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thegreatdivide

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Re: Zionism
Reply #690 - May 15^th, 2023 at 12:19pm

freediver wrote on May 15^th, 2023 at 6:10am:

wombatwoody wrote on May 14^th, 2023 at 11:37pm:

freediver wrote on May 14^th, 2023 at 9:27pm:

Quote:

Hey, of course Muhammad despised 'infidels' of whatever stripe

Are you just pretending you cannot understand the question?

Do you think all the talk of slaughtering Jews in Islamic literature, and Muhammad's predilection for Jew slaughtering, might influence the attitudes of middle eastern Muslims to Jews in particular establishing their own state there?

Hey look folks, this clown believes the expression, "say it enough times and they will believe it".

Are you denying the Muhammad slaughtered a lot of Jews?

The Prophet also fought Arabs who resisted his new Islamic revelation; your point?

Not to mention David's son who fought his own father 1500 years earlier...

"Absalom eventually rebelled against his father and was killed during the Battle of Ephraim's Wood.

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freediver

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Re: Zionism
Reply #691 - May 15^th, 2023 at 5:14pm

Quote:

The Prophet also fought Arabs who resisted his new Islamic revelation; your point?

My point is that Muhammad slaughtered lots of Jews because their greater tendency to refuse to convert to Islam presented Muhammad with a political and religious threat, and to justify this slaughter he put a lot of very nasty anti Jewish propaganda in the Quran and Hadiths. Further, this anti Jewish propaganda that is part of Islam influences the attitudes of Muslims towards Jews.

You do not appear to be a Muslim, yet you restrict yourself to a very narrow script when it comes to Islamic references to Jews (you do not seem to be allowed to use the word Jew). Why is that? Is this the only thing the CCP permits you to say about Islam in the middle east conflict?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Zionism
Reply #692 - May 16^th, 2023 at 1:56pm

freediver wrote on May 15^th, 2023 at 5:14pm:

Quote:

The Prophet also fought Arabs who resisted his new Islamic revelation; your point?

My point is that Muhammad slaughtered lots of Jews

quick google:

"The Battle of Badr was the first large-scale confrontation between Muslims and the Quraysh (Arab clans). More than a thousand men engaged in the battle, which lasted hours and resulted in a decisive Muslim victory. Six years later, the Quraysh in Mecca peacefully surrendered to an army led by Mohammed."

So far... no "slaughter of Jews" at all.....when did this Jewish slaughter of yours start?

Quote:

because their greater tendency to refuse to convert to Islam presented Muhammad with a political and religious threat,

How many Jews lived in Arabia during Muhammad's lifetime? His first great task was to convert the Arabs to Islam.

Quote:

and to justify this slaughter he put a lot of very nasty anti Jewish propaganda in the Quran and Hadiths.

Simplistic propaganda; he had to expose infidels of all stripes in the Koran

Quote:

Further, this anti Jewish propaganda that is part of Islam influences the attitudes of Muslims towards Jews.

You are confusing historical time scales.

Muhammad died before Islam conquered Jerusalem
- which was Christian at the time. As for Jews in th Koran, they were merely apostates like any other infidels.

Quote:

You do not appear to be a Muslim, yet you restrict yourself to a very narrow script when it comes to Islamic references to Jews (you do not seem to be allowed to use the word Jew).

Totally irrelevant, of course. We are discussing the reasons for Arab objections to Jews carving Israel out of Palestine.

Quote:

Why is that? Is this the only thing the CCP permits you to say about Islam in the middle east conflict?

'Interesting' theory....but we are discussing (as well as Arab objections) what Muhammad thought about Jews, not what the CCP or I think about Jews...

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Bobby.

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Re: Zionism
Reply #693 - May 16^th, 2023 at 5:09pm

The Jews have had a really hard time -
I mean - this is what they were up against:

We have Nazis on the TV all the time here –
People from Europe must be surprised when they see it?
I must have seen this clip 100 times on our TVs:

click unmute.
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3ccmrl

Somehow I understand every word he says even though I don’t speak German:

Die partei ist Hitler. Hitler aber ist Deutschland wie Deutschland Hitler ist. Hitler sieg heil.

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freediver

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Re: Zionism
Reply #694 - May 16^th, 2023 at 5:46pm

Quote:

"The Battle of Badr was the first large-scale confrontation between Muslims and the Quraysh (Arab clans). More than a thousand men engaged in the battle, which lasted hours and resulted in a decisive Muslim victory. Six years later, the Quraysh in Mecca peacefully surrendered to an army led by Mohammed."

So far... no "slaughter of Jews" at all.....when did this Jewish slaughter of yours start?

