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Lisa Jones

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Re: Zionism
Reply #30 - Dec 22^nd, 2022 at 4:46pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2022 at 2:36pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2022 at 10:40am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Dec 21^st, 2022 at 4:14pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 21^st, 2022 at 4:02pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Dec 21^st, 2022 at 3:38pm:

Biden is adamantly pro Jewish AND pro Zionist even NOW!

People who are pro Biden are not focused on that....they're still focused on Trump.

1. The people you imagine prove/support your thesis, no doubt.

2. Like I said, forget Trump: Biden wants a 2-state solution, Zionists want the whole of Palestine

1. I must be "imagining" the people on the website ozpolitic.com

2. Biden recurringly claims he's a Zionist over a long period .... spanning decades in fact.

My question to you: Are YOU claiming that Biden is lying OR are you claiming that Biden does not know the definition of Zionism? Which is it?

And I still can't get a straight answer to the above question either.

Already addressed: we don't know what is Biden's definition of Zionism, but we know he supports a 2-state solution, also the official UN and US position.

Is that compatible with the Zionist position? Are there several Zionist stances re the 2-state solution?

Quote:

Oh and stop trying to ignore my links (which clearly back up my posts) by conveniently excluding them when responding to me!

I don't need to read your links because they are irrelevant, for the reasons pointed out by me, above.

Quote:

It's time we ALL faced reality OzPol!

Biden is adamantly pro Jewish AND pro Zionist even NOW!
Listen to him ..

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3fGQBFtQoXU

https://m.youtube.com/shorts/-PmzCOVKsAg

I haven't listened.I'm interested in ending the illegal occupation of the West Bank, and I heard Biden say (a month or two ago) he wants a 2-state solution.

Does Biden reject a Palestinian state alongside Israel, in those links?

Now you know why you need to click on those links I've kindly provided to you (a few times now) and listen to what Democrat US President Biden stated (and still maintains).

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If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free.

HYPATIA - Greek philosopher, mathematician and astronomer (370 - 415)

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Zionism
Reply #31 - Dec 22^nd, 2022 at 4:59pm

Lisa Jones wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2022 at 4:46pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2022 at 2:36pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2022 at 10:40am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Dec 21^st, 2022 at 4:14pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 21^st, 2022 at 4:02pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Dec 21^st, 2022 at 3:38pm:

Biden is adamantly pro Jewish AND pro Zionist even NOW!

People who are pro Biden are not focused on that....they're still focused on Trump.

1. The people you imagine prove/support your thesis, no doubt.

2. Like I said, forget Trump: Biden wants a 2-state solution, Zionists want the whole of Palestine

1. I must be "imagining" the people on the website ozpolitic.com

2. Biden recurringly claims he's a Zionist over a long period .... spanning decades in fact.

My question to you: Are YOU claiming that Biden is lying OR are you claiming that Biden does not know the definition of Zionism? Which is it?

And I still can't get a straight answer to the above question either.

Already addressed: we don't know what is Biden's definition of Zionism, but we know he supports a 2-state solution, also the official UN and US position.

Is that compatible with the Zionist position? Are there several Zionist stances re the 2-state solution?

Quote:

Oh and stop trying to ignore my links (which clearly back up my posts) by conveniently excluding them when responding to me!

I don't need to read your links because they are irrelevant, for the reasons pointed out by me, above.

Quote:

It's time we ALL faced reality OzPol!

Biden is adamantly pro Jewish AND pro Zionist even NOW!
Listen to him ..

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3fGQBFtQoXU

https://m.youtube.com/shorts/-PmzCOVKsAg

I haven't listened.I'm interested in ending the illegal occupation of the West Bank, and I heard Biden say (a month or two ago) he wants a 2-state solution.

Does Biden reject a Palestinian state alongside Israel, in those links?

Now you know why you need to click on those links I've kindly provided to you (a few times now) and listen to what Democrat US President Biden stated (and still maintains).

Pretty please, can you tell us what he stated ....don't be shy.... I know he said he wants a 2-state solution, as recently as a month ago (I heard him on radio).

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Frank

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Re: Zionism
Reply #32 - Dec 22^nd, 2022 at 5:32pm

issuevoter wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2022 at 3:49pm:

I don't see any reason to believe a two state solution would succeed. The first thing necessary would be an end to violence. Ain't gonna happen. The "Two State" idea provides "world leaders" (hate that term) with a posture that sounds like they have a plan. They don't. The problem in the Middle East is religion combined with tribalism. Anyone who has listened to "world leaders" waffle on about Palestine for their entire life, will just tune out, unless they are very young.

Indeed.

The existence of Israel is an affront to Islam. The Palestinians are used by the other Muslims as fodder for stoking the resentment caused by that affront.

