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freediver

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Re: Zionism
Reply #735 - May 27^th, 2023 at 7:47am

Here is one of your lies. You even went to the trouble of highlighting it for me.

thegreatdivide wrote on May 24^th, 2023 at 9:45pm:

freediver wrote on May 24^th, 2023 at 5:36pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on May 22^nd, 2023 at 12:51pm:

freediver wrote on May 20^th, 2023 at 5:52pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on May 20^th, 2023 at 5:21pm:

freediver wrote on May 20^th, 2023 at 5:07pm:

Quote:

So....after previous battles in which Jews had shown themselves to be infidels

Which battles would they be?

The ones in Mecca, before the city accepted Islam.

So Muhammad slaughtered this tribe of Jews after the battles in Mecca?

That's correct,

Do you still think this is correct?

Yes, i think it's correct

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Zionism
Reply #736 - May 27^th, 2023 at 1:55pm

freediver wrote on May 27^th, 2023 at 7:47am:

Here is one of your lies. You even went to the trouble of highlighting it for me.

Ok, now show us it was a lie, by telling us when and in what circumstances "Muhammad slaughtered a Jewish tribe which had surrendered".

Over to you, now's your chance to redeem yourself from your well-known penchant for fraudulent argumentation ..."FTW"...

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freediver

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Re: Zionism
Reply #737 - May 27^th, 2023 at 2:39pm

thegreatdivide wrote on May 27^th, 2023 at 1:55pm:

freediver wrote on May 27^th, 2023 at 7:47am:

Here is one of your lies. You even went to the trouble of highlighting it for me.

Ok, now show us it was a lie, by telling us when and in what circumstances "Muhammad slaughtered a Jewish tribe which had surrendered".

Over to you, now's your chance to redeem yourself from your well-known penchant for fraudulent argumentation ..."FTW"...

You made it up. Therefor it is a lie.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Zionism
Reply #738 - May 28^th, 2023 at 4:02pm

freediver wrote on May 27^th, 2023 at 2:39pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on May 27^th, 2023 at 1:55pm:

freediver wrote on May 27^th, 2023 at 7:47am:

Here is one of your lies. You even went to the trouble of highlighting it for me.

Ok, now show us it was a lie, by telling us when and in what circumstances "Muhammad slaughtered a Jewish tribe which had surrendered".

Over to you, now's your chance to redeem yourself from your well-known penchant for fraudulent argumentation ..."FTW"...

You made it up. Therefor it is a lie.

I linked the wiki article showing Muhammad's first great battle against 'infidels' (not exclusively Jews) was at Badr -whether or not Badr is near Mecca where he began preaching Islam.

But you have now resorted to your infamous full-scale fraudulent mode of debating; the facts are (from wiki);

1. Muhammad began his mission in his home town Mecca, after receiving the Islamic revelation in a cave near Mecca.

2. Badr was Muhammad's first great battle in his mission to establish Islam in Arabia.

3. You are declining to reveal when and why he "slaughtered Jews who had surrendered".

Stand condemned by your own refusal to link to a wiki article supporting your thesis, as I have done re points 1 and 2 above

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freediver

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Re: Zionism
Reply #739 - May 28^th, 2023 at 8:50pm

thegreatdivide wrote on May 20^th, 2023 at 3:36pm:

freediver wrote on May 20^th, 2023 at 2:22pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on May 20^th, 2023 at 1:36pm:

freediver wrote on May 20^th, 2023 at 12:56pm:

Quote:

Muhammad fought (and won) against ALL 'infidels' in Arabia, including Jews.

On one occasion, a Jewish tribe of Medina surrendered to him unconditionally. He executed every adult male in the tribe. Some 800 of them, though being a Muslim he lost count. He determined which males were adults by inspecting their genitals.

Are you aware of Muhammad ever treating non-Jewish infidels the same way?

er...the losers in all battles are "executed" in one way or another.

There was no battle.

So....after previous battles in which Jews had shown themselves to be infidels,

thegreatdivide wrote on May 22^nd, 2023 at 12:51pm:

freediver wrote on May 20^th, 2023 at 5:52pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on May 20^th, 2023 at 5:21pm:

freediver wrote on May 20^th, 2023 at 5:07pm:

Quote:

So....after previous battles in which Jews had shown themselves to be infidels

Which battles would they be?