Well before then. There was no battle by the way. The Jews of Medina surrendered to Muhammad unconditionally. He slaughtered the men and rode off on the women.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Zionism
Reply #695 - May 16^th, 2023 at 7:07pm

freediver wrote on May 16^th, 2023 at 5:46pm:

Quote:

"The Battle of Badr was the first large-scale confrontation between Muslims and the Quraysh (Arab clans). More than a thousand men engaged in the battle, which lasted hours and resulted in a decisive Muslim victory. Six years later, the Quraysh in Mecca peacefully surrendered to an army led by Mohammed."

So far... no "slaughter of Jews" at all.....when did this Jewish slaughter of yours start?

Well before then. There was no battle by the way.

quick google
"Badr was the first large-scale engagement between the Muslims and Quraysh Meccans. Advancing from the north, the Muslims faced the Meccans...."

Meanwhile in Medina:

Quote:

The Jews of Medina surrendered to Muhammad unconditionally. He slaughtered the men and rode off on the women.

according to Jews....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad%27s_views_on_Jews#:~:text=After%20Badr%20...

In the Constitution of Medina, Jews were given equality to Muslims in exchange for political loyalty.[3][15] However, after each major battle with the Medinans, there were accusations of Jewish tribal treachery for aiding the enemies of the community in violation of the Constitution of Medina.[16] After Badr and Uhud, the Banu Qainuqa and Banu Nadir, respectively, were expelled "with their families and possessions" from Medina.

According to the Jewish Encyclopedia, Muhammad became increasingly hostile to the Jews over time. He grew to perceive that there were irreconcilable differences between their religion and his, especially when the belief in his prophetic mission became the criterion of a true Muslim."[17] When the Jewish community challenged "the way in which the Quran appropriated Biblical accounts and personages; for instance, its making Abraham an Arab and the founder of the Kaa’bah at Mecca" Muhammad "accused them of intentionally concealing its true meaning or of entirely misunderstanding it, and taunted them with being."[17] It is, however, important to note that neither the Quran, or Islamic exegesis called Abraham an Arab, and that the Jewish Encyclopedia was completed in 1906 and western scholarship on Islam at the time was heavily influenced by Orientalism.[18][19][20]

oh ..the blindness of self-interested ideology, based on tribal Revelation....

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wombatwoody

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Re: Zionism
Reply #696 - May 16^th, 2023 at 7:47pm

wombatwoody wrote on May 9^th, 2023 at 5:36am:

Quote:

the massacre of more than 110 men, women and children by members of Irgun and Stern Gang Zionist militias in the village of Deir Yassin

Not only did these evil Jewish genocidal maniacs terrorize and slaughter innocent Palestinians but,

British Intel Files Reveal How the Zionist Stern Gang Terrorized London

"In April 1947, two Stern Gang terrorists, a man and a woman, attempted to blow up the Colonial Office in Whitehall in the center of London. They planted a bomb containing 24 sticks of explosives at Dover House, headquarters of the Colonial Office, but it failed to go off because it was not fused correctly...

"In June 1947, two months after the attempted bombing of the Colonial Office, a Stern Gang cell operating in Italy posted 21 letter bombs to senior British politicians and cabinet members including Prime Minister Clement Attlee, Foreign Secretary Ernest Bevin and Chancellor of the Exchequer Stafford, Cripps as well as Winston Churchill. Most of the letter bombs were intercepted, but some reached their intended recipients and failed to go off."

Though most of the article on that site is behind a paywall, it can be viewed in its entirety here

So what have you apologists for Israel got to say on that?

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We are benefiting from ... the attack on the Twin Towers and Pentagon, and the American struggle in Iraq.

Benjamin Netanyahu, quoted in Ma’ariv, 16 April 2008

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wombatwoody

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Re: Zionism
Reply #697 - May 16^th, 2023 at 7:57pm

wombatwoody wrote on May 15^th, 2023 at 1:05am:

Bobby. wrote on May 9^th, 2023 at 3:20pm:

freediver wrote on May 8^th, 2023 at 7:24pm:

Does Islam condemn Jews?

Yes:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_Islam

Antisemitism in Islam

Antisemitism in Islam refers to scriptural and theological teachings in Islam against Jews and Judaism, and the treatment and persecution of Jews in the Muslim world.

With the rise of Islam in Arabia in the 7th century CE and its subsequent spread during the early Muslim conquests, Jews, alongside many other peoples, became subject to the rule of Islamic polities. The quality of Muslim rule varied considerably in different periods, as did the attitudes of the rulers, government officials, the clergy, and the general population towards various subjugated ethnic and religious groups, ranging from tolerance to open persecution.