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Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49042 At my desk.	Re: Zionism Reply #33 - Dec 22^nd, 2022 at 6:30pm We even had a Muslim on here saying it was imperative for Palestinians to keep the violence going and avoid making peace in order to justify the inevitable glorious military victory over Israel.
Back to top	People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words. IP Logged

Lisa Jones Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 39047 Sydney Gender:	Re: Zionism Reply #34 - Dec 22^nd, 2022 at 8:09pm freediver wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2022 at 6:30pm: We even had a Muslim on here saying it was imperative for Palestinians to keep the violence going and avoid making peace in order to justify the inevitable glorious military victory over Israel. I think that idiot may still be around (but dressed in different clothes these days).
Back to top	If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free. HYPATIA - Greek philosopher, mathematician and astronomer (370 - 415) IP Logged

wombatwoody

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Wombat NSW

Re: Zionism
Reply #35 - Dec 23^rd, 2022 at 5:12am

freediver wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2022 at 7:27am:

wombatwoody wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2022 at 6:32am:

Quote:

What exactly do you think they are being deprived of?

WTF? Did you not see that UN report linked above?

No.

Why not?

Quote:

Did you read it?

Of course I did. Sheeeessh!

Quote:

Do you understand it?

FFS, a 12 year old could understand it. What are you on about?

Nah, forget it... it's just more silliness from FleaDiver.

So I'll ask you this:

Why do you support Israel after all their treachery against the West in general and the US in particular?

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We are benefiting from ... the attack on the Twin Towers and Pentagon, and the American struggle in Iraq.

Benjamin Netanyahu, quoted in Ma’ariv, 16 April 2008

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wombatwoody

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Re: Zionism
Reply #36 - Dec 23^rd, 2022 at 5:59am

Lisa Jones wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2022 at 10:58am:

FMD Woody! Is the above link the ridiculous tripe you are saying is a UN linked document??

Ridiculous tripe? Dear oh dear...

Quote:

Or is it the other link you provided before it?

This first link in Reply #17. Read the first part:

Quote:

Israel is criticized for violating the right to equality in a new report by the UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination (CERD).

An advance version of the CERD report indicates that racial prejudice can be found in almost every facet of Israeli life (“Concluding observations of the Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination,” 9 March 2012 [PDF]).

CERD is a body of legal specialists who monitor the implementation of the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination, which states that any doctrine of superiority based on racial differentiation is scientifically false, morally condemnable, socially unjust and dangerous.

Lisa Jones wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2022 at 10:58am:

It's not you bloody liar! Freediver is right in questioning you about your link/S.

BOTH are from this well known nutter --> Dr Israel Shahak !!

You're all mixed up. The first link in Reply #17 is by Adri Nieuwhof and Mireille Fanon Mendès-France and the second is by Ariel Gold.

And the link in Reply #19 - I prefaced it by saying "Additionally"

Try to keep up.

Quote:

So let's take a closer look at the nutter you are relying on for a little credibility Woody!

"As a public intellectual, Israel Shahak was accused of fabricating the incidents he reported, of blaming the victim, of distorting the normative meaning of Jewish religious texts, and of misrepresenting Jewish belief and law. Paul Bogdanor claimed that Shahak "regaled his audience with a stream of outrageous libels, ludicrous fabrications, and transparent hoaxes. As each successive allegation was exposed and discredited, he would simply proceed to a new invention."

And which rabid Jewish/Zionist site did you pull that from?

Prof. Shahak was a Polish-born Israeli Professor of Chemistry at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, and a renowned scholar, secular humanist and peace activist, and was respected and endorsed by great intellectuals like Noam Chomsky and Gore Vidal.

Here he is being interviewed about his book, Jewish History, Jewish Religion: The Weight of Three Thousand Years

Noam Chomsky and Israel Shahak spoke together at MIT in 1994. They discussed Jewish fundamentalism and Israeli policy

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We are benefiting from ... the attack on the Twin Towers and Pentagon, and the American struggle in Iraq.

Benjamin Netanyahu, quoted in Ma’ariv, 16 April 2008

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wombatwoody

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Wombat NSW

Re: Zionism
Reply #37 - Dec 23^rd, 2022 at 6:06am

Lisa Jones wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2022 at 10:58am:

this well known nutter --> Dr Israel Shahak !!

Prof. Shahak's been vindicated by Dr. Yvonne Karimi-Schmidt, Professor of International Law, University of Graz, Institute of International Law.

https://uni-graz.academia.edu/YvonneKarimiSchmidt

Dr. Yvonne Karimi-Schmidt's 2001 paper, Foundations of Civil and Political Rights in Israel and the Occupied Territories

In 1992, the Knesset enacted the Basic Law: Human Dignity and Freedom and the Basic Law: Freedom of Occupation, which, for the first time contain a protection of some civil rights and fundamental liberties, and which authorize the courts to exercise judicial review of Knesset laws. However, even with the passage of these two basic laws on human rights, there exists no law in Israel that protects the right to equality for all citizens on a constitutional level.

