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Zionism (Read 27589 times)
freediver
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Re: Zionism
Reply #630 - May 6th, 2023 at 7:46am
 
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but understood in Islam to be  "the farthest mosque"


The verse refers to the "farther" mosque.

Quote:
You want to  overturn that 1400 year old interpretation


What is the earliest reference you know of to Jerusalem being the third holiest city in Islam?
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Re: Zionism
Reply #631 - May 6th, 2023 at 10:52am
 
freediver wrote on May 6th, 2023 at 7:46am:
Quote:
but understood in Islam to be  "the farthest mosque"


The verse refers to the "farther" mosque.


actually the Koran I have reads:

17,1."Glory to Him who made His servant" (Muhammad) travel by night from the sacred place of worship" (in Mecca) "to the furthest place of worship" (in Jerusalem), "whose surroundings We have blessed"....

Followed by  17,2: "We had also given Moses the Scripture, and made it a guide for the Children of Israel. Entrust yourselves to no-one but Me, 17,3: you descendants of those We carried with Noah, he was truly a thankful servant."

You still want to argue Jerusalen is not "the furthest place of worship" in 17,1?

Note the pronouns in capitals all refer to Allah who of course also created the "Scripture" (Jewish bible)  which was "a guide to the Children of Israel"; the Koran itself is merely the last revelation of God, transmitted by The (last) Prophet (according to Moslems).

Quote:
What is the earliest reference you know of to Jerusalem being the third holiest city in Islam?


I already quoted from the 8th century hadith which said Jerusalem was the holiest place in Palestine (then under Moslem rule).

I expect you will claim the absence of 3rd most holy in that quote will some how prove Jerusalem is not 'prime real estate' in Islam......
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« Last Edit: May 6th, 2023 at 11:12am by thegreatdivide »  
 
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Re: Zionism
Reply #632 - May 6th, 2023 at 11:05am
 
Quote:
I already quoted from the 8th century hadith which said Jerusalem was the holiest place in Palestine (then under Moslem rule).


I expect half the world agrees with you on that. But that is not what you you claimed. Would you like to try answering the question that was actually asked?

What is the earliest reference you know of to Jerusalem being the third holiest city in Islam?
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Re: Zionism
Reply #633 - May 6th, 2023 at 11:24am
 
freediver wrote on May 6th, 2023 at 11:05am:
Quote:
I already quoted from the 8th century hadith which said Jerusalem was the holiest place in Palestine (then under Moslem rule).


I expect half the world agrees with you on that. But that is not what you you claimed. Would you like to try answering the question that was actually asked?


What relevance has your question to the fact of Jeruslam's prime importance in Islam,  as noted in  17,1. 

Quote:
What is the earliest reference you know of to Jerusalem being the third holiest city in Islam?


I don't know, don't particularly care; my argument is that since the 8th century (when Islam conquered half the world), "half the world" has agreed Jerusalem is a holy site in Islam.

And your instincts re possession of land  are going to continue to make a fool of you.
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Re: Zionism
Reply #634 - May 6th, 2023 at 11:25am
 
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I don't know, don't particularly care; my argument is


Your argument changes with every post, when you realise how full of crap you are and decide to make up something else.
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Re: Zionism
Reply #635 - May 6th, 2023 at 11:34am
 
freediver wrote on May 6th, 2023 at 11:25am:
Quote:
I don't know, don't particularly care; my argument is


Your argument changes with every post, when you realise how full of crap you are and decide to make up something else.


I wondered where your desperation would take you; blind instinct rendering you incapable of honest analysis.

Feel free to tell us when Islam first mentioned Jerusalem was the 3rd holiest site , as if it has any relevance for denying the obvious fact of that Jerusalem - the city of the OT's prophets, all predecessors of The Prophet, is a holy site in Islam, and the holiest in Palestine ie "(17,1) "whose surroundings We have blessed". 
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Re: Zionism
Reply #636 - May 6th, 2023 at 11:44am
 
A couple of centuries ago a local Muslim decided he could make money out of it by talking up its significance in Islam. It worked. That's how a city that is not even named in the Quran came to be the third holiest in the religion.
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Re: Zionism
Reply #637 - May 6th, 2023 at 12:10pm
 
freediver wrote on May 6th, 2023 at 11:44am:
A couple of centuries ago a local Muslim decided he could make money out of it by talking up its significance in Islam. It worked.


Tell us more.

Note: obviously Mecca, the place of the final Revelation, and Medina, the place of Muhammad's burial are likely to be No 1 and 2 respectively..... leading to the place mentioned in 17,1 as the 3rd.....

Quote:
That's how a city that is not even named in the Quran came to be the third holiest in the religion.


Care to name a city other than Jerusalem - "whose surroundings We have blessed" - of which Noah and Moses were prophets  (17,2/3)?

Oh ....the possession of land instinct...what tangled webs we weave..

That's why we need a UN capable of implementing  international law, in this case UN res. 181 and 242.   
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« Last Edit: May 6th, 2023 at 12:16pm by thegreatdivide »  
 
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Re: Zionism
Reply #638 - May 6th, 2023 at 12:24pm
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_Mount

The Qur'an does not mention the exact location of "the furthest place of prayer", and the city of Jerusalem is not mentioned by any of its names in the Qur'an.[154][140] According to the Encyclopaedia of Islam, the phrase was originally understood as a reference to a site in the heavens.[155]

Some scholars point to the political motives of the Umayyad dynasty which led to the sanctification of Jerusalem in Islam. According to the Encyclopaedia of Islam, the Night Journey was associated with Jerusalem by the Umayyads as a political means to advance the glory of Jerusalem to compete with the glory of the sanctuary in Mecca then controlled by Abd Allah ibn al-Zubayr.[155][160] The construction of the Dome of the Rock was interpreted by Ya'qubi, a 9th-century Abbasid historian, as an Umayyad attempt to redirect the Hajj from Mecca to Jerusalem by creating a rival to the Ka'aba.