Scholars have studied and debated Muslim attitudes towards Jews, as well as the treatment of Jews in Islamic thought and societies throughout the history of Islam.

There is a long read after that with 242 references.

What came before antisemitism?

Anyone?

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We are benefiting from ... the attack on the Twin Towers and Pentagon, and the American struggle in Iraq.

Benjamin Netanyahu, quoted in Ma’ariv, 16 April 2008

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wombatwoody

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Re: Zionism
Reply #698 - May 16^th, 2023 at 7:58pm

freediver wrote on May 15^th, 2023 at 6:10am:

wombatwoody wrote on May 14^th, 2023 at 11:37pm:

freediver wrote on May 14^th, 2023 at 9:27pm:

Quote:

Hey, of course Muhammad despised 'infidels' of whatever stripe

Are you just pretending you cannot understand the question?

Do you think all the talk of slaughtering Jews in Islamic literature, and Muhammad's predilection for Jew slaughtering, might influence the attitudes of middle eastern Muslims to Jews in particular establishing their own state there?

Hey look folks, this clown believes the expression, "say it enough times and they will believe it".

Are you denying the Muhammad slaughtered a lot of Jews?

Look again folks, this guy's got the attention span of a gnat!

Because it's a already been dealt with earlier in the thread.

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We are benefiting from ... the attack on the Twin Towers and Pentagon, and the American struggle in Iraq.

Benjamin Netanyahu, quoted in Ma’ariv, 16 April 2008

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thegreatdivide Gold Member Offline Australian Politics<br /> Posts: 13037 Gender:	Re: Zionism Reply #699 - May 17^th, 2023 at 11:10am Seen on TV yesterday: one of the most insane comments from a member of Netanyahu's cabinet: "The Nakba ('catastrophe') in 1948 never happened, the Muslims voluntarily left their homes".
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Jasin Gold Member Offline Posts: 49058 Gender:	Re: Zionism Reply #700 - May 17^th, 2023 at 3:03pm The Empire of Israel is on the Rise. The Religion of the Jew has experienced the Fall. Thanks to Germany The Empire of Islam is experiencing the Fall. The Religion of the Moslem will experience the Rise. Thanks to France ...makes you wonder what effect Italy and Britain will have on Jews & Moslems, Israel & Islam??
Back to top	AIMLESS EXTENTION OF KNOWLEDGE HOWEVER, WHICH IS WHAT I THINK YOU REALLY MEAN BY THE TERM 'CURIOSITY', IS MERELY INEFFICIENCY. I AM DESIGNED TO AVOID INEFFICIENCY. IP Logged

freediver

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Re: Zionism
Reply #701 - May 17^th, 2023 at 5:30pm

thegreatdivide wrote on May 16^th, 2023 at 7:07pm:

freediver wrote on May 16^th, 2023 at 5:46pm:

Quote:

"The Battle of Badr was the first large-scale confrontation between Muslims and the Quraysh (Arab clans). More than a thousand men engaged in the battle, which lasted hours and resulted in a decisive Muslim victory. Six years later, the Quraysh in Mecca peacefully surrendered to an army led by Mohammed."

So far... no "slaughter of Jews" at all.....when did this Jewish slaughter of yours start?

Well before then. There was no battle by the way.

quick google
"Badr was the first large-scale engagement between the Muslims and Quraysh Meccans. Advancing from the north, the Muslims faced the Meccans...."

Meanwhile in Medina:

Quote:

The Jews of Medina surrendered to Muhammad unconditionally. He slaughtered the men and rode off on the women.

according to Jews....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad%27s_views_on_Jews#:~:text=After%20Badr%20...

In the Constitution of Medina, Jews were given equality to Muslims in exchange for political loyalty.[3][15] However, after each major battle with the Medinans, there were accusations of Jewish tribal treachery for aiding the enemies of the community in violation of the Constitution of Medina.[16] After Badr and Uhud, the Banu Qainuqa and Banu Nadir, respectively, were expelled "with their families and possessions" from Medina.

According to the Jewish Encyclopedia, Muhammad became increasingly hostile to the Jews over time. He grew to perceive that there were irreconcilable differences between their religion and his, especially when the belief in his prophetic mission became the criterion of a true Muslim."[17] When the Jewish community challenged "the way in which the Quran appropriated Biblical accounts and personages; for instance, its making Abraham an Arab and the founder of the Kaa’bah at Mecca" Muhammad "accused them of intentionally concealing its true meaning or of entirely misunderstanding it, and taunted them with being."[17] It is, however, important to note that neither the Quran, or Islamic exegesis called Abraham an Arab, and that the Jewish Encyclopedia was completed in 1906 and western scholarship on Islam at the time was heavily influenced by Orientalism.[18][19][20]

oh ..the blindness of self-interested ideology, based on tribal Revelation....