On the contrary, both basic laws emphasize the ethnicity of the state of Israel as a Jewish state establishing that "the object of this Basic Law is to protect human dignity and freedom/freedom of occupation in order to entrench the values of the state of Israel as a Jewish and democratic state in a Basic Law." Due to this strong emphasis on the ethnic character of the state of Israel to be "a Jewish state" these basic laws are discriminatory in their nature and totally ignore the fact that not the entire population of the state of Israel is made up of Jews, but rather exists of one fifth - i.e. approximately 20% - of Palestinian Arab citizens...

There is also no law that specifically protects equal rights for the Palestinian Arab minority in Israel...

The Israeli government does not recognize the Palestinian Arab citizens (approximately 20% of the total population) as a national minority, but rather refers to them as "Israeli Arabs" or by their religious affiliation (Moslem, Christian, Druzes).

Important to mention is the fact that up until today all Israeli governments discriminated and still discriminate against the Palestinian Arab minority in a systematic way and in all fields...

The law in Israel subjects the Palestinian Arab citizens to three types of systematic discrimination, namely:

1. Direct discrimination against non-Jews within the law itself.

2. Indirect discrimination through so called "neutral" laws and criteria which apply principally to Palestinians.

3. Institutional discrimination through a legal framework that facilitates a systematic pattern of privileges

Dr. Yvonne Karimi-Schmidt, 2001 Foundations of Civil and Political Rights in Israel and the Occupied Territories

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We are benefiting from ... the attack on the Twin Towers and Pentagon, and the American struggle in Iraq.

Benjamin Netanyahu, quoted in Ma’ariv, 16 April 2008

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freediver

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Re: Zionism
Reply #38 - Dec 23^rd, 2022 at 7:05am

wombatwoody wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2022 at 5:12am:

freediver wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2022 at 7:27am:

wombatwoody wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2022 at 6:32am:

Quote:

What exactly do you think they are being deprived of?

WTF? Did you not see that UN report linked above?

No.

Why not?

It would be a waste of time. It certainly hasn't helped you understand the issue.

What exactly do you think Israel is depriving it's Muslim citizens of that means it is not a democracy?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: Zionism
Reply #39 - Dec 23^rd, 2022 at 7:16am

Zionism?

It's not a thing anymore.

Israel has made deep inroads into signing peace deals and trade cooperation with the Arab world - the latest being a peace and diplomatic normalisation treaty with the UAE, the process of normalisation and peace with Morocco with, the biggest deal - peace with Saudi Arabia - in the planning stages.

But you'd have to read something to realise this.

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Lisa Jones

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Re: Zionism
Reply #40 - Dec 23^rd, 2022 at 10:32am

wombatwoody wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2022 at 5:59am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2022 at 10:58am:

FMD Woody! Is the above link the ridiculous tripe you are saying is a UN linked document??

Ridiculous tripe? Dear oh dear...

Quote:

Or is it the other link you provided before it?

This first link in Reply #17. Read the first part:

Quote:

Israel is criticized for violating the right to equality in a new report by the UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination (CERD).

An advance version of the CERD report indicates that racial prejudice can be found in almost every facet of Israeli life (“Concluding observations of the Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination,” 9 March 2012 [PDF]).

CERD is a body of legal specialists who monitor the implementation of the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination, which states that any doctrine of superiority based on racial differentiation is scientifically false, morally condemnable, socially unjust and dangerous.

Lisa Jones wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2022 at 10:58am:

It's not you bloody liar! Freediver is right in questioning you about your link/S.

BOTH are from this well known nutter --> Dr Israel Shahak !!

You're all mixed up. The first link in Reply #17 is by Adri Nieuwhof and Mireille Fanon Mendès-France and the second is by Ariel Gold.

And the link in Reply #19 - I prefaced it by saying "Additionally"

Try to keep up.

Quote:

So let's take a closer look at the nutter you are relying on for a little credibility Woody!

"As a public intellectual, Israel Shahak was accused of fabricating the incidents he reported, of blaming the victim, of distorting the normative meaning of Jewish religious texts, and of misrepresenting Jewish belief and law. Paul Bogdanor claimed that Shahak "regaled his audience with a stream of outrageous libels, ludicrous fabrications, and transparent hoaxes. As each successive allegation was exposed and discredited, he would simply proceed to a new invention."

And which rabid Jewish/Zionist site did you pull that from?

Wiki. I think.

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If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free.

HYPATIA - Greek philosopher, mathematician and astronomer (370 - 415)

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Lisa Jones

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Re: Zionism
Reply #41 - Dec 23^rd, 2022 at 10:37am

wombatwoody wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2022 at 6:06am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2022 at 10:58am:

this well known nutter --> Dr Israel Shahak !!