The ones in Mecca, before the city accepted Islam.

So Muhammad slaughtered this tribe of Jews after the battles in Mecca?

That's correct,

Do you still think this is correct?

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« Last Edit: May 28^th, 2023 at 9:09pm by freediver »

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Zionism
Reply #740 - May 29^th, 2023 at 11:43am

freediver wrote on May 28^th, 2023 at 8:50pm:

So Muhammad slaughtered this tribe of Jews after the battles in Mecca?

Do you still think this is correct?

Er...I already conceded I don't know when and in what circumstances what you say happened actually happened - which is why I am asking you for the wiki article re that "slaughter of surrendeing Jews".

What I DO know is:

1. Muhammad began his mission in his home town Mecca, after receiving the Islamic revelation in a cave near Mecca.

2. Badr was Muhammad's first great battle against infidels, during his mission to establish Islam in Arabia.

3. You are declining to reveal when and why he "slaughtered Jews who had surrendered".

Stand condemned by your own refusal to link to a wiki article supporting your thesis, as I have done re points 1 and 2 above

Now, Mr Frauddiver, do try responding without asking another question, in lieu of presentation of facts.....

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49224 At my desk.	Re: Zionism Reply #741 - May 29^th, 2023 at 4:11pm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Banu_Qurayza
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thegreatdivide

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Re: Zionism
Reply #742 - May 31^st, 2023 at 1:00pm

freediver wrote on May 29^th, 2023 at 4:11pm:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Banu_Qurayza

Thank you; and congrats, you are prepared to back your argument with legitimate sources after all.

"The Invasion of Banu Qurayza[1] took place in Dhul Qa‘dah during January of 627 CE (5 AH) and followed on from the Battle of the Trench (Muir, 1861).[4]"

Note: 3 years after Muhammad's first battle (Badr) against 'infidels' in Arabia.

"Three Jewish leaders from the tribe of Banu al-Nadir, three Jewish leaders from the tribe of Wa'il, and various other Jewish groups and leaders united and pressured Banu Qurayza to betray their agreement to Muhammad.

.......I am not denying Muhammad was different to ANY warrior-leader with a cause; punishment for such treachery of course would be severe. Even Moses slaughtered his own Jewish compatriots for creating and worshipping a statue of a golden bull....

So...you trying to prove Islam is particularly evil is absurd; the Jewish OT frequently contravenes even modern law, including its mythology of 'a God given right to The Promised Land'.

And last time I looked, the punishment for adultery is death by stoning.....

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« Last Edit: May 31^st, 2023 at 1:05pm by thegreatdivide »

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freediver

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Re: Zionism
Reply #743 - Jun 1^st, 2023 at 7:30am

The Quran and Hadiths have a lot of nasty propaganda targeted at Jews specifically. This reflects Muhammad's hostility towards Jews specifically, and his eagerness to slaughter them specifically. He used revelations from god to justify slaughtering Jews specifically. The attitude of today's Muslims towards Jews reflects Muhammad's actions, words and religious texts.

That is why so many Muslims fled Israel, as even your own evidence states. They believed their own propaganda, so it makes perfectly sense that they would be frothing at the mouth at the prospect of Jews being in control.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Zionism
Reply #744 - Jun 1^st, 2023 at 12:19pm

freediver wrote on Jun 1^st, 2023 at 7:30am:

The Quran and Hadiths have a lot of nasty propaganda targeted at Jews specifically. This reflects Muhammad's hostility towards Jews specifically,

Of course; back-sliding Jews often killed their own Prophets (of Allah/God), as recorded in the OT.

Quote:

and his eagerness to slaughter them specifically.

..when they treacherously reneged on previous agreements with him, as per your linked article.

Quote:

He used revelations from god to justify slaughtering Jews specifically.

No doubt he WAS propagandizing with that specific time-based claim, to justify his anger for their treachery.

Quote:

The attitude of today's Muslims towards Jews reflects Muhammad's actions, words and religious texts.

Especially when Jews in our time decided to claim land which had belonged to Islam since soon after the founding of Islam.

