviours resulting from instinct versus ego and  - a distant last - rationality? 
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1 ... 12 13 14 15 16 ... 73
Send Topic Print