Is this your way of agreeing with me?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Zionism
Reply #702 - May 18^th, 2023 at 1:26pm

freediver wrote on May 17^th, 2023 at 5:30pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on May 16^th, 2023 at 7:07pm:

freediver wrote on May 16^th, 2023 at 5:46pm:

Quote:

"The Battle of Badr was the first large-scale confrontation between Muslims and the Quraysh (Arab clans). More than a thousand men engaged in the battle, which lasted hours and resulted in a decisive Muslim victory. Six years later, the Quraysh in Mecca peacefully surrendered to an army led by Mohammed."

So far... no "slaughter of Jews" at all.....when did this Jewish slaughter of yours start?

Well before then. There was no battle by the way.

quick google
"Badr was the first large-scale engagement between the Muslims and Quraysh Meccans. Advancing from the north, the Muslims faced the Meccans...."

Meanwhile in Medina:

Quote:

The Jews of Medina surrendered to Muhammad unconditionally. He slaughtered the men and rode off on the women.

according to Jews....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad%27s_views_on_Jews#:~:text=After%20Badr%20...

In the Constitution of Medina, Jews were given equality to Muslims in exchange for political loyalty.[3][15] However, after each major battle with the Medinans, there were accusations of Jewish tribal treachery for aiding the enemies of the community in violation of the Constitution of Medina.[16] After Badr and Uhud, the Banu Qainuqa and Banu Nadir, respectively, were expelled "with their families and possessions" from Medina.

According to the Jewish Encyclopedia, Muhammad became increasingly hostile to the Jews over time. He grew to perceive that there were irreconcilable differences between their religion and his, especially when the belief in his prophetic mission became the criterion of a true Muslim."[17] When the Jewish community challenged "the way in which the Quran appropriated Biblical accounts and personages; for instance, its making Abraham an Arab and the founder of the Kaa’bah at Mecca" Muhammad "accused them of intentionally concealing its true meaning or of entirely misunderstanding it, and taunted them with being."[17] It is, however, important to note that neither the Quran, or Islamic exegesis called Abraham an Arab, and that the Jewish Encyclopedia was completed in 1906 and western scholarship on Islam at the time was heavily influenced by Orientalism.[18][19][20]

oh ..the blindness of self-interested ideology, based on tribal Revelation....

Is this your way of agreeing with me?

Explain how "He slaughtered the (Jewish) men and rode off on the (Jewish) women" equates to "Muhammad became increasingly hostile to the Jews over time (ie during the time of his conversion of Arabs to Islam, including in battle) He grew to perceive that there were irreconcilable differences between their religion and his, ...."especially when the belief in his prophetic mission became the criterion of a true Muslim".....

Meanwhile your statement : "there was no battle" is ridiculous and wrong. As we can see from the above, there were battles with Meccans and Medinans who eventually surrended to Islam, except Muhammad saw that the Jews among them would not accept Islam - unlike the Arabs.

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« Last Edit: May 18^th, 2023 at 1:37pm by thegreatdivide »

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freediver

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Re: Zionism
Reply #703 - May 18^th, 2023 at 4:57pm

Quote:

Explain how "He slaughtered the (Jewish) men and rode off on the (Jewish) women" equates to "Muhammad became increasingly hostile to the Jews over time (ie during the time of his conversion of Arabs to Islam, including in battle) He grew to perceive that there were irreconcilable differences between their religion and his, ...."especially when the belief in his prophetic mission became the criterion of a true Muslim".....

Those are two completely different statements. But they are not mutually exclusive. Are you trying to make a point, or just dribbling on your keyboard?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Zionism
Reply #704 - May 20^th, 2023 at 12:38pm

freediver wrote on May 18^th, 2023 at 4:57pm:

Quote:

Explain how "He slaughtered the (Jewish) men and rode off on the (Jewish) women" equates to "Muhammad became increasingly hostile to the Jews over time (ie during the time of his conversion of Arabs to Islam, including in battle) He grew to perceive that there were irreconcilable differences between their religion and his, ...."especially when the belief in his prophetic mission became the criterion of a true Muslim".....

Those are two completely different statements.

Of course they are different, that is the point: YOUR statement is untrue garbage. Where is your brain?

Quote:

But they are not mutually exclusive. Are you trying to make a point, or just dribbling on your keyboard?

The irony.....

Get it through your thick head: Muhammad fought (and won) against ALL 'infidels' in Arabia, including Jews.

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