Quote:

That is why so many Muslims fled Israel, as even your own evidence states.

Wtong - the fleeing is real, but your idea of motivation is wrong; look at the populations fleeing Sudan, and those who fled Ukraine....

Quote:

They believed their own propaganda,

Timeless 'Revelations' from God are not 'propaganda'....even if false.

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freediver

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Re: Zionism
Reply #745 - Jun 1^st, 2023 at 7:56pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 1^st, 2023 at 12:19pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 1^st, 2023 at 7:30am:

The Quran and Hadiths have a lot of nasty propaganda targeted at Jews specifically. This reflects Muhammad's hostility towards Jews specifically,

Of course; back-sliding Jews often killed their own Prophets (of Allah/God), as recorded in the OT.

Quote:

and his eagerness to slaughter them specifically.

..when they treacherously reneged on previous agreements with him, as per your linked article.

Quote:

He used revelations from god to justify slaughtering Jews specifically.

No doubt he WAS propagandizing with that specific time-based claim, to justify his anger for their treachery.

Quote:

The attitude of today's Muslims towards Jews reflects Muhammad's actions, words and religious texts.

Especially when Jews in our time decided to claim land which had belonged to Islam since soon after the founding of Islam.

Quote:

That is why so many Muslims fled Israel, as even your own evidence states.

Wtong - the fleeing is real, but your idea of motivation is wrong; look at the populations fleeing Sudan, and those who fled Ukraine....

Quote:

They believed their own propaganda,

Timeless 'Revelations' from God are not 'propaganda'....even if false.

Wow. You seem remarkably eager to excuse genocide. I'm pretty sure Hitler had similar sounding excuses.

Would you describe as a specific time-based claim?

https://alsalafiyyah.github.io/hadith-on-stones-will-speak

It was reported that Ibn ‘Umar (may Allah be pleased with them both) said: “I heard the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) saying: ‘You (i.e. Muslims) will fight against the Jews and you will gain victory over them. The stones will (betray them) saying: ‘O ‘Abdullah (i.e. slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him.’ 1 This Hadith was reported by Al-Bukhari.

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wombatwoody

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Re: Zionism
Reply #746 - Jun 2^nd, 2023 at 5:50pm

Quote:

"I've never seen a president - I don't care who he is - stand up to them [the Israelis]. It just boggles your mind. They always get what they want. The Israelis know what's going on all the time. I got to the point where I wasn't writing anything down. If the American people understood what grip those people have on our government, they would rise up in arms. Our citizens don't have any idea what goes on."

Admiral Thomas H. Moorer, Fmr. Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff. (See Washington Report 12/1999, p.124 quoting from Andrew Hurley's book, One Nation Under Israel)

And:

"You and I both know the powerful influence of AIPAC, which is not designed to promote peace. Their purpose in life is to protect and defend the policies of the Israeli government and to make sure those policies are approved in the United States and in our Congress and they're very effective at it. Any member of Congress who's looking to be re-elected couldn't possibly say that they would take a balanced position between Israel and the Palestinians, or that they would insist on Israel withdrawing to international borders, or that they would dedicate themselves to protect the human rights of Palestinians - it's very likely that they would not be re-elected."

Jimmy Carter, Thirty Ninth President of the United States of America, as quoted by Eleanor Clift, "Last Word: Jimmy Carter Revisiting 'Apartheid'", Newsweek International, (25 December 2006 - 1 January 2007)

'Former United States Senator J. William Fulbright, Chairman of the powerful Senate Foreign Relations Committee, stated repeatedly in 1973, "Israel controls the (U.S.) Senate." Senator James G. Abourezk of South Dakota told reporters at a Colorado Jefferson-Jackson Day dinner where he was keynote speaker in 1977, "as a United States Senator, I have sworn an oath to uphold the government of the United States,
but I never dreamed I would be required to swear allegiance to any other government." He continued, "the United States is likely to become, if it has not already become, a captive state of its client state." Senator Fulbright was driven from office by the very lobby he tried to expose, a testimony to the power of the Israeli lobby (Senator Abourezk served only one term).'