Prof. Shahak's been vindicated by Dr. Yvonne Karimi-Schmidt, Professor of International Law, University of Graz, Institute of International Law.

https://uni-graz.academia.edu/YvonneKarimiSchmidt

Dr. Yvonne Karimi-Schmidt's 2001 paper, Foundations of Civil and Political Rights in Israel and the Occupied Territories

In 1992, the Knesset enacted the Basic Law: Human Dignity and Freedom and the Basic Law: Freedom of Occupation, which, for the first time contain a protection of some civil rights and fundamental liberties, and which authorize the courts to exercise judicial review of Knesset laws. However, even with the passage of these two basic laws on human rights, there exists no law in Israel that protects the right to equality for all citizens on a constitutional level.

On the contrary, both basic laws emphasize the ethnicity of the state of Israel as a Jewish state establishing that "the object of this Basic Law is to protect human dignity and freedom/freedom of occupation in order to entrench the values of the state of Israel as a Jewish and democratic state in a Basic Law." Due to this strong emphasis on the ethnic character of the state of Israel to be "a Jewish state" these basic laws are discriminatory in their nature and totally ignore the fact that not the entire population of the state of Israel is made up of Jews, but rather exists of one fifth - i.e. approximately 20% - of Palestinian Arab citizens...

There is also no law that specifically protects equal rights for the Palestinian Arab minority in Israel...

The Israeli government does not recognize the Palestinian Arab citizens (approximately 20% of the total population) as a national minority, but rather refers to them as "Israeli Arabs" or by their religious affiliation (Moslem, Christian, Druzes).

Important to mention is the fact that up until today all Israeli governments discriminated and still discriminate against the Palestinian Arab minority in a systematic way and in all fields...

The law in Israel subjects the Palestinian Arab citizens to three types of systematic discrimination, namely:

1. Direct discrimination against non-Jews within the law itself.

2. Indirect discrimination through so called "neutral" laws and criteria which apply principally to Palestinians.

3. Institutional discrimination through a legal framework that facilitates a systematic pattern of privileges

Dr. Yvonne Karimi-Schmidt, 2001 Foundations of Civil and Political Rights in Israel and the Occupied Territories

Ha! Groggy (and only Groggy) desperately uses seriously old material. In this case : it's 22 yrs old.

Woody are you Groggy's twin brother by any chance? Asking for a friend.

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If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free.

HYPATIA - Greek philosopher, mathematician and astronomer (370 - 415)

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Zionism
Reply #42 - Dec 23^rd, 2022 at 10:41am

Frank wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2022 at 5:32pm:

issuevoter wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2022 at 3:49pm:

I don't see any reason to believe a two state solution would succeed. The first thing necessary would be an end to violence. Ain't gonna happen. The "Two State" idea provides "world leaders" (hate that term) with a posture that sounds like they have a plan. They don't. The problem in the Middle East is religion combined with tribalism. Anyone who has listened to "world leaders" waffle on about Palestine for their entire life, will just tune out, unless they are very young.

Indeed.

The existence of Israel is an affront to Islam. The Palestinians are used by the other Muslims as fodder for stoking the resentment caused by that affront.

But what of the Palestinians themselves, do they just have to accept dispossession - like Oz blacks have to accept it? The UN doesn't think so: UN res 181 and 242 are still extant.

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« Last Edit: Dec 23^rd, 2022 at 10:47am by thegreatdivide »

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Zionism
Reply #43 - Dec 23^rd, 2022 at 10:54am

freediver wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2022 at 7:05am:

wombatwoody wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2022 at 5:12am:

freediver wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2022 at 7:27am:

wombatwoody wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2022 at 6:32am:

Quote:

What exactly do you think they are being deprived of?

WTF? Did you not see that UN report linked above?

No.

Why not?

It would be a waste of time. It certainly hasn't helped you understand the issue.

What exactly do you think Israel is depriving it's Muslim citizens of that means it is not a democracy?

You mean the democracy that has just elected the most RW government in its history?

It will be interesting to see how relations with Palestinians develop.

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freediver

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Posts: 49042
At my desk.

Re: Zionism
Reply #44 - Dec 23^rd, 2022 at 10:59am

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2022 at 10:54am:

freediver wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2022 at 7:05am:

wombatwoody wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2022 at 5:12am:

freediver wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2022 at 7:27am:

wombatwoody wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2022 at 6:32am:

Quote:

What exactly do you think they are being deprived of?

WTF? Did you not see that UN report linked above?

No.

Why not?

It would be a waste of time. It certainly hasn't helped you understand the issue.

What exactly do you think Israel is depriving it's Muslim citizens of that means it is not a democracy?

You mean the democracy that has just elected the most RW government in its history?

It will be interesting to see how relations with Palestinians develop.

Do you think Israel is a democracy?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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