Other academics attribute the holiness of Jerusalem to the rise and expansion of a certain type of literary genre, known as al-Fadhail or history of cities. The Fadhail of Jerusalem inspired Muslims, especially during the Umayyad period, to embellish the sanctity of the city beyond its status in the holy texts.[162] Based on the writings of the eighth century historians Al-Waqidi[163] and al-Azraqi, some scholars have suggested that al-Aqsa Mosque mentioned in the Qur'an is not in Jerusalem but in the village of al-Ju'ranah, 18 miles northeast of Mecca.[157][164][165]

Later medieval scripts, as well as modern-day political tracts, tend to classify al-Aqsa Mosque as the third holiest site in Islam.
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Re: Zionism
Reply #639 - May 7th, 2023 at 12:30pm
 
freediver wrote on May 6th, 2023 at 12:24pm:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_Mount

The Qur'an does not mention the exact location of "the furthest place of prayer", and the city of Jerusalem is not mentioned by any of its names in the Qur'an.[154][140] According to the Encyclopaedia of Islam, the phrase was originally understood as a reference to a site in the heavens.[155]


...despite the fact of the 8th century hadith  I quoted, which nominates Jersusalem as the "holiest site in Palestine"......

Quote:
Some scholars point to the political motives of the Umayyad dynasty which led to the sanctification of Jerusalem in Islam. According to the Encyclopaedia of Islam, the Night Journey was associated with Jerusalem by the Umayyads as a political means to advance the glory of Jerusalem to compete with the glory of the sanctuary in Mecca then controlled by Abd Allah ibn al-Zubayr.[155][160] The construction of the Dome of the Rock was interpreted by Ya'qubi, a 9th-century Abbasid historian, as an Umayyad attempt to redirect the Hajj from Mecca to Jerusalem by creating a rival to the Ka'aba.


Oh..."the tangled webs we weave" when trying to establish political sovereignty....!

Quote:
Other academics attribute the holiness of Jerusalem to the rise and expansion of a certain type of literary genre, known as al-Fadhail or history of cities. The Fadhail of Jerusalem inspired Muslims, especially during the Umayyad period, to embellish the sanctity of the city beyond its status in the holy texts.[162] Based on the writings of the eighth century historians Al-Waqidi[163] and al-Azraqi, some scholars have suggested that al-Aqsa Mosque mentioned in the Qur'an is not in Jerusalem but in the village of al-Ju'ranah, 18 miles northeast of Mecca.[157][164][165]


But are they correct; and why would the scholars want to suggest that.....given Jerusalem is the home of the Islamic prophets before Muhammad.

Quote:
Later medieval scripts, as well as modern-day political tracts, tend to classify al-Aqsa Mosque as the third holiest site in Islam.


Ok, so what to do about the present conflict...?
Biden says he supports a two-state solution, but he is content to do nothing to make it happen, while the present atrocities continue on both sides. 



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Re: Zionism
Reply #640 - May 7th, 2023 at 1:34pm
 
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...despite the fact of the 8th century hadith  I quoted, which nominates Jersusalem as the "holiest site in Palestine"......


Again, not the same thing.

Quote:
But are they correct; and why would the scholars want to suggest that.....given Jerusalem is the home of the Islamic prophets before Muhammad.


Perhaps they are interested in the truth.

Quote:
Ok, so what to do about the present conflict...?


Start by acknowledging the real cause. You have named many, most rather fanciful, but you seem to be tiptoeing around the most obvious.
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Re: Zionism
Reply #641 - May 7th, 2023 at 1:48pm
 
freediver wrote on May 7th, 2023 at 1:34pm:
Quote:
...despite the fact of the 8th century hadith  I quoted, which nominates Jersusalem as the "holiest site in Palestine"......


Again, not the same thing.


which is: Islam claims Jerusalem.

Quote:
Perhaps they are interested in the truth.


They are certainly interested in proving Islam doesn't claim Jerusalem.

Quote:
Ok, so what to do about the present conflict...?


Start by acknowledging the real cause. You have named many, most rather fanciful, but you seem to be tiptoeing around the most obvious.


The UN partitioned Palestine against the wishes of the Arab (Islamic) world.

The UN should not have done that, until a secure partition as envisioned in res. 181 and 242 could be guaranteed.

What is the "most obvious" solution to the current unrest?
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Re: Zionism
Reply #642 - May 7th, 2023 at 2:01pm
 
Quote:
What is the "most obvious" solution to the current unrest?


Cause. Not solution. You cannot hope to find a solution to a problem while you are afraid to acknowledge the cause. That is why we see so many hopelessly naive solutions trotted out.
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Re: Zionism
Reply #643 - May 7th, 2023 at 2:08pm
 
freediver wrote on May 7th, 2023 at 2:01pm:
Quote:
What is the "most obvious" solution to the current unrest?


Cause. Not solution.
 

Can't you see your error there?

The cause is not the solution....


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Re: Zionism
Reply #644 - May 7th, 2023 at 2:33pm
 
thegreatdivide wrote on May 7th, 2023 at 2:08pm:
freediver wrote on May 7th, 2023 at 2:01pm:
Quote:
What is the "most obvious" solution to the current unrest?


Cause. Not solution.
 

Can't you see your error there?

The cause is not the solution....




Ah, so you think we should skip straight to the solution and not worry about what the cause of the problem is? So that we can bring peace to the middle east overnight?
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