- Andrew Hurley, One Nation Under Israel

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We are benefiting from ... the attack on the Twin Towers and Pentagon, and the American struggle in Iraq.

Benjamin Netanyahu, quoted in Ma’ariv, 16 April 2008

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Zionism
Reply #747 - Jun 3^rd, 2023 at 2:02pm

freediver wrote on Jun 1^st, 2023 at 7:56pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 1^st, 2023 at 12:19pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 1^st, 2023 at 7:30am:

The Quran and Hadiths have a lot of nasty propaganda targeted at Jews specifically. This reflects Muhammad's hostility towards Jews specifically,

Of course; back-sliding Jews often killed their own Prophets (of Allah/God), as recorded in the OT.

Quote:

and his eagerness to slaughter them specifically.

..when they treacherously reneged on previous agreements with him, as per your linked article.

Quote:

He used revelations from god to justify slaughtering Jews specifically.

No doubt he WAS propagandizing with that specific time-based claim, to justify his anger for their treachery.

Quote:

The attitude of today's Muslims towards Jews reflects Muhammad's actions, words and religious texts.

Especially when Jews in our time decided to claim land which had belonged to Islam since soon after the founding of Islam.

Quote:

That is why so many Muslims fled Israel, as even your own evidence states.

Wtong - the fleeing is real, but your idea of motivation is wrong; look at the populations fleeing Sudan, and those who fled Ukraine....

Quote:

They believed their own propaganda,

Timeless 'Revelations' from God are not 'propaganda'....even if false.

Wow. You seem remarkably eager to excuse genocide. I'm pretty sure Hitler had similar sounding excuses.

A classic response from a blind ideologue; I have pointed out Jews claimed part of (now all) Palestine against the wishes of the Arab world, just like Hitler claimed the Sudenten Lands. ..

Quote:

Would you describe as a specific time-based claim?

https://alsalafiyyah.github.io/hadith-on-stones-will-speak

It was reported that Ibn ‘Umar (may Allah be pleased with them both) said: “I heard the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) saying: ‘You (i.e. Muslims) will fight against the Jews and you will gain victory over them. The stones will (betray them) saying: ‘O ‘Abdullah (i.e. slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him.’ 1 This Hadith was reported by Al-Bukhari.

I referred to the specific claim that God authorized slaughter of Jews who had surrendered, because of their treachery in breaking an earlier agreement - just as Moses did more than a millenia earlier...

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freediver

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Re: Zionism
Reply #748 - Jun 3^rd, 2023 at 2:09pm

My apologies. I didn't realise you were merely attempting to change the subject.

The Quran and Hadiths have a lot of nasty propaganda targeted at Jews specifically. This reflects Muhammad's hostility towards Jews specifically, and his eagerness to slaughter them specifically. He used revelations from god to justify slaughtering Jews specifically (not specific Jews, all Jews). The attitude of today's Muslims towards Jews reflects Muhammad's actions, words and religious texts.

That is why so many Muslims fled Israel, as even your own evidence states. They believed their own propaganda, so it makes perfectly sense that they would be frothing at the mouth at the prospect of Jews being in control.

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Laugh till you cry

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Re: Zionism
Reply #749 - Jun 3^rd, 2023 at 2:21pm

freediver wrote on Jun 3^rd, 2023 at 2:09pm:

My apologies. I didn't realise you were merely attempting to change the subject.

The Quran and Hadiths have a lot of nasty propaganda targeted at Jews specifically. This reflects Muhammad's hostility towards Jews specifically, and his eagerness to slaughter them specifically. He used revelations from god to justify slaughtering Jews specifically (not specific Jews, all Jews). The attitude of today's Muslims towards Jews reflects Muhammad's actions, words and religious texts.

That is why so many Muslims fled Israel, as even your own evidence states. They believed their own propaganda, so it makes perfectly sense that they would be frothing at the mouth at the prospect of Jews being in control.

Israel did not exist until after the genocide against Palestinians.

Jews lived peacefully among Muslims in many Muslim countries until Jews committed genocide against Palestinians.

The genocide of Palestinians was a holocaust.

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Please don't thank me. Effusive fawning and obeisance of disciples, mendicants, and foot-kissers embarrass